606v2 picks the best Irish match day 22: STARTING FRONT ROW

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 13 Jul 2011, 2:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hey guys,

First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.

The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

FRONT ROWS:
Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

HEALY: Destructive in the loose be it in offence or defence. A real live wire with ball in hand due to his pace and strength he frequently breaks tackles. An improving player in the scrum, note he has come up against the likes of Clermont, Toulouse, Leicester and Northhampton this season and Greg Feek has been with him all season. Discipline can be an issue however.
ROSS: Best scrummager in Ireland. Is doing a good job at keeping the no.3 shirt. Is an improving player in the loose and has lost a good bit of weight. He is one of the ones who does a lot of the donkey work in the pack and hits a surprising amount of rucks when we have the ball, less so when we don't.
BUCKLEY: Very inconsitent but can be devestating due to his size, strength and soft hands. Excellent counter rucker and ball carrier where he can suck in multiple defenders and then offload with skill and precision. Not a great scrummaging force. Could be an excellent option off the bench.
COURT: Versatile prop who can and has played either side of the scrum at International level. Not the most destructive in the loose or in the scrum but is solid, doesn't give away silly penalties or make silly handling or defensive mistakes. Not much of an impact player but solid and reliable.
BEST: One of the team leaders, excellent work on the floor hitting rucks and slowing down opposition ball. Clever footballer with good skills and when needed runs good support lines. Not the greatest lineout technician but working with the Irish team for an extend period of time will help this and he is a good scrummager.
CRONIN: Exceptionally quick for a front row. Good footballing skills and good defender also. Not great in the lineout but like Best maybe time with the international setup will help with this. Better in the loose than in the tight and is still on a learning curve. Not the greatest scrummager but by no means the worst either.
FLANNERY: Out of rugby for a long time but brings manic aggression and exceptional lineout throwing. Not as good in the scrum or in the tight as Best but still a tough athlete. Due to being a ball carrier we would need another work horse in the pack if he was included. Excellent tackler and has good ball skills but can be indisciplined at times.

Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

by MMC Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:18 pm

You forgot to add Buckley at 3 to the poll options pete. Sure everyone will vote Ross but still...

by valjester Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:19 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ok I get you that makes sense however it's harder to stop the ball carriers if the ball they get is quick. The workhorses and Donkeys are the ones that will provide us this quicker ball.

Hopefully.

Yes but the best players, like heaslip and read, are able to do both. I think Ireland are well equiped with all our backrowers being carriers as well as healy and poc, who I know is not the best but if used well he can turn bad ball into quick clean ball for the better carriers.

by **rodders** Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:22 pm

Actually it was scary Boyne, you're lucky you weren't there at the time...Stag tried to disagree and hasn't been seen since.....

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:29 pm

Haha this article is such a fail it's stopped being funny! At least this one is somewhat clear cut. Promise I will get the next one done properly!!! Sorry

Yeah Val agree with that, my one quip with POC is that he takes it standing still and more a less leans into the defence and then hits the deck. Tuohy by comparrison stays tall and drives through the defence while looking for an offload but then again he isn't POC and doesn't have all of his other skills.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:31 pm

roddersm wrote:Actually it was scary Boyne, you're lucky you weren't there at the time...Stag tried to disagree and hasn't been seen since.....

Hush or I'll have to get rid of you too!!! Whistle

by **rodders** Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:32 pm

:run2:

by MMC Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:34 pm

roddersm wrote: :run2:

Best use of that smiley I've seen since the opening of 606v2! Laugh

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:35 pm

I've got others who work for me you can run but we will catch you!!!
:run1:

by D24tress Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:40 pm

actually must go ask for an angry mob smiley

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:42 pm

Haha! I think I'd have had a few of them directed my way this afternoon!
Gulp!

So, thoughts on the Flannery balancing or unbalancing the pack issue?

by Tayto Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:42 pm

Iv'e also gone for Healy,Best,Ross.
By far the best option we have for the front row.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:45 pm

Tayto wrote:Iv'e also gone for Healy,Best,Ross.
By far the best option we have for the front row.

I agree, even just those 3 seem quite well balanced as a unit themselves. Add Fla and you have two manic ADHD ball carriers and a workhorse who will be out on his feet.

by D24tress Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:48 pm

with the hookers i think we should really be thinking about getting a solid 60 mins out of them and then bringing on a replacement

Best can get threw alot of work and fresh legs will be key

by red_stag Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:52 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Haha! I think I'd have had a few of them directed my way this afternoon!
Gulp!

So, thoughts on the Flannery balancing or unbalancing the pack issue?

I'd agree with that. Its the reason I chose Best. Though maybe Flannery and Jennings. Or Best and a ball carrying backrow.

by Boyne Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:54 pm

roddersm wrote:Actually it was scary Boyne, you're lucky you weren't there at the time...Stag tried to disagree and hasn't been seen since.....

by Boyne Wed 13 Jul 2011, 4:54 pm

Wheres me laughing smiley??

by MMC Wed 13 Jul 2011, 5:14 pm

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

With the exception of McFadden (who I voted for) losing out to Fitzgerald I think we've gotten that squad bang on with regard to what Kidney himself will pick.

p.s. pete, still no option to vote for Buckley at 3 I see... Whistle

by valjester Wed 13 Jul 2011, 5:17 pm

MMC wrote:Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

With the exception of McFadden (who I voted for) losing out to Fitzgerald I think we've gotten that squad bang on with regard to what Kidney himself will pick.

p.s. pete, still no option to vote for Buckley at 3 I see...

If the split is right, the only thing wrong is as you say fitz and depending on his injury jennings.

by MMC Wed 13 Jul 2011, 5:19 pm

Interestingly, if the split is wrong and Kidney goes for a 17/13 split, both McFadden AND Jones will lose out to Fitzgerald.

by Gibson Wed 13 Jul 2011, 5:19 pm

Its all very well having a team full of ball-carriers, but its usefulness is miminised, if they cant offload in the tackle. Like NZ can.

Deccie needs to spend a lot of time enabling our boys to do that more proficiently. Severely lacking in that dept, imo.

by valjester Wed 13 Jul 2011, 5:20 pm

Gibson wrote:Its all very well having a team full of ball-carriers, but its usefulness is miminised, if they cant offload in the tackle. Like NZ can.

Deccie needs to spend a lot of time enabling our boys to do that more proficiently. Severely lacking in that dept, imo.

You can hardly blame him if they can't do it.

by Gibson Wed 13 Jul 2011, 5:35 pm

Not blaming him Val. Blaming the academies. Blaming the provinces. He just needs to work on it with them. The provinces need to work on it with them. Kills me everytime I see opportunities wasted. The Kiwis are masters at it.

by Irish Curry Wed 13 Jul 2011, 5:39 pm

[quote="valjester"][quote="Gibson"]Its all very well having a team full of ball-carriers, but its usefulness is miminised, if they cant offload in the tackle. Like NZ can.

Deccie needs to spend a lot of time enabling our boys to do that more proficiently. Severely lacking in that dept, imo. [/quote]

You can hardly blame him if they can't do it.[/quote]

No you blame the coachs and by exstension Kidney its a basic skill which needs to be worded on

by valjester Wed 13 Jul 2011, 5:50 pm

Irish Curry wrote:
valjester wrote:
Gibson wrote:Its all very well having a team full of ball-carriers, but its usefulness is miminised, if they cant offload in the tackle. Like NZ can.

Deccie needs to spend a lot of time enabling our boys to do that more proficiently. Severely lacking in that dept, imo.

You can hardly blame him if they can't do it.

No you blame the coachs and by exstension Kidney its a basic skill which needs to be worded on

At provincial level, its not the national coaches job to work on their basic skills.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 13 Jul 2011, 6:17 pm

Part of me wants Flannery. I think he was brilliant. He was the best hooker in Europe. But this is 2011. He's been out with injuries for to long. He might even get injured again if he plays in the warm ups.

It has to be Best at hooker. I'd want Flannery on the bench though if he's fit to play. Cronin has no big game experience and his throwing needs a lot of work. It's worse than Bests. And Bests isn't that bad actually. He does seem to crack under pressure though. If that happens, bring Flannery off the bench. If he's fit to play.

by Gibson Wed 13 Jul 2011, 6:21 pm

MMC wrote:Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

With the exception of McFadden (who I voted for) losing out to Fitzgerald I think we've gotten that squad bang on with regard to what Kidney himself will pick.

p.s. pete, still no option to vote for Buckley at 3 I see...

Totally agree with most all of that squad, tbh. And if Jones does make it - more power to him. And us with him.

Also feel that there may be a Paddy Wallace/Mcfadden discussion in Kidneys Coaching team.It should be. If Darcy is not up to it - McFadden is in for sure. I wouldn't mind that at all.

So, if ROG or Sexton got injured... we then call for Wallace as replacement standoff - mid RWC?. It is in the IRB RWC Rules to do so. For 2 players - for medical or compassionate reasons. Worth a thought like. Default backup plan and it opens the door for another option.

When Deccie picks his 30, that's me. Im 100% behind him & the squad. No more selection discussion. Green shirt on and phhok de begrudgers.

Are we there yet?

by valjester Wed 13 Jul 2011, 6:49 pm

Gibson wrote:
MMC wrote:Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

With the exception of McFadden (who I voted for) losing out to Fitzgerald I think we've gotten that squad bang on with regard to what Kidney himself will pick.

p.s. pete, still no option to vote for Buckley at 3 I see...

Totally agree with most all of that squad, tbh. And if Jones does make it - more power to him. And us with him.

Also feel that there may be a Paddy Wallace/Mcfadden discussion in Kidneys Coaching team.It should be. If Darcy is not up to it - McFadden is in for sure. I wouldn't mind that at all.

So, if ROG or Sexton got injured... we then call for Wallace as replacement standoff - mid RWC?. It is in the IRB RWC Rules to do so. For 2 players - for medical or compassionate reasons. Worth a thought like. Default backup plan and it opens the door for another option.

When Deccie picks his 30, that's me. Im 100% behind him & the squad. No more selection discussion. Green shirt on and phhok de begrudgers.

Are we there yet?

I don't think there will be much of a discussion over wallace v mcfadden. mcfadden will be against the wings/15s, he hasn't played in the centre for Ireland and hasn't played there much for leinster this year. I thought he had a poor enough game in the magners due to the fact that he looked like a wing shoe horned into 12. I think that is probably due to having spent the season mainly as a winger because he has put in brilliant displays in the centre in the past. If darcy is injured wallace will come in, and as has been said in the past he has performed well in the sh before against the big teams.

I suppose there is also the possibility that kidney could put bowe or earls in the centre with bod if darcy doesn't make it. But I don't think there has been any talk from the Irish camp of darcy being a doubt for the wc. Another thing in favour of wallace is the fact that kidney has known him since he played under19 and obviously rates him.

by Thomond Wed 13 Jul 2011, 6:54 pm

Healy,Best,Ross. Flannery could easily make it in though if he proves he has fitness and form Wink

by Gibson Wed 13 Jul 2011, 7:09 pm

valjester wrote:
Gibson wrote:
MMC wrote:Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

With the exception of McFadden (who I voted for) losing out to Fitzgerald I think we've gotten that squad bang on with regard to what Kidney himself will pick.

p.s. pete, still no option to vote for Buckley at 3 I see...

Totally agree with most all of that squad, tbh. And if Jones does make it - more power to him. And us with him.

Also feel that there may be a Paddy Wallace/Mcfadden discussion in Kidneys Coaching team.It should be. If Darcy is not up to it - McFadden is in for sure. I wouldn't mind that at all.

So, if ROG or Sexton got injured... we then call for Wallace as replacement standoff - mid RWC?. It is in the IRB RWC Rules to do so. For 2 players - for medical or compassionate reasons. Worth a thought like. Default backup plan and it opens the door for another option.

When Deccie picks his 30, that's me. Im 100% behind him & the squad. No more selection discussion. Green shirt on and phhok de begrudgers.

Are we there yet?

I don't think there will be much of a discussion over wallace v mcfadden. mcfadden will be against the wings/15s, he hasn't played in the centre for Ireland and hasn't played there much for leinster this year. I thought he had a poor enough game in the magners due to the fact that he looked like a wing shoe horned into 12. I think that is probably due to having spent the season mainly as a winger because he has put in brilliant displays in the centre in the past. If darcy is injured wallace will come in, and as has been said in the past he has performed well in the sh before against the big teams.

I suppose there is also the possibility that kidney could put bowe or earls in the centre with bod if darcy doesn't make it. But I don't think there has been any talk from the Irish camp of darcy being a doubt for the wc. Another thing in favour of wallace is the fact that kidney has known him since he played under19 and obviously rates him.

Good post Val. But Mcfadden is a far superior footballer. No matter which way you look at it.

But yeah, Deccie likes him and knows him for yonks. Id back money that he'll pick PW. But, my alternative is still an outside option for the table. Hes a Cute Hoor... it will cross his mind.

by valjester Wed 13 Jul 2011, 7:35 pm

Gibson wrote:

Good post Val. But Mcfadden is a far superior footballer. No matter which way you look at it.

But yeah, Deccie likes him and knows him for yonks. Id back money that he'll pick PW. But, my alternative is still an outside option for the table. Hes a Cute Hoor... it will cross his mind.

I think you are selling wallace short, he is a fine footballer. Kidney always seem to get his teams set up well for knock out rugby so I'd expect Ireland to do better than previous world cups even if that is saying much.

by **Notch** Wed 13 Jul 2011, 8:29 pm

McFadden isn't a superior footballer Rolling Eyes

Passing, offloading, kicking? He's not better at these things. He's a better runner with ball in hand, he's faster- Wallace has the upper hand in the skill stakes.

I really don't believe you can say we can't bring inexperienced players to the World Cup and then advocate McFadden over Wallace. It's contradictory.

I meam, you've poured scorn on the idea of Murray and Jones traveling but Jones has more top level experience at 15 than McFadden has at 12. All but one of the high profile games he's played in have been on the wing.

by Tayto Wed 13 Jul 2011, 8:47 pm

Notch wrote:McFadden isn't a superior footballer

Passing, offloading, kicking? He's not better at these things. He's a better runner with ball in hand, he's faster- Wallace has the upper hand in the skill stakes.

I really don't believe you can say we can't bring inexperienced players to the World Cup and then advocate McFadden over Wallace. It's contradictory.

I meam, you've poured scorn on the idea of Murray and Jones traveling but Jones has more top level experience at 15 than McFadden has at 12. All but one of the high profile games he's played in have been on the wing.

+1

No comparison between Wallace and McFadden in the footballing stakes,
Wallace wins hands down.

It's between McFadden and Fitzgerald for the last seat on the plane.

Notch,
I reckon both Jones and Murray will travel.

by Gibson Wed 13 Jul 2011, 9:01 pm

Howya Notch. Slowin up there man. Just pointing out realistic options open to Kidney. Wink

Alright Taaytoo? Still dreaming I see, mo chara?

So, tell the class. What did Chilli Con Kearney do to ya huh?

He's too purdy roysh?

Was it anything to do with what he said about Munster players not giving their all for Ireland back in 2009? Then we won a SLAM on the back of it? Thought so. He can't help being a born leader and rugby superstar.

Give im a break.

by **Notch** Wed 13 Jul 2011, 9:06 pm

We can't have one rule for some players and a different rule for others I'm afraid. I am a McFadden fan. I don't think he should be in the 22 unless there are injuries and I'd say there's a very good chance he won't travel at all. He should start against Scotland at 12, with Wallace starting the next week. Then we'll have a better idea of where he is.

The reason is the same reason I'd leave Jones and Murray at home; experience. We've spent three years building towards this. There may be room for one bolter. It probably would be McFadden with his versatility and his talent. But he has to be very special in the warm-ups to make the team imo.

by Gibson Wed 13 Jul 2011, 9:21 pm

Notch wrote:We can't have one rule for some players and a different rule for others I'm afraid. I am a McFadden fan. I don't think he should be in the 22 unless there are injuries and I'd say there's a very good chance he won't travel at all. He should start against Scotland at 12, with Wallace starting the next week. Then we'll have a better idea of where he is.

The reason is the same reason I'd leave Jones and Murray at home; experience. We've spent three years building towards this. There may be room for one bolter. It probably would be McFadden with his versatility and his talent. But he has to be very special in the warm-ups to make the team imo.

I agree with all of that.

by Gibson Wed 13 Jul 2011, 10:00 pm

Notch
"McFadden isn't a superior footballer

Passing, offloading, kicking? He's not better at these things. He's a better runner with ball in hand, he's faster- Wallace has the upper hand in the skill stakes." <- check with the old school 606 editing.

Dont agree with all of that though. Passing - close. Offloading - ok, Paddy has sweet hands. Kicking - close. And yes he's faster and stronger.

But the big differ is - Paddy has done it for Ireland before. He's been tested down South and has stood up and shone. That's the big differ for me. Its A RWC. Little time left for bolters now. Although, to me - Mcfadden would not be a bolter.

by valjester Wed 13 Jul 2011, 10:07 pm

Gibson wrote:Notch
"McFadden isn't a superior footballer

Passing, offloading, kicking? He's not better at these things. He's a better runner with ball in hand, he's faster- Wallace has the upper hand in the skill stakes." <- check with the old school 606 editing.

Dont agree with all of that though. Passing - close. Offloading - ok, Paddy has sweet hands. Kicking - close. And yes he's faster and stronger.

But the big differ is - Paddy has done it for Ireland before. He's been tested down South and has stood up and shone. That's the big differ for me. Its A RWC. Little time left for bolters now. Although, to me - Mcfadden would not be a bolter.

'bod try v australia' look at the pass wallace throws in this try and tell me that passing is close with a straight face. No other Irish back has passing as good as wallace, mcfadden is a better goal kicker but wallace is miles ahead in terms of game control.

by **Notch** Wed 13 Jul 2011, 10:08 pm

Old school 606 editing Gibbo? laughing

I've said I believe Murray, McFadden and Jones should all be coming into the Ireland team in the next Six Nations. Gradually coming in.

Wallace knows rugby at this level. He's had his good games and he's had his difficult games. But he knows what it's about. This may be his big chance with the D'Arcy injury. His big last chance.

by Gibson Wed 13 Jul 2011, 10:54 pm

Notch wrote:Old school 606 editing Gibbo?

I've said I believe Murray, McFadden and Jones should all be coming into the Ireland team in the next Six Nations. Gradually coming in.

Wallace knows rugby at this level. He's had his good games and he's had his difficult games. But he knows what it's about. This may be his big chance with the D'Arcy injury. His big last chance.

That's just about the reality of it. As it stands. Still can't quite group McFadden with Jones and Murray, though. He's well ahead of them. Played twice in the 6-N. Paddy was left on the bench. That's fairly current. May be a pointer. Dunno. :dressedgreenwhiteandorange:

by **Notch** Wed 13 Jul 2011, 11:14 pm

He played out of position in the back three when Horgan, Trimble, Bowe, Kearney and Murphy were all unavailable. When we got some players back he didn't make the 22. He wasn't included in the training squad for the Six Nations until injuries kicked in remember.

You'd hardly start Paddy on the wing Wink

That experience does stand to him, of course it does. First cap is a big psychological test. He was a bit shaky in those games and it was right that Bowe and Trimble came back but I'm sure he learned a lot from it.

Still don't know anything about how he is at 12? Test level. This is where being able to say the guy has broken into his provincial team at 12 is so important. Course, he hasn't. With D'Arcy doubtful, they need to have a look at Wallace AND McFadden. I'd play McFadden against Scotland and probably Connacht, Wallace against France and probably again against France with targeting D'Arcy (who is fighting to be fit for that second France match) to get back against England.

by Gibson Thu 14 Jul 2011, 12:49 am

In the interests of future banter. No comment

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 14 Jul 2011, 7:39 am

Darcy making it back has a big question mark over it realistically. If e makes it back for one game (which he probabl won't start will have to come off the bench if even in the 22) can he make the squad?

I think McF is awesome really do but Wallace is tried and tested and can deliever.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 14 Jul 2011, 9:27 am

Is the fact that Alexander is out of the reckoning also a big plus re: the Irish frontrow? From what I gather he was one of the reasons the Aussie's felt they could keep parity at scrumtime.

Does this mean that we should really be targetting their scrum now?

by MMC Thu 14 Jul 2011, 9:43 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:IDoes this mean that we should really be targetting their scrum now?

Like the French did? I don't think we should put any more of an emphasis on it as if Alexander were playing. To beat Australia we'll need to target a lot more than their scrum. Cutting down the space we give Genia and Cooper, along with getting to each ruck within a split second of when they form are just two tactics that'll serve us much better.

Added to those, keeping the ball in hand as much as possible and direct running (as opposed to shipping it wide at every available opportunity) will go along way towards competing with them.

by red_stag Thu 14 Jul 2011, 9:47 am

Beat Australia:

- Force them into long drawn out mauls rather than quick rucks
- Target their 10-12 channel in a bid to lure in other defenders
- Move the ball away from Pocock in attack
- Use our set pieces to launch first phase attacks

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 14 Jul 2011, 9:58 am

MMC and Stag-

yeah I agree with more a less all of your tactics there, it's a comfort to know however that we may/should have an advantage in the scrum, if it means winning 2/4 penalties off the scrum I'd be happy cos realistically that could save us on our line or get us 3 points inside their half.

MMC I think your final point is the most important, we need to hit them in waves of carries not just close to the ruck but in midfield before we even think of going wide. Stretching the Aussie's isn't going to happen without quite a large number of phases.

Keeping them up in mauls is another important tactic, making Best's inclusion over Fla quite important IMO as he has played this system before.

by MMC Thu 14 Jul 2011, 10:03 am

red_stag wrote:
- Force them into long drawn out mauls rather than quick rucks

We certainly have the personnel to do this if we choose Healy, Best, DOC, O'Connell and Wallace (one of his biggest strengths IMO). This would also help to negate Pocock's influence.

red_stag wrote:
- Target their 10-12 channel in a bid to lure in other defenders

If we plan to do this then we have to play Trimble and Bowe on the wings. Our centres aren't your typical crashball, strong running centres. Earls is more effective when given space too so having Trimble or Bowe creating a big gap with the likes of Earls joining the line late from fullback could work very well for us. I'd imagine the best way to bring about this scenario would be directly from the set piece (as you said in point 4).

red_stag wrote:
- Move the ball away from Pocock in attack

This one is probably the one that'll be the most difficult. Apart from limiting the amount of rucks due to an increased number of mauls, or a riskier offloading game I think we'll struggle here.

red_stag wrote:
- Use our set pieces to launch first phase attacks

It has been pointed out before that Australia tend to be easier to expose from first phase ball and certainly this is something we should aim to do. But it's something that any team worth its salt will do in an effort to win a game. I don't see us getting much change from their lineout but I would like to see us try to vary it a bit more than we usually do. A short ball to the front and straight back to the hooker who then attacks the blindside could work well. Or my favourite, the pop pass to the scrum half who runs through a hole created by those in the lineout in a preplanned move.

I actually believe that getting our lineout right and functioning well will serve us much better ultimately than pushing them around in the scrums.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 14 Jul 2011, 10:11 am

MMC wrote:
red_stag wrote:
- Force them into long drawn out mauls rather than quick rucks
We certainly have the personnel to do this if we choose Healy, Best, DOC, O'Connell and Wallace (one of his biggest strengths IMO). This would also help to negate Pocock's influence.

I agree also it gives them very, very slow ball and if we have 3 guys in that "maul", it leaves the rest of our players to set the defence and the Australian's love creating quick ball, so the defence is disorganised and that is when they are experts at finding gaps, mismatches the whole shbang. Even if we aren't going to win the ball of a maul, the longer it's up the harder it will be for them to attack. And yes, it negates Pocock here somewhat.

red_stag wrote:
- Target their 10-12 channel in a bid to lure in other defenders
If we plan to do this then we have to play Trimble and Bowe on the wings. Our centres aren't your typical crashball, strong running centres. Earls is more effective when given space too so having Trimble or Bowe creating a big gap with the likes of Earls joining the line late from fullback could work very well for us. I'd imagine the best way to bring about this scenario would be directly from the set piece (as you said in point 4).

The way I see this is Cooper needs to be isolated. So we need runners fixing the covering inside defence to allow us to attack Cooper, not Cooper and Elsom or Cooper and Pocock. Using a wrap here could be effective but off the 9. 9 to 10 with backrow looking to crash off him then back to 9 who feeds another player crashing on Cooper or Giteau.

red_stag wrote:
- Move the ball away from Pocock in attack
This one is probably the one that'll be the most difficult. Apart from limiting the amount of rucks due to an increased number of mauls, or a riskier offloading game I think we'll struggle here.

Can't see us doing this well. Our reaction will be important however, if we realise we have slow ball and decide to kick it away we will lose. We need to be patient and give it to our forwards and try and create momentum a-fresh.

red_stag wrote:
- Use our set pieces to launch first phase attacks
It has been pointed out before that Australia tend to be easier to expose from first phase ball and certainly this is something we should aim to do. But it's something that any team worth its salt will do in an effort to win a game. I don't see us getting much change from their lineout but I would like to see us try to vary it a bit more than we usually do. A short ball to the front and straight back to the hooker who then attacks the blindside could work well. Or my favourite, the pop pass to the scrum half who runs through a hole created by those in the lineout in a preplanned move.

I actually believe that getting our lineout right and functioning well will serve us much better ultimately than pushing them around in the scrums.

MMC- I love those lineout moves. Don't understand why they aren't used more to make the lineout less predictable. Getting clean ball off the top will be a priority though and understandably so we can unleash the likes of Trimble and Darcy at Giteau and Cooper.

by red_stag Thu 14 Jul 2011, 11:07 am

P.S. those scrum and lineout moves are where O'Leary shines. As is his physicality and defence. I'd start him for this fixture.

by MMC Thu 14 Jul 2011, 11:24 am

I'd be inclined to agree with you there Stag. I can't see Kidney starting O'Leary ahead of Reddan against Australia though. I think there are strong arguments for and against each player and everyone has their own views on it so I won't get into it now.

Are we going to get to choose the 2nd rows today pete? This one seems to be pretty unanimous.

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