Westwood's Putting

Is it as bad as I think, or is it just that he hits it close more often and so seems to miss more makeable putts?

No opinions? He's just 3 putted from just off the 9th, first putt some 20ft short and lucky not to roll back to his feet. If he could putt he'd be lethal.

I think he has a tendency to be a bit hot and cold with the putter. Let's hope this isn't a cold week!!

I think that his solid iron play does not complement his average putting but I don't think that he is that bad. The Open will probably be won by someone that is really good around the greens but the players will have to expect more 3 putts than normal just because they will end up with a lot of 50ft+ putts. Hopefully he'll be in the mix come Sunday and as it's the first day in tough conditions I'm sure that he will find some putting form over the four days. His chipping/pitching is that part that might really let him down though...

Maybe it's just me, but Westy looked a bit dejected at the post match interview with the Beeb. If he's out of sorts with the flat-stick that will put extreme pressure on his short game.

I've got to be honest , Westwood is pretty defensive and moody in all the post round interviews I've seen with him lately. Think he might be starting to have issues with the media.

I haven' seen him give a good interview for a while now. It used to be about having beers with Clarke but now it's just full of premier league footballer style cliches...

I like Westwood, and would love to see him win a major, but I've always thought his short game would prevent him from doing so. To be fair though, I also thought that about McIlroy and it didn't take him long to prove me wrong! I've never been convinced by Westwood's putting or chipping ... when it really matters under pressure. If you were looking for someone to hole a 10 footer with your life at stake, Westwood wouldn't be in my top 50 of current players.

Also agree with the interview comments. For a good while now he looks hacked off at every question and looking to get out of there as quickly as possible. Not sure why there's been a change, as I'm sure he seemed to be pretty affable before. Media relations is all part of the game. If these guys can spend so much of their valuable time tweeting inane drivel about having a coffee etc. etc., then you would have thought that it shouldn't be too much of a hardship to give interviews.

I heard a rumour that Westwood copped the hump with the media when they tried to make out there was a problem between him and Donald. Since then he has apparently decided just to give bog standard, inane "football style" answers. Can't say as I blame him myself.

I don't think he'll ever win a major

Hibbz wrote:I heard a rumour that Westwood copped the hump with the media when they tried to make out there was a problem between him and Donald. Since then he has apparently decided just to give bog standard, inane "football style" answers. Can't say as I blame him myself.

Hibbz - if that's true then it's very sad. Unfortunately I can quite believe it with the media these days.

If it IS true then I'm quite happy for him to keep giving the "game of two halves, Brian" type answers. Love him or hate him, the real golf fans will know he's not a dummy (regardless of whether you think he's worthy of world number 1 or 2).

Keep on taking the piss out of the media, Lee (if that's what it really is)

Davie wrote:

Hibbz wrote:I heard a rumour that Westwood copped the hump with the media when they tried to make out there was a problem between him and Donald. Since then he has apparently decided just to give bog standard, inane "football style" answers. Can't say as I blame him myself.

Hibbz - if that's true then it's very sad. Unfortunately I can quite believe it with the media these days.

If it IS true then I'm quite happy for him to keep giving the "game of two halves, Brian" type answers. Love him or hate him, the real golf fans will know he's not a dummy (regardless of whether you think he's worthy of world number 1 or 2).

Keep on taking the piss out of the media, Lee (if that's what it really is)

Could it also be he's fed up to the back teeth with all the questions surrounding "Should you be World #1 w/o a Major win?" etc etc. If Hibbz is right then it serves the media right that's he's clammed up.

Got it in one, NBS

Thought I'd bump this in light of Lee's current performance. I think the answer to my original question is clearly that it really is as bad as it seems, if not worse.

I think this is the one and only reason Westwood will never win a major as much as it's the only thing his career is missing and deserving off. Its not that he is even a streaky putter. He is plain and simple an average putter at best for the level he plays at.

He seems to spend an age over the ball before actually making the stroke. I think he could spend years working with stockton and not see an improvement. Shame because he has all the other attributes but just not on or around the greens. Much like Mahan and his chipping and putting if he could do that he'd be lethal to.

If only Luke donald could drive the ball like westwood pretty much be the complete golfer then

I agree Mav, his average putting sadly does not complement his excellent woods and irons. I do think that his chipping/pitching is still his biggest weakness because an average putter that hits most greens can get away with average putting but whenever he is around the greens he just seems like he's trying to just get it anywhere near the hole from positions that a lot of players would be looking to hole it from.

Something that I did notice yesterday and in his last few events is how comfortable McIlroy looks over the putter now whereas last year I thought that this would be his big stumbling block. I know that he has been working with Stockton so maybe there is some hope for Westwood.

I also found it interesting that Westwood has now decided to see Bob Rotella after all these years without a "head coach." I remember Faldo saying in the mid '90's that the three fundamental people for a tour pro is a swing coach, head coach and nutritionist which at the time was some very revolutionary thinking. Am surprised it has taken Westwood so long given that his biggest problems are on and around the greens where a strong mental game is a prerequisite to success.

If Westwood wants to take a while settling over his putts then I dont know why he doesnt do it whilst looking at the hole. Head down watching the ball wont do you any good because your mind loses where the hole is in space. He spends a good few seconds over the ball before he putts so why not spend those few seconds looking at the hole then trace the line back and go.

Also, with the way he reacts to missed putts, turning to caddie, checking the line again etc. he'll never think he's a good putter. Spending all that time dramatising over what's already happened lingers in the mind and distracts from the next putt or task. IMO he's got to get less technical and realise there are many different ways to get the ball in the hole. It will free his mind.

I'm a great fan of Westy and it's sad to see this part of his game holding him back. I know I must be sounding like a needle stuck on a record but he has a mechanical (if that's not too much of a contradiction in terms) problem with his putting stroke not a mental one. He's a bold putter which is good in one sense but not so good in another in that it's having a detrimental effect on his stroke rhythm. Until he addresses this, I really don't see how a "head coach" can help him.

I'm not so sure that he's a bold putter because his mental game is strong though but rather he knows that it is less demoralising to just give it a go rather than dolly everything up to the hole. The fact that he stands over his putts a little long would also suggest that his head might need tweaking and his post round attitude over the past year or so also suggests that his average putting is getting to him. The fact that he is now working with Stockton and Rotella would suggest that he is on the right track but I am still surprised that it has taken this long to address the few flaws in an otherwise fantastic game.

I kind of agree with your gael. I dont really buy its a technical fault or a head problem, its something in between and that something is feel. Feel comes from a consistent and a nice flowing tempo. If you get the right tempo it can make up for some technical faults that everyone has from time to time. He certainly has a punchy stroke, which I would work to make more smoother.

Looking at the ball for too long whilst over the putt and his attitude to missed putts dont help.

He has the look of a man who can't really be bothered if you ask me, and as for his putting, I have always said it will stop him winning a big one, and it looks as though i may be right.

How is it every put misses on the left?

There is another possibility. Some players just don't read putts as well as others. By way of an extreme example, an american pro from a very long time ago fully depended upon his caddie to read his putts for him. On one occasion his caddie (attending the pin) called back ... "2 inches". He frustratedly responded ... "Yes, yes but which side?"

Not sure on that I think his stroke looks cack, but he does tend to have a bemused look on his face when he misses, almost like he mis-read it, so maybe you are right.

gaelgowfer wrote:There is another possibility. Some players just don't read putts as well as others. By way of an extreme example, an american pro from a very long time ago fully depended upon his caddie to read his putts for him. On one occasion his caddie (attending the pin) called back ... "2 inches". He frustratedly responded ... "Yes, yes but which side?"

Really good point Gael - not sure how he can address this though. Maybe he can add a "line reader" to his team of helpers.

Not sure how much he's still working with these people but we'd have Cowen for his swing, Roe for his chipping, Stockton for his putting, Rotella for his "head," Chandler for his management and then a "line reader." Throw in a couple of bodyguards and some groupies and that's quite an entourage!

I'm not sure the fact that he stands over the putts for a long time is indicative of a mental block, as he does that with his irons and tee shots as well.

I used to think Karlsson was bad but i've never seen someone stand over the ball for as long as Westwood does. How he manages to ever convince himself to start his swing i've no idea!

I do agree that standing over putts for that long doesn't help though.
Aaron Baddeley - look at the hole, look at the ball, hit.........

I'd love to see Westwood win a Major (as I'd posted earlier above), but I had to chuckle just a little yesterday. I'm reading Rotella's putting book at the moment (which is excellent BTW), and much had been made of Westwood's decison to start working with him ... with quotes from Lee about trying to play as if he didn't care. Fast forward to the later stages of round 1, and after his umpteenth awful 10-15 footer not even coming close, he almost had a meltdown with a "tearing his hair out" gesture with both hands. As has been posted above, Rotella is ALL about positive thinking, not dwelling on negatives/misses etc. Lee clearly still needs a lot of work on that bit!

PS ... What WAS Rory thinking about with that shot at the third?!!! He said in the post-round conference the root was about a FOOT in front of the ball, and he hadn't let go of the club soon enough. Now to me, the tree root looked about a MILLIMETRE in front of the ball. Bizarre shot selection, to say the least. I did admire his courage battling on though, after his moment of utter stupidity. What was it that commentator said about his course management again?

sharrison ... the thing is, is such an entourage sustainable longterm? Comparatively speaking, it no longer seems to be working for Harrington. I still think it's possible for him to find the answer within himself. However, if it is a reading thing then perhaps he needs to engage a caddie who can help him. At the of the day, the caddie is the only person who can advise him on the course.

Apologies for calling into question your uni credentials btw.

Also agree on some of the comments about mis-reading his putts. He's regularly missing 10-15 footers by more than the width of another hole! That's ridiculous at the level these guys are playing at. Good putters don't hole everything, but they at least look like holing everything. If Lee holes one from that range then it's a major surprise to everybody. Must be soul destroying for the guy.

gaelgowfer wrote:sharrison ... the thing is, is such an entourage sustainable longterm? Comparatively speaking, it no longer seems to be working for Harrington. I still think it's possible for him to find the answer within himself. However, if it is a reading thing then perhaps he needs to engage a caddie who can help him. At the of the day, the caddie is the only person who can advise him on the course.

Apologies for calling into question your uni credentials btw.

De nada Gael. No harm done...

Seems to be a lot of people there to tell him what he should or shouldn't be doing! I got the impression that his caddy is very well respected but maybe Lee should give him more of a say in reading putts. Harrington seems to have realised that he needs to keep it a bit more simple and hopefully that will see a change in his fortunes. I thought that his big problem was getting a bit ahead of himself because after he won his 1st Open I thought that his comments about being a journey man pro would have fulfilled his dreams to put into context how it felt to win a major showed what a great bloke and deserved winner he was. Fast forward a year and two more majors and the media created the next "Tiger" out of him which turned his head to trying all manner of things to get better when quite simply his game was already good enough for multiple majors.

I hope that Lee can get there as a major would be a deserving award for his fantastic career but it sadly seems that with each major he is getting further away. "A camel is a horse that was designed by a committee" - lets hope that Lee's "committee" doesn't add truth to this...

sharrison ... just googled their respective ages with Westy being 38 and Darren Clarke 42 so there's still no physical reason why he can't yet bag one for himself.

I wouldnt say the problem was his age, just that most players outside of the greats dont hang around contending in majors for that long. Westwood had a great few years and never managed to close the deal, will he get as many chances in the future ? Maybe, personally I dont think so.
Also last year we were talking about his chipping being poor, now its his putting. Those are two pretty big parts oft he game to have major problems with.

gaelgowfer wrote:sharrison ... just googled their respective ages with Westy being 38 and Darren Clarke 42 so there's still no physical reason why he can't yet bag one for himself.

I'm hoping that you're right - Jack won his last at 46 so there should be plenty of time!

I just thought that in 09/10 Westwood deserved to win at least one major with the way that he was playing and his attitude suggested that he felt like he was going to win one - not 100% sure but I would have thought that his placings in those majors also made him the "best player not to win one" with his performances. Just feels now that the fire is not burning so brightly in his belly and he has gone from expecting to win one to hoping to win one. He's still at the top of the game and has overcome far bigger career hurdles than this so I'm sure that he'll find a way forward, whether that be psychologists, swing coaches etc - whatever the method he'll get there.

He is lacking in confidence on the greens at the moment.He'll get in back sooner rather than later.

If he is working with Dave Stockton then this should be noticeable quite quickly. I read an article in a mag about 6 months ago where 3 top putting coaches, DS, Pelz and can't remember the other 1, discussed their different views, likes & dislikes.
DS believes that you shouldn't linger over putts, much more Baddeley-like. I also think that he prefers dead-weight putting rather than 2-3ft past the hole.

Eyetoldyouso wrote:If he is working with Dave Stockton then this should be noticeable quite quickly. I read an article in a mag about 6 months ago where 3 top putting coaches, DS, Pelz and can't remember the other 1, discussed their different views, likes & dislikes.
DS believes that you shouldn't linger over putts, much more Baddeley-like. I also think that he prefers dead-weight putting rather than 2-3ft past the hole.

DS gave a brief tips moment on inside Euro Tour Weekly show on Sky. He mentioned then that dead weight was and always will be the method he used and teaches as it leaves less chance of messing with the mind after running one 6feet by. He also gave great insight into how to read putts is more important than the technique used to excute them, his final pointer was to say, address the ball, glimpse at the hole, look down pull the trigger. I think great good to look at as an example of that would be Jason Day, as soon as his eyes return to the ball at address he makes his stroke, no tension build up or last minute thoughts creep in as there's not time.

Maybe there is a trend with younger players to be more decisive over putts? I've heard Baddley and Day mentioned and I also think that Rory and most notably Fowler seem to just see it and hit it. Fowler amazes me the way he is so comfortable knocking a mid range putt 6ft past and then just stepping up and ramming it in the middle, sometimes without even marking his ball and lining it up. I suppose that at that age they will probably assume that trophies will just come to them and their bank balances hardly warrant worrying about a missed putt!?!

There's clearly a lot of bilge re. how bad LW is with his short game. Some current ET stats:

Putts per GIR - 65th (of 211) @ 1.779
Scrambles - 19th (of 211) @ 60.7%
One putts - 22nd (of 211) @ 6.19

Not the best, but clearly not as bad as people make out.

navyblueshorts wrote:There's clearly a lot of bilge re. how bad LW is with his short game. Some current ET stats:

Putts per GIR - 65th (of 211) @ 1.779
Scrambles - 19th (of 211) @ 60.7%
One putts - 22nd (of 211) @ 6.19

Not the best, but clearly not as bad as people make out.

Interesting. Is that this season or a longer running thing?

The stats aren't that bad, but I guess might seem to suffer in comparison to his OWGR, when in fact all they suggest is that there are lots of ways to get it done.

navyblueshorts wrote:There's clearly a lot of bilge re. how bad LW is with his short game. Some current ET stats:

Putts per GIR - 65th (of 211) @ 1.779
Scrambles - 19th (of 211) @ 60.7%
One putts - 22nd (of 211) @ 6.19

Not the best, but clearly not as bad as people make out.

Ah but is there a stat for clutch putts?

Bob

This season's as far as I know.

Gael

Not that I could find.

Flip Westwood's putting!

37 points today with another 39 putts for yours truly today (5 x three putts).

When are you going to start a thread about my putting?

The thing is, that Westy is always around the top in the majors. Only a few lucky breaks and he'll win a major.

So Lee's achilles heel lets him down again.

Some stats from the Masters

Mickleson 107 putts
Garcia 114 putts
Lee 128 putts

Shocking for some one who's tee to green play over the 4 days was the best in the field.

I read somewhere may have been on the bbc website that he is ditching his putting coach.

I'm no expert but imo his problems are not with his physical action of the stroke but in his inability to read them properly and commit 100% to his line and trust it. How often we see him stand there and bemoan the line or how long he hesitates beofre making the stroke.

westys putting is only ok. However like most players of a certain level they can be streaky. Westys main problem is his short game. Check out 2 of his chips on the 13th at the masters and one on the 15. all 3 were gifts from the golfing gods(the approach shots could have ended in the water) however he took a combined 10 shots to get ddown from those positions. The major winners ride there luck, westy didnt take those chances.

I am not saying westy was lucky at all, every golfer gets luck in every tourny, however he played the best out of anyone in that field and didnt make the best of chances.

"So Lee's achilles heel lets him down again.

Some stats from the Masters

Mickleson 107 putts
Garcia 114 putts
Lee 128 putts

Shocking for some one who's tee to green play over the 4 days was the best in the field."

that comment isnt completly fair- you have to understand if you lead gir then you arent gonna have the best putting stats. its just a given. lee hit 58 greens and pmick hit 45. However it still wasnt good enough. But then Pmicks wasnt good enough to win either..

Lees putting does need work, but he hits a hell of a lot of greens so comparing it against someone who misses a lot of greens like Mickelson and has a lot of single putts because they are getting up and down a lot or who are putting from just off the green is very misleading, better to compare putts per gir and distance of single putts holed.

I average less than 29 putts a round, it doesn't mean I'm a great putter, it means I get up and down a lot. Clearly I need to work on hitting more greens, whereupon I'd be less concerned about the number of putts I have because i'll have more birdie opportunities rather than single putts for easy par saves.
Comparing Westwood and Mickelson is like comparing apples amd oranges. Didn't Lee finish ahead of Mickelson anyway? Fewer putts didn't really help Mickelson.

the new pga stat for puts gained/lost on the field is the most telling one i think. anyone have these numbers available?
cant seem to find them on pgatour.com

I don't think it takes stats - just watching him often shows Westwood sinking fewer of those vital momentum givers/retainers putts than the other top players seem to.

But if you want stats, then here are two telling ones from the PGA site for Westwood (in my opinion):

Ball Striking - Rank 1st
Total Putting - Rank 83rd

http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/

westy is top of gir's
138th in putts gained/lost

donald is number one of that stat.

telling stuff, however i dont think it is as good as total putting due to the fact that many of the top putters are low on the gir and viceversa!

westy is 83rd on total putting that however donald is top again- which does surprise me a little bit in fairness..

He just doesnt look at the hole long enough when over the ball for me. I watched him during the masters and once he's finished his practice strokes and slooowly moves in to the ball he has one quick peek at the hole then goes. I wanna grab him and say stop taking for ever to get over the putt then only look at the hole for a micro second before pulling the trigger!! Think about it, his brain and therefore body has no clue where the hole is in relation to his new postion over the ball.... Most other players either look more than once or has one long look.