It would appear...

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...looking at the Open top 10 the Americans travel better than the English, even when the English dont have to travel. Considering the talent we supposedly have its nothing less than a shocking display really, only Dyson and Rock remotely respectable and they arent exactly the big names.
Fair play to the Yanks, 12 of the top 17 places playing a courrse that has played like a links course, maybe they will get a bit less stick on here for a little while.

I think that you may have misunderstood my point on attitudes. I am at no point questioning the players' attitudes that have missed the cut. I am questioning how the attitude of criticising a golfer that is having a really great week rather than applauding his merits is the sort of attitude that is of no use for up and coming players. You have stated that you do not think that hype is good for young players but I think that hype for American players is better than leaving European players alone.

And his entire life amounts to a grand 22 year total with a career that is barely in it's infancy. To question him at all at this age and stage in his career is far worse for him than hyping him up and telling him that he'll be the best in the world. The Americans get this, which is part of the reason that they produce winners in sport rather than just people that played well and gave it 100%/

Diggers wrote:If Fowler wins tomorrow...and Id be happy if he did ... he'll have done it playing some great golf in tough conditions, his score today was superb. So we will know he is a good player who will have fulfilled some of the potential some see in him.

He's clearly a good player, I wouldn't slate him as much as S_R has, he's put in some good performances in the states. But he's not the finished article yet, his 4th round record shows that. If he wins tomorrow, he's in the big time, you don't get many 22-year-old major winners who don't stick around at the top of the game. But I'd be surprised he he finishes top-5.

And even if he does win, and prove he has the mindset to match his ability, I still won't be able to stand him.

sharrison01 wrote:I think that you may have misunderstood my point on attitudes. I am at no point questioning the players' attitudes that have missed the cut. I am questioning how the attitude of criticising a golfer that is having a really great week rather than applauding his merits is the sort of attitude that is of no use for up and coming players. You have stated that you do not think that hype is good for young players but I think that hype for American players is better than leaving European players alone.

And his entire life amounts to a grand 22 year total with a career that is barely in it's infancy. To question him at all at this age and stage in his career is far worse for him than hyping him up and telling him that he'll be the best in the world. The Americans get this, which is part of the reason that they produce winners in sport rather than just people that played well and gave it 100%/

I don't think anyone is questioning his performance this week, and apart from possibly S_R, no one is questioning his talent either. What annoys people is that he's talked about in the same bracket as Major winners like McIlroy and Schwartzel, and above guys like Oosthuizen and Manassero who have far better CVs. He's a talented young golfer, but he's not the most exciting player in the world, or the best prospect, or whatever.

The Americans produce winners because they have a population that makes it statistically likely, a culture that encourages playing sports, and an economy that lets talented kids have intensive practice. It's not an attitude thing, they produce their share of losers too.

Harrison, this is a forum, not a motivational platform for the benefit of Rickie Fowler, i'm perfectly at liberty to make any comments I like about him, it has no bearing on the development of European golf, nor is my attitude sypmtomatic of the British attitude to up and coming players. If any players were to be influence by such a forum well then they are already too weak willed to succeed.

However, I've seen first hand what hamming a guy up as the next big thing as does to a player at local, regional and national level and they virtually always dismally fail.

Hyping up American players is clearly not particularly helpful, given that none of the new brigade are pulling up any trees on a regular basis, perhaps the gentle (pre McIlroy) attitude the general public have is better at producing more rounded players.
I'd rather have a Kaymer or a Mannasero who know how to win, than a hyped up Fowler who has never won ANY pro tournaments.

Fowler is doing well for a 22 year old, but no better than thousands of overhyped youngsters who have gone before him, and how many of them have reached the heights to which they were projected?
A sense of perspective would be useful.

And Donald, Kaymer and McDowell (may as well sling Westwood in there) only dream of the careers of hyped up players like Tiger and Phil.

I just don't understand where there is a problem in hyping up a young player? The player loves it because he gets sponsors falling over him. The tour and TV companies love it because everyone wants to see him play so viewing is up. The newspapers love it because it fills their pages. The manufacturers love it because he sell their gear. If he makes it then everyone jumps on the bandwagon following him, even the cynics, and if he doesn't make it then by the time the average golf fan realises that he isn't as good as they thought he was then they will be following the next hyped up player anyway. Down side of hype is Michelle Wie that can retire by the time she is 21 - Upside is Tiger Woods that makes $1b within 15 years.

It's funny with the clothing thing though. I've seen Clarke, a middle aged fat man, look like a complete prat on the course in garish , checked rubbish. In his 30's he was all gold bracelets and streaked hair and permatan.....in other words dressed with no class at all and didn't have the excuse of being a kid.
I'm sure nobody on here will mind that if he wins tomorrow though.

Harrison, all we are saying is that the hype needs to be left until Fowler actually wins something. Hitherto he's only been close once or twice. Hardly the type of results we expect to see from someone who is regarded as such a prodigy, and especially not when there are already players on tour of a similar age who have achieved far far more.

Diggers, I have to agree, there's a sizeable proportion of golfers who look horrendous on the course.
Golf is not a "cool" sport and old geezers like Clarke and Daly wearing such gear only makes it look even sillier and gives people ammunition to ridicule the game, and then someone like Fowler comes along and takes it to new shiversome depths.

NedB-H wrote:

sharrison01 wrote:I think that you may have misunderstood my point on attitudes. I am at no point questioning the players' attitudes that have missed the cut. I am questioning how the attitude of criticising a golfer that is having a really great week rather than applauding his merits is the sort of attitude that is of no use for up and coming players. You have stated that you do not think that hype is good for young players but I think that hype for American players is better than leaving European players alone.

And his entire life amounts to a grand 22 year total with a career that is barely in it's infancy. To question him at all at this age and stage in his career is far worse for him than hyping him up and telling him that he'll be the best in the world. The Americans get this, which is part of the reason that they produce winners in sport rather than just people that played well and gave it 100%/

I don't think anyone is questioning his performance this week, and apart from possibly S_R, no one is questioning his talent either. What annoys people is that he's talked about in the same bracket as Major winners like McIlroy and Schwartzel, and above guys like Oosthuizen and Manassero who have far better CVs. He's a talented young golfer, but he's not the most exciting player in the world, or the best prospect, or whatever.

The Americans produce winners because they have a population that makes it statistically likely, a culture that encourages playing sports, and an economy that lets talented kids have intensive practice. It's not an attitude thing, they produce their share of losers too.

But then how do you not all understand that it is because he is American in a golf industry where there are very few Americans that are marketable? No one in South Africa has any interest in golf or money so why on earth would you hype up Oosterhuizen or Schwartzel. Italy is essentially the golfing equivalent to Serbia in tennis - how they have produced three top players in the past few years is beyond me with their lack of interest in the game - again, not marketable. Rory is marginally different to Fowler but was also being hyped up before he had the cv he has now - how else do you explain his wealth far exceeding players with better cv's?

Yet fowler is a kid and dresses as many kids do, so kids will start to think of it as a cool sport and want to play.

Harrison, that's all very well, but America have players of far greater substance and ability than Fowler, someone like Dustin Johnson and even the horrendous mulleted and absurdly named Bubba Watson, who have actually won and look like decent players would surely be a better vehicle for such hype, or are marketing bods just happy to have the equvalent of a face who can't sing, rather than the fat munter with a great voice.

I can't see Fowler appealling to anyone other than people who watch drivel like High School Musical, hardly a demographic that have money to spend on golf equipment and so all the hype no doubt generated for anticipated financial gain is in reality wasted.

Nay Bother wrote:Yet fowler is a kid and dresses as many kids do, so kids will start to think of it as a cool sport and want to play.

Where on earth have you seen kids dressed like that?

super_realist wrote:Harrison, all we are saying is that the hype needs to be left until Fowler actually wins something. Hitherto he's only been close once or twice. Hardly the type of results we expect to see from someone who is regarded as such a prodigy, and especially not when there are already players on tour of a similar age who have achieved far far more.

But I don't understand who loses out if the hype waits until he starts winning? I have already outlined where everybody gains in hyping him up and surely you can see how fans and money being attracted to golf is good for everyone.

Again, he is 22. Rory aside, there are not already players on tour that have achieved a lot more.

Eh, Mannaserro and Jason Day for starters.

Plus all the hype didn't do much use for Wie, Freddy Adu or Kournikova did it, all of whom have achieved almost zero.
I believe in meritocracy, I'd hate to be rewarded for something I hadn't done yet.

super_realist wrote:

Nay Bother wrote:Yet fowler is a kid and dresses as many kids do, so kids will start to think of it as a cool sport and want to play.

Where on earth have you seen kids dressed like that?

His white shell-suit today reminded me of my last visit to Glasgow.

ryan86 wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Nay Bother wrote:Yet fowler is a kid and dresses as many kids do, so kids will start to think of it as a cool sport and want to play.

Where on earth have you seen kids dressed like that?

His white shell-suit today reminded me of my last visit to Glasgow.

And do we really want shell suited soap dodging buckfast swigging pikeys on the course?

sharrison01 wrote:But then how do you not all understand that it is because he is American in a golf industry where there are very few Americans that are marketable? No one in South Africa has any interest in golf or money so why on earth would you hype up Oosterhuizen or Schwartzel. Italy is essentially the golfing equivalent to Serbia in tennis - how they have produced three top players in the past few years is beyond me with their lack of interest in the game - again, not marketable. Rory is marginally different to Fowler but was also being hyped up before he had the cv he has now - how else do you explain his wealth far exceeding players with better cv's?

We understand it, we just don't like it! We're golf fans, we want to see the credit go to the players it deserves to, rather than the players they can flog things with. Tennis is much better for it, possibly cos it's a global tour rather than a US based tour... but Djokovic has always got exactly the credit he reserves, not more or less. And the young players they're building up at the moment are from Latvia, and Bulgaria, and Australia, so it's not just based on nationality clearly.

I agree Rory was a bit overhyped too, and that annoyed me, but not as much as Fowler's because Rory doesn't grate as much with me. But at least there were no direct comparisons when Rory was still looking for a first pro win. Now we get Fowler vs Rory all the time - if that is the competition, Rory's winning about 20-0.

super_realist wrote:Harrison, that's all very well, but America have players of far greater substance and ability than Fowler, someone like Dustin Johnson and even the horrendous mulleted and absurdly named Bubba Watson, who have actually won and look like decent players would surely be a better vehicle for such hype, or are marketing bods just happy to have the equvalent of a face who can't sing, rather than the fat munter with a great voice.

I can't see Fowler appealling to anyone other than people who watch drivel like High School Musical, hardly a demographic that have money to spend on golf equipment and so all the hype no doubt generated for anticipated financial gain is in reality wasted.

Johnson and Watson are hardly a marketers dream?!? Unfortunately, faces that can't sing attract the finances to support the fat munter with the great voice (and big lunch bill). And the High School Musical kids are exactly the type of people that they want to attract - they buy anything their idol endorses and have parents that feel like failures if they don't provide this. Whether you agree or not, it is the way...

And do you really think that they are targeting old cynics like the 606v2 crowd that would probably not stump up for an unlosable golf ball if it existed? Please, I might change a club once every two years - as a junior I barely went 3 months without wanting something new.

NedB-H wrote:

sharrison01 wrote:But then how do you not all understand that it is because he is American in a golf industry where there are very few Americans that are marketable? No one in South Africa has any interest in golf or money so why on earth would you hype up Oosterhuizen or Schwartzel. Italy is essentially the golfing equivalent to Serbia in tennis - how they have produced three top players in the past few years is beyond me with their lack of interest in the game - again, not marketable. Rory is marginally different to Fowler but was also being hyped up before he had the cv he has now - how else do you explain his wealth far exceeding players with better cv's?

We understand it, we just don't like it! We're golf fans, we want to see the credit go to the players it deserves to, rather than the players they can flog things with. Tennis is much better for it, possibly cos it's a global tour rather than a US based tour... but Djokovic has always got exactly the credit he reserves, not more or less. And the young players they're building up at the moment are from Latvia, and Bulgaria, and Australia, so it's not just based on nationality clearly.

I agree Rory was a bit overhyped too, and that annoyed me, but not as much as Fowler's because Rory doesn't grate as much with me. But at least there were no direct comparisons when Rory was still looking for a first pro win. Now we get Fowler vs Rory all the time - if that is the competition, Rory's winning about 20-0.

But then if you see through it but accept that it is a necessary evil then even as a golf fan you must like it? In doing this, you get to ignore the media and make your own mind up on who you want to follow but then benefit from what the media can help bring into the sport, which is a hell of a lot for golfers! Golf being a financial powerhouse means lots of competition within the industry, improved tournaments, better facilities for youngsters to improve our viewing etc etc. All good for the golf fan in the end...

super_realist wrote:Eh, Mannaserro and Jason Day for starters.

Plus all the hype didn't do much use for Wie, Freddy Adu or Kournikova did it, all of whom have achieved almost zero.
I believe in meritocracy, I'd hate to be rewarded for something I hadn't done yet.

Jason Day is a year older and hardly has a bulging CV with one win. Mannasserro I agree with but then he is still just a prodigy and if he was from a country that played golf the hype would be Fowler on acid.

Wie and Kournikova could have been Woods and Sharapova - the hype was no different. And they would also be happy to pay for a team of staff to listen to your beliefs in meritocracy. Again, they haven't really lost too much.

Goodness
Some of you 'girlies' should re-read your stuff.

Do you not realise that this is golf, not a fashion show or manicure parade.
It is about how you play the game, not what you look like.
Golf has always had it's dandies from Hagen, Faulkner, Saunders and Daly. All of them great golfers.

Fowler certainly won me over yesterday with one of the greatest gutsy and skillful rounds played in an Open.
He played with spirit, you could see he loved the challenge.

I quite liked Ricky "tango man" Fowler's outfit yesterday. Personally wouldn't be seen dead in that outfit, but he's only 22 years old and I thought he got away with it. Good to see a fresh look in the professional ranks, if it attracts kids to golf all the best to him.

Doon the Water wrote:Goodness
Some of you 'girlies' should re-read your stuff.

Do you not realise that this is golf, not a fashion show or manicure parade.
It is about how you play the game, not what you look like.
Golf has always had it's dandies from Hagen, Faulkner, Saunders and Daly. All of them great golfers.

Fowler certainly won me over yesterday with one of the greatest gutsy and skillful rounds played in an Open.
He played with spirit, you could see he loved the challenge.

Yes Doon and don't forget Tommy 'Thunder' Bolt and Tom Weiskopf too