Froch of 2011 v Calzaghe of 2005

First topic message reminder :

Calzaghe wins it, little doubt for me.

coxy0001 wrote:Anyone know why he's called the Prince of Wales when he's English?

English? His mother is German and his father is a Greek.

Super D Boon wrote:As of yet Froch's "best" wins have not come against a SMW champion. Abraham, Pascal, Dirrell, Johnson and Taylor never won a SMW title between them.

That was part of the reason why I've argued that Froch doesn't eclipse Calzaghe if he beats Ward and wins the Super Six. If he beats Ward, avenges the Kessler defeat and also takes care of Buté, then he's in for consideration. If he adds a 175 lb title, he has the edge.

d260005p wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

d260005p wrote:

alma wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Calzaghe wins it, little doubt for me.

Scott, if Froch beats Ward, do his achievements outrank Calzaghe's? Have they already in fact?

Errr i doubt that given that Calzaghe defended his titles over 10 years which is a record. Plus he was undefeated and unified the division with Kessler who was in his prime, a fighter who Froch lost against. For all of Frochs war horse fighting style, he is no where near Calzaghe, but if he unifies against Ward then goes and beats Bute, defends it for a few years, then he may be in the same class, for sure.

Given that most of Calzaghe's defences were against bums it's neither here or there that he made so many of them. I'd pick Calzaghe to win, probably points, but as far as legacies go Froch has more good names in his last five wins than Calzaghe had in his last twenty. I'd be rooting for the Brit, but my money would be on the Italian import.

He fought who was put in front of him to be honest. And he fought a peak Kessler who Froch lost to. Not to mention beating Hopkins who in turn is now a LHW champ after pounding Pascal. So his record isnt really that padded. I agree that Froch has beat some quality opposition however Calzaghe beats Froch via UD. Both good fighters and its good to see Froch getting some recognition finally.

You've mentioned two fighters out of the 46 he fought. Throw in Lacy and a past his peak Eubank and there really isn't anything else of real quality on his record. His world title reign is padded. Very talented fighter, just a pity he waited until the end of his career to face a higher calibre of opposition.

88Chris05 wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:As of yet Froch's "best" wins have not come against a SMW champion. Abraham, Pascal, Dirrell, Johnson and Taylor never won a SMW title between them.

That was part of the reason why I've argued that Froch doesn't eclipse Calzaghe if he beats Ward and wins the Super Six. If he beats Ward, avenges the Kessler defeat and also takes care of Buté, then he's in for consideration. If he adds a 175 lb title, he has the edge.

You don't want much...

Anyway im off to play golf now so il conceed. Froch is a true English hero whos record is much better than Calzaghes. Froch would of smashed Joe who is Italian anyway. England is so much better than Wales even though the population is roughly only 47 million times bigger. Welsh is a rubbish language anyone who was educated in it is a clumsy fool bla bla bla bla

Enjoy your witty xenophobic internet chat

As Joe the ducker would say "Ciao"

Anyone know why he's called the Prince of Wales when he's English? Be like calling Prince Harry "Prince of Mexico" or something silly
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No good on dates but 'back in the day' the king of wales was named 'king of britain'. When Ed the 1st got in power for the english & kicked welsh behind he said we're avin that title for us now & used it for a title for the heir to our thrown. Though i realise this is very vague it's the best i can do?!

Calzaghe to win SD.

coxy0001 wrote:I give it 10 minutes before Windy has the red pen out and is poking people up the arris with it.

Ha !

Fifteen and counting, coxy. I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I were to do it here and now, wouldn't I ? Steffan knows I was joking, though.

I hope.

Steffan wrote:Anyway im off to play golf now so il conceed. Froch is a true English hero whos record is much better than Calzaghes. Froch would of smashed Joe who is Italian anyway. England is so much better than Wales even though the population is roughly only 47 million times bigger. Welsh is a rubbish language anyone who was educated in it is a clumsy fool bla bla bla bla

Enjoy your witty xenophobic internet chat

As Joe the ducker would say "Ciao"

You can have this one on me, Steffan, since it was a bit of good natured banter on both sides. Back to our agreement tomorrow, mind.

Enjoy your golf, mate.

Scottrf wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:As of yet Froch's "best" wins have not come against a SMW champion. Abraham, Pascal, Dirrell, Johnson and Taylor never won a SMW title between them.

That was part of the reason why I've argued that Froch doesn't eclipse Calzaghe if he beats Ward and wins the Super Six. If he beats Ward, avenges the Kessler defeat and also takes care of Buté, then he's in for consideration. If he adds a 175 lb title, he has the edge.

You don't want much...

Well, I just don't see Froch's career as being superior to Calzaghe's if he beats Ward, though I seem to be in the minority. It may have taken a while, but the fact of the matter is that Calzaghe totally cleaned out the 168 lb division, which Froch hasn't done. Really don't see any case for Froch being ranked higher as long as the Kessler defeat remains unavenged. We can talk all we like about how he's beaten the 'better' Pascal, but given that Pascal has been outclassed by a Calzaghe victim, it gets put in to perspective a little.

It seems as if a few have short memories. Calzaghe's achievements are much, much more noteworthy than some seem to think.

I...didn't mean to prod Steffan into any kind of ticking-off. All in good humour, and what have you.

I agree with 88Chris05. Froch could potentially outstrip Calzaghe but I think its always going to be close for several reasons.

First is that I think its reasonably clear Calzaghe was a better fighter overall, even if his overall record gets outstripped by Froch.

Second is that Calzaghes wins over Hopkins and Kessler are more significant than any of Frochs. Hopkins is an all time great, one of which which Froch has yet to beat and Kessler beat Froch who is arguably their only common top level opponent.

Third, and again largely in agreement with 88Chris05 here, I think the Super Six has glamourised the division to an extent but if we look past it the likes of Arthur Abraham, Glen Johnson and potentially Andre Dirrell are not actually as big wins as I think they are made out relative to many of Calzaghes.

Fourthly, and this is nitpicking but I do it only because Calzaghe suffers from the same thing, if we look at benchmark performances then there is also more question marks over Froch. He struggled with Dirrell heavily in a fight that could have gone either way, he was barely a minute away from defeat to Taylor who blew it and he lost a hard fought match with Kessler who Calzaghe clearly beat. Calzaghe has his own ghosts, especially Robin Reid, but with Froch its not that much of a stretch to say he could have had 3 defeats already to his Super Middleweight rivals - the margins are that fine.

The fight with Ward is going to be majorly significant for Froch. Win it and he has strong argument to match Calzaghe, lose it and he arguably has lost to the two best fighters he faced and probably couldnt even lay claim to have been the second best Super Middleweight of his era. I think moving to 175 and wining a title is entirely dependant on who he beats. Somebody like Cleverly would be largely irrelevant legacy wise an certainly not in the same league as the Hopkins Calzaghe beat.

I think a fight between the two would be a wide victory for Calzaghe whos combiantion of speed and workrate would be too much for Froch.m I see it being 117-111 sort of fight although competitve all the way through, Calzaghe just takes most of the rounds. Potentially one of those fights that looks more lopsided on the cards than it was in reality, but Froch has a habit of taking his foot off the pedal now and then and not working enough that would be fatal against someone of Calzaghes style and output.

to be fair to them both i had froch beating kessler, but calzaghes win over bhop is a great win, that just gets better the more bhop proves he can keep fighting on.

did anyone see bernard trying to coax joe into a rematch at the khan fight?

eddyfightfan wrote:to be fair to them both i had froch beating kessler, but calzaghes win over bhop is a great win, that just gets better the more bhop proves he can keep fighting on.

did anyone see bernard trying to coax joe into a rematch at the khan fight?

Never seen that mate. Did he actually do it? Would love a rematch even though the first was poor

It would be a great fight to bet on. Calzaghe points, you would probably get slightly better than evens for what seems quite an obvious outcome.
Calzaghes' quicker hands and angles would pull off a one sided points win for me.

I really like Froch, but Kessler beat him fair and square for me.

I think Calzaghe would win as he's the better boxer but I've got huge respect for the approach that Froch has taken with his career.

Froch isn't worried about losses on his record, he looks like he's trying to get to a place where he can say at the end of his career 'I've no unanswered questions, I stood toe to toe with the best of my generation and know in myself where I rank'.

I think it's a crying shame that Calzaghe didn't have this attitude towards his career as I truely believe he would have beaten most if not all of the guys he's accused of ducking, perhaps with the exception of a prime RJJ.

In summary, Calzaghe's the better boxer, Froch's fights are more entertaining, Froch will have the better cv come retirement. Both will be British boxing all time greats.

The Polish lad has fought a great run of opponents, but Calzaghe wins by comfortable UD all day.

I'm so confident of a calzaghe victory I would actually bet on the fight.

Have to remember that a lot of the people predicting a Calzaghe win are the same people who said Kessler would win the Super Six.


What's perhaps necessary to throw into the argument is the feeling some fans had that Carl may have had a mental edge on Joe, and what I'd like to ask is would this have any bearing on any potential matchup between the pair, would it have any effect on Joe's performance, causing him to underperform, or is this perceived mental edge merely a figment of the imagination of those fans?

I think Calzaghe would have a tear up similar to the Kessler fight for the first 4 rounds before outboxing Froch to a decision.
Carl's good but he's not great

BoxingFan88 wrote:I'm so confident of a calzaghe victory I would actually bet on the fight.

The odds you would have got would have been so bad that you would end up paying the bookie anyway! I think Carl Froch is great and would prefer to watch him than Calslappy any day, but unfortunately, Joe is the more talented fighter. Carl is the more ambitious one.

alma wrote:

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:Have to remember that a lot of the people predicting a Calzaghe win are the same people who said Kessler would win the Super Six.

How do you know?

For the record I thought Abraham would win it

Well pardon me, perhaps we should call you Boxtradamus.




Only kidding mate. For the record, I don't believe any mental edge theory, I think the consensus is now that Joe felt he was past his best. Strange then that Joe should go on to say , well after Froch-Pascal, that Pascal wasn't world class, and that he'd knock Carl out in three rounds.

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:

alma wrote:

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:Have to remember that a lot of the people predicting a Calzaghe win are the same people who said Kessler would win the Super Six.

How do you know?

For the record I thought Abraham would win it

Well pardon me, perhaps we should call you Boxtradamus.




Only kidding mate. For the record, I don't believe any mental edge theory, I think the consensus is now that Joe felt he was past his best. Strange then that Joe should go on to say , well after Froch-Pascal, that Pascal wasn't world class, and that he'd knock Carl out in three rounds.

With a name like that I guessing you'd err on the side of Carl in any given argument involving the two?

You could be right Boon.


Then again you could be wrong..



I just wanted to see them fight.



But just for you, I'll try to be less partisan in future. I'll get there in the end, I'm sure.



But one serious point. In this era of fractured titles, don't you too feel a touch of sympathy for a fighter who has worked his way into a mandatory position, to be told he's not on the champion's radar?


While it's fair to say Carl wasn't on Joe's radar pre Pascal, the question is was he on Joe's radar directly post Pascal? And couldn't Joe have squeezed one more in? In a sense to compensate for the wilderness years. Long time retired remember.

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:
While it's fair to say Carl wasn't on Joe's radar pre Pascal, the question is was he on Joe's radar directly post Pascal? And couldn't Joe have squeezed one more in? In a sense to compensate for the wilderness years. Long time retired remember.

Joe was then fighting at light heavy and would not / could not get down to super middle anyway, so point, though well put, is probably moot

Calzaghe directly post Hopkins in explanation of his performance:


"Maybe I should go back down to SM, because I'm meaner and sharper at that weight"

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:Calzaghe directly post Hopkins in explanation of his performance:


"Maybe I should go back down to SM, because I'm meaner and sharper at that weight"

Cheers for this. The first time I've seen anything suggesting that

But one serious point. In this era of fractured titles, don't you too feel a touch of sympathy for a fighter who has worked his way into a mandatory position, to be told he's not on the champion's radar?

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No not really, because the champion had cleaned out the division and had other things he wanted to do.
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While it's fair to say Carl wasn't on Joe's radar pre Pascal, the question is was he on Joe's radar directly post Pascal? And couldn't Joe have squeezed one more in? In a sense to compensate for the wilderness years. Long time retired remember.

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Again, no. It's fair to say that Calzaghe had done everything he wanted to at the weight and fighting and beating Froch at that point in time would have added nothing to his legacy. I feel Joe did the right thing and signed off at the right time. The only thing I'd have changed would have been to square off against Chad Dawson or another light heavy world titleist but not a shot Roy Jones Junior.
Both fighters operated in different time zones so I never quite understood why Froch was so peeved at not getting the fight. He should have just concentrated on making his own career and legacy.

As will come as shock to nobody am massive Froch fan but the timing was just wrong for him and Joe, whilst he called him out for some time it was not until the very tail end of Joe's career that he was a legitimate or credible challenger and by that time Joe was looking to move up in weight and get a couple of big names on his ledger, even though fighting one who was shot was a mis-step, would have been better to get to Pavlik before Bhop, a fight I have no doubt he would have won.

To be honest there was not a lot in a Froch fight for Joe, worth remembering prior to Hopkins and Jones Joe did not have one nailed on HOF'er on his ledger (not a dig, merely a statement of fact) so he was obviously looking for better than mere domestic bragging rights which was all Carl bought at the time.

However in the interests of balance Carl was well within his rights to call for the fight, that is what young hungry fighter should do and no different to anything Joe did at the early stages of his career.

Agree Jeff, have no problem with Froch calling out Calzaghe, that's what he would be expected to do.

The problem I have is that Froch never shut up about fighting Joe, on and on and on and became bitter and twisted about it. That was a mistake on Froch's part because had he just shut up when he realised it was a no-go, he could have inherited a lot of Calzaghe's old fans rather than turning them right off him.

Will have to concede that point, read his book a while ago and to be honest he just came across as bitter on the whole subject. It's gone, sad thing is he is carving out the kind of ledger that warrants enough respect without Joe, the same as Joe did without Benn and Collins.

'The only thing I'd have changed would have been to square off against Chad Dawson'



Dawson was too big for him surely?