England vs India 2nd Test debate

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Sides

England:

1) Andrew Strauss (C)
2) Alistair Cook
3) Jonathan Trott
4) Kevin Pietersen
5) Ian Bell
6) Eoin Morgan
7) Matt Prior (WK)
8) Tim Bresnan
9) Stuart Broad
10) Graeme Swann
11) James Anderson

India:

1) Abhinav Makund
2) Rahul Dravid
3) Sachin Tendulkar
4) VVS Laxman
5) Yuvraj Singh
6) Suresh Raina
7) MS Dhoni (WK)
8) Harbhajan Singh
9) Praveen Kumar
10) Sreesanth
11) Ishant Sharma

The strength of a cricket side is also based on strength in depth, if they don't have that then maybe they don't deserve to be world number 1 any more. England have shown throughout the Ashes and this series that if we get an injury or two or three, we can bring in a more than capable replacement.

It is no good bleating on about Zaheer, that's just like saying well if Simon Jones hadn't been crippled by injuries then we would have won every test match he has played in...clearly incorrect.

So far, England have just shown themselves to be a better all round unit. India's batting (despite not making 300, as yet) is incredibly good, but even with Zaheer our bowling attack is still comfortably more potent, and our fielding puts theirs to shame in a big big way. Our players are just so much fitter and more naturally athletic, it would appear based on these two tests.

its going to be a very intresting day of test match cricket, hopefully with england coming out on top

I know a few of you have been saying England should (or even already should have) declare, but we're not THAT far ahead with two days left against a batting line-up including Dravid and Tendulkar. Keep pushing on to around lunch (if we get that far), batting aggressively (than again, with Prior, Broad and Swann, it's not likely thay'll just block) and see where we stand. A lead of 450ish with 5 sessions or just less would be an interesting equation for the Indians, as they could just about get there by batting well.

we also need to hope that the pitch starts to grip and turn a bit more as well..

cos its getting flat and only the new ball is getting wickets now lol, so swanny needs to be in the game

Fists of Fury wrote:The strength of a cricket side is also based on strength in depth, if they don't have that then maybe they don't deserve to be world number 1 any more. England have shown throughout the Ashes and this series that if we get an injury or two or three, we can bring in a more than capable replacement.

It is no good bleating on about Zaheer, that's just like saying well if Simon Jones hadn't been crippled by injuries then we would have won every test match he has played in...clearly incorrect.

So far, England have just shown themselves to be a better all round unit. India's batting (despite not making 300, as yet) is incredibly good, but even with Zaheer our bowling attack is still comfortably more potent, and our fielding puts theirs to shame in a big big way. Our players are just so much fitter and more naturally athletic, it would appear based on these two tests.

Yep I wouldnt quyestion that. Boycott often talks about test cricket as being a war of attrition, you wear your opponents down.
England have exposed Indias lack of fitness all round as a team. Its still a shame though that guys like Zaheer and Sehwag came into the series carrying injuries. But thats the price India play for having so many players ragged across all formats and with stupid workloads.

Its always tougher on a toruing side though, and tahts what made Indias win in SA so special at a time when SA were challenging them for the right to be xconsidered thr true number one. England winning this series by a clear margin will make them numbe ron paper, and so far they ahve been a clealry dominant side in thsi series...but I still wouldnt describe them as unarguably a better side. They do have a point to prove this winter in the sub continent, its a massive shame for dcricket they arent playing tests in india for another 18 months yet.

dummy_half wrote:I know a few of you have been saying England should (or even already should have) declare, but we're not THAT far ahead with two days left against a batting line-up including Dravid and Tendulkar. Keep pushing on to around lunch (if we get that far), batting aggressively (than again, with Prior, Broad and Swann, it's not likely thay'll just block) and see where we stand. A lead of 450ish with 5 sessions or just less would be an interesting equation for the Indians, as they could just about get there by batting well.

Unless the conditions are making the ball swing massivley and they dont want to miss that theres no reason to declare.
It would take a massive dissaster to not bowl India out in 5 sessions, having an extra half would just open the possibility of the draw being a defeat.
England are also wearing India down by keeping them in the field . Not only demoralising them but also making their tired players run around and get even more exhausted.
Take the game away from India, crush their spirit, remove the loss form the equation and go out and bowl agressivly. Thsi tactic has worked well for England in recent tests, no reason to start declaring with two days left.

England have chose the heavy roller this morning, which suggests they intend to bat on for at least a session. Morgan says the ball isn't spinning at all.

Prior and Bresnan should bat positively this session, not just look to take up time (not that I think they will). Keep the game moving forward, keep the Indians running around the field and then have a go at them in the afternoon.

dummy_half wrote:A lead of 450ish with 5 sessions or just less would be an interesting equation for the Indians, as they could just about get there by batting well.

You could get that in just over a day...

9 from the 1st over, then. Quite alarming signs for India after that first 4 for Bresnan...exploded off the pitch.

Prior gone.

8 off the first 3 balls from Kumar as well, before Prior edges to Dhoni. Still 391 ahead, but we could do with another 60 or so.

There seem to be a lot of concerns about our lead. Another 60 would be ideal, but I'd still back us to win even if we were bowled out now without adding any more runs.

Oh yeah, I mean it's almost a World record run chase as it stands, the pitch is showing signs of doing something, overhead conditions are favourable and India are without Sehwag and Gaumbir, with Dravid moving up to 2 and Laxman moving up to 3. And they haven't clicked yet, not making 300 in this series, let alone 400 in a 4th innings.

Still, England's tactic is to bat long and crush the opposition, get a massive lead and then keep the catchers in for the whole innings. Take runs out of the equation. India could well get to 300-6 or 300-7, if they're chasing 400 they'll feel they are still in the game. If they are chasing 450-500, they'll know they are still second best.

It's like Dravid talking yesterday saying England's batting keeps coming at them even when they take wickets. If India do reach 300 and still need 150 or so, it's going to really test them mentally as much as anything else.

With Bresnan in for Tremlett, our tail is literally Jimmy Anderson.

Ha yeah, it is a great batting lineup in terms of depth. Teams literally have to get everyone out, and there are no gimmes.

I reckon Straussy is waiting for Bresnan's century/loss of wicket before a declaration.

Personally I think we will bat on, expect to see Swann enter the fray after the next fall of wicket.

500 up, very impressive, and at a fair old lick, too.

There cant ever have been a team with a number 7 averageing 45, nu,ber 8 averaging 41, and number 9 averaging 29 with the bat.

The way England are going it would be worth replacing Morgan with a specialist fielder, dont need any more batting or bowling! Joking aside though I do think its worth keeping Morgan around the side, a quality player of spin could be vital when the do go to the sub continent.
His place should still be undr threat to a batsman who can offer a genuine support bowling role though ...Bopara, Patel or even Rashid perhaps.
Cant imagine England making any changes though ( unless they somehow fail to bowl India out which would be pathetic beyond reason)

500 up in the 111th over - certainly giving the bowlers a hard time.

However, a quick word of praise for Kumar. 33 overs and 3 for 120, so only going at 3.6 per over while being the main wicket taker and threat. Showing his more experienced colleagues the way.

And he's got to be knackered. I'll dig out the stats in a minute, but he has bowled A LOT over the last couple of weeks.

I think that 450 is still gettable for India. It would mean that everyone of their batsmen click and i have been expecting that at some stage.

England really should'nt lose from here though.

Kumar has been very impressive. Despite a lack of pace he controls the ball very well, always seems to get something out of the pitch, and bowls good lines and lengths.

As someone mentioned yesterday, he would be a very good signing for an English county next season, and I imagine he would take a stack of wickets, particularly in early season conditions.

60.3 overs at Lords. 55 overs so far this game. So that's 115 overs in 11 days, plus all the fielding.

dhoni bowled kumar and sreesanth too long..

come on england piling on the runs

This is ridiculous for an 8 and a 9! It does make you worry as to what DLT could do, or even wonder what Sehwag and Gaumbir would have been able to do if they were fit. Hopefully our bowling can ask more questions though.

robbo277 wrote:This is ridiculous for an 8 and a 9! It does make you worry as to what DLT could do, or even wonder what Sehwag and Gaumbir would have been able to do if they were fit. Hopefully our bowling can ask more questions though.

its just that india's bowlers have been given the runaround and they are tired and poor quality

I'd agree...I'd be very, very surprised if the Indian batsman found run scoring this easy against Jimmy, Broady and co.

Was about to lambast Broad for trying that ridiculous sweep every ball, then he goes and hits two sixes!

raina demonsrating true filth

Wow, simply wow from Broad

how are india world no1

Started the session at 450-6, now 520-7 in under an hour. Scoring quickly enough to allow the declaration to come a bit before lunch if we want (not that it's particularly necessary - plenty of time left in the game to keep grinding the Indians down if we want).

Oh, and as for letting Bresnan get to his ton, looks like Broad is trying to beat him there...

cricketfan90 wrote:how are india world no1

Through being a very, very good side. However, it appears (from what we have seen so far, this may indeed change) that they have just met their match, against what is increasingly looking like one of the finest Test sides we have seen in a long, long time.

When it clicks it clicks. Broad will be fired up to bowl and Bresnan will be on a high if he gets hos ton. England have destroyed India and the last 5 sessions.

Great fielding there. Broad gone for 44.

2nd TEST PREDICTION GAME:

With not much contest left in the game (especially not in this innings), let's create a contest here. Answer the following questions, and we'll see who gets closest to the correct answers:

Will England declare?
What lead will England take into the 4th innings?
How many balls will Mukund face?
How many balls will Dravid face?
How many runs will Tendulkar make?
How many wickets will Broad take?
How many wickets will Swann take?
What will the final match result be? (side and margin)

Broad run-out.

All this from a game where on Friday afternoon England were 124-8 and I made a comment about them doing well to scramble to 170.

Then India were 40-odd ahead for 4 down in their first innings and looking like building an imposing lead, before the last 6 wickets went for 21 and England kept themselves in the game.

Even then, we were 2 down and still trailing early in this innings, but since then England have asserted a level of superiority I've only seen before from the Aussies under Waugh and the Windies teams of the 70s and 80s.

88 runs in the first hour, by numbers 8 and 9...

Unlucky Bresnan

Shame for Bresnan, missing out on a ton

eirebilly wrote:I think that 450 is still gettable for India. It would mean that everyone of their batsmen click and i have been expecting that at some stage.

Gettable? It would smash a number of all time records for them to do that. Whuilst this is a topsy turvy game it would be almost beyond reason for that to happen with a fit English bowling attack.

Even les likely given they have makeshift openers and will be tired and demaoralised. Add Harbajans injury....its not going to happen is it.

Will England declare? No
What lead will England take into the 4th innings? 485
How many balls will Mukund face? 54
How many balls will Dravid face? 48
How many runs will Tendulkar make? 75
How many wickets will Broad take? 3
How many wickets will Swann take? 2
What will the final match result be? (side and margin) England win by 190 runs

Come on Jimmy, have a go!

PSW
Stranger things have happened... Oh, no they haven't, sorry.
Still think Strauss would like the lead to get over 500, but that's more just a psychological blow - we've enough on the board to be reasonably safe already, but it explains not declaring.

The one risk is that India do have some exceptionally good batsmen - one all time great in Tendulkar, one very close to that level in Dravid and then Laxman who's certainly world class. One day a strong batting line-up will chase down a 4th innings total in the high 400s or low 500s, and it will probably be with a lineup of this sort of strength and be based on one enormous early partnership breaking the back of the total.

Doubt it will be today and tomorrow on this wicket - Kumar is able to get movement and variabe bounce, and if England's bowlers can get the same they'll be very dangerous.

Game not really going anywhere here. Time for Swann to try and hit out. England have more than enough, no point wasting time with Anderson blocking out.

There we go.

478 to win.

In more realistic terms, 5 sessions to take 10 wickets.

Will England declare? Yes
What lead will England take into the 4th innings? 500

Well, I got that one wrong!

How many balls will Mukund face? 20
How many balls will Dravid face? 240
How many runs will Tendulkar make? 12
How many wickets will Broad take? 2
How many wickets will Swann take? 4
What will the final match result be? (side and margin) England win by 240 runs.

Graeme Swann's Cat wrote:Game not really going anywhere here. Time for Swann to try and hit out. England have more than enough, no point wasting time with Anderson blocking out.

Agreed.
Game not really going anywhere. we've got enough runs. Either hit out or declare.

Gone - 544 all out. Should leave 4 or 5 overs before lunch with India needing 488 to win.

I can only imagine they think Broad and Breadvan need a good massage before opening the bowling and that this is just annoying the Indians and adding to the nerves.
Everyone was execting them to declare, if Bell had been out their he wouldve walked off. Does seem to be a case of mind games.
With 5 sesssions left, a couple of overs here and there is pretty irrelevant timewise.