Third test: Bresnan or Tremlett?

by hodge Mon 01 Aug 2011, 10:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

As title says really, who would you go with if Tremlett fully recovers by the time of the test. Can you drop Bresnan after his performance at Trent Bridge?

Personal opinion Bresnan should get the chance to back up his performances from this test and potentially in the last test too depending how Edgebaston goes. Then Bres and Trem should fight it out for the spot for the winter tour.

by Carrotdude Wed 03 Aug 2011, 2:47 pm

Gregers wrote:Tremlett not playing today for Surrey

I don't think he ever would have been allowed to anyway in the middle of a Test series so I don't think it means anything.

by Gregers Wed 03 Aug 2011, 2:50 pm

Well its significant as it means that he wont have played between the two tests, therefore his first action if recalled would be with the new ball for England.

by Twitchey Wed 03 Aug 2011, 4:36 pm

Personally, I like aggressive cricket, and have a great deal of confidence in the England middle or lower order to get runs.

Therefore, all players fit, I would love to see a five man attack, with Morgan dropped. Psychologically, I think it would be horrible to walk out to bat knowing that once (or rather IF) you have fended off the first pace partnership (perhaps Tremlett and Anderson), you still have another pace partnership to come, and once they are finished you'll have to face the world's top spin bowler and whomever out of previous four is bowling the best.

5 quality bowlers = more quality balls bowled = less Trott and KP bowling = more pressure = less runs scored by opposition etc.

There have been lots of debate about the 2005 squad vs. this squad. The 2005 squad had a pace quartet because Flintoff could give the 'balance'. I consider that Broad, Bresnan and Swann between them have the equivilent batting of at least 1.5 all rounders, and therefore consider this to be a viable option.

Finally, having 5 bowlers may lessen the chances of injury through overwork.

In answer to the question, I don't mind at all, I THINK that if Tremlett is fit he will play though, because he is the bowler that batsmen would least like to face.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 03 Aug 2011, 6:18 pm

Twitchey wrote:Personally, I like aggressive cricket, and have a great deal of confidence in the England middle or lower order to get runs.

Therefore, all players fit, I would love to see a five man attack, with Morgan dropped. Psychologically, I think it would be horrible to walk out to bat knowing that once (or rather IF) you have fended off the first pace partnership (perhaps Tremlett and Anderson), you still have another pace partnership to come, and once they are finished you'll have to face the world's top spin bowler and whomever out of previous four is bowling the best.

5 quality bowlers = more quality balls bowled = less Trott and KP bowling = more pressure = less runs scored by opposition etc.

There have been lots of debate about the 2005 squad vs. this squad. The 2005 squad had a pace quartet because Flintoff could give the 'balance'. I consider that Broad, Bresnan and Swann between them have the equivilent batting of at least 1.5 all rounders, and therefore consider this to be a viable option.

Finally, having 5 bowlers may lessen the chances of injury through overwork.

In answer to the question, I don't mind at all, I THINK that if Tremlett is fit he will play though, because he is the bowler that batsmen would least like to face.

The 2005 side never got ranked above 2. Just saying....

by msp83 Wed 03 Aug 2011, 6:45 pm

Well, Tim B had an outstanding test, a 5fer, a 90, and a hit to Yuvraj that send him flying to India. You couldn't have asked for more.
But if Chris Tremlett is fit, I would take, a very, very harsh call on the York star and would send him back to county cricket, not because he's not good enough, but because the other one is better, and is likely to trouble the best batters around. Jimmy Anderson may have continued to pocket Sachin Tendulkar, but if you ask him which England bowler he would rather not face, I am sure it will be Chris Tremlett. Tremlett gets the ball to bounce from a good length, and the Indians really do not fancy those offerings.
The best option though, particularly considering Trott's not quite up to it with his fittness, is to play them both. Bresnan, Broad and Swann are decent enough with the bat to be considered bowling all-rounnders, and with them all playing, England bats down to 9, and that sourt of cancel out the impact of Trott missing. May be not a permanent way to go for England, but at least that would give Bresnan an Tremlett some time to establish themselves as the 3rd seamer.
And I haven't heard all the talk about leaving Graeme Swann out unless he's not fit to take to the park!. He's the glue who holds it all together for England's 4 man attack.
The Indian batting lineup may not have fired collectively so far, but with Sehwag and Gambhir coming back at the top, and Tendulkar finally getting among the runs, don't think it will all be easy. If Sehwag gets going, Samit Patel won't be bowling 2 overs.
Its a huge insult to the world's best spinner that he can be replaced by a a below average player.
lets talk about the Rashids and the Panesars and the Tredwells if Swann is not fit!!.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 03 Aug 2011, 7:45 pm

So lets talk about 3 below average players?

Sorry but for me if trott is injured its far to risky to go with 5 bowlers. We've seen the limit of Prior, Bresnan and Broads batting ability recently, not the norm.
A tail of Prior (5), Morgan, Bresnan, Broad, Anderson, Tremlet, Panessar is very long when your openers are celebrating 30's. Only KP, Bell and Prior would fill me with confidence that they could stand up to Khan if he gets on a roll again.
Whilst being aggressive and being a result orintated pick that side would give India the sniff of victory they need even if they had 4 harbijans bowling.
To my mind if Trotts injured he gets replaced by a batsman, Id err toward Taylor although that does make the suppoprt bowling non existant.
If Swanns injured and Trotts in sure replace him with a specialist spinner...tredwell or panessar
If Trott and Swann are out ...boy of boy. Thats where the balancing comes in. Id go with Patel and 4 seamers, not because Im a Patel fan but I just dont see how else to get the attack right and keep batting depth. That plan gets the best of the seamers and allows strauss to avoid going to spin, whilst still having the option there. Just to add I woulkd prefer the risk of Rashid, but he seems out of the picture as far as the england selectors are concerned which is a shame. We will need a batting spinner to give the option of a two spinner attack in the sri lanka tour, thats going to be patel by the looks of it.
If noones out injured Id stick with Bresnan, but I wouldnt be upset to see Tremlett get back in. There could be a case for an exciting choice like "rotating" Morgan out for Taylor but I dont see it happening. I think theyd rather give morgan a chance to figure out a technique for dealing with bowling.
Generaly you dont change a side that just put in one of its best peformances in decades...well for 3 and half innings at least.

by Twitchey Wed 03 Aug 2011, 8:12 pm

Peter - The 2005 team did beat every other test team, including a strong SA team in SA. They would have needed to carry on and progress for considerable time however to displace 'The Dominators'. Both England teams are a long way off emulating the success of that Australian team.

Like I said, I prefer risky, aggressive cricket ... because I'm a typical armchair supporter.

I really don't think that the Flower and Strauss will go for a 5 man attack ...

Regarding, Swanns replacement if his hand injury keeps him out ... well let's hope that doesn't happen, because we won't be as good without him: he's offers a tremendous spirit to the side as well as excellent slip catching.

by activereactive Wed 03 Aug 2011, 8:36 pm

We have over 2700 registred users, and only 25 of them voted steam

by Twitchey Wed 03 Aug 2011, 8:47 pm

I can't decide

by Guest Wed 03 Aug 2011, 9:12 pm

Twitchey wrote:I can't decide

good thing your not a selector lol

by Makrish Wed 03 Aug 2011, 9:14 pm

Has to be Bresnan for me. Bresnan's averaging 13 with the ball, Broad 11, Anderson 23. Tremlett's averaging 32. With the form that Broad is in, with both bat and ball, Bresnan and Anderson bowling well, I don't think we need a fourth seamer.

However, with Zaheer coming back, and considering the damage he did on the first day at Lord's, we'd do well to bat them out of the match. It's a good thing that our batting line up went down to 10 in that last match, and it'd be even better if we could keep it that way in the next match.

As an aside, if we win this next match, perhaps we can drop Morgan for Taylor/Hales for the last Test just to see how they perform against a top team.

by Guest Wed 03 Aug 2011, 9:18 pm

lol whoever can keep the little master quiet

by Stellar Key Wed 03 Aug 2011, 9:21 pm

Twitchey wrote:I can't decide

I can't decide yet. I need to think over all factors and give an answer by end of the week.

Deep thoughts zen

by Makrish Wed 03 Aug 2011, 9:23 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:lol whoever can keep the little master quiet

I think Anderson has that role.

by Twitchey Wed 03 Aug 2011, 9:44 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:
Twitchey wrote:I can't decide

good thing your not a selector lol

by Liam_Main Wed 03 Aug 2011, 9:47 pm

Makrish wrote:
cricketfan90 wrote:lol whoever can keep the little master quiet

I think Anderson has that role.

With Broady not to far behind

by Liam_Main Wed 03 Aug 2011, 9:49 pm

Another issue I would say England have is if Trotts not fit do we play 5 bowlers or bring in another Batsman? Possibly Taylor/Hales

by Twitchey Thu 04 Aug 2011, 8:16 am

Ok ... I have finally made up my mind:

- If Trott is 100% and Tremmers too, then Tremmers plays. Because as Atherton says "Tremmlet has to play"
- if there are concerns regarding either then Bresnan
- if Trott doesn't play then bring in Taylor, if not him then play Bresnan AND Tremlett, because I fancy Bresnan's form to play the Z Khan's swinging ball better than Bopora (sorry Ravi!)

by liverbnz Thu 04 Aug 2011, 8:25 am

I can't see England playing 5 bowlers. Flower all but ruled it out in his interview following the 2nd Test. If Trott's not fit, Bopara is most likely to play. If both Tremlett and Bresnan are fit, then conditions will play a part in the decision.

by Guest Thu 04 Aug 2011, 10:28 am

bresnan will play lol, they wont drop him after his performance in the last test

by Makrish Thu 04 Aug 2011, 11:59 am

I'd love to see Taylor take the spot ahead of Bopara, mostly because Bopara has had his chance, and although we have reserve bowlers who are tried and tested in the first XI (Finn, Bresnan), we don't have too many reserve batsmen around. Perhaps Trott's injury is a blessing in disguise, where we'll have to resort to the new talent around, to see how they perform.

by pulkpull Thu 04 Aug 2011, 12:21 pm

It's an odd one this because I don't see them as competition for each other in the long run. Tremmers seems to me the ideal choice for opening the bowling with Anderson - Broad and Bresnan both operate better as first change in my book (does anyone have any figures for Broad's bowling as an opener vs. change?) and also provide the lower order runs.

But given the situation now, in a straight fight it surely has to be Bresnan after the TB test, and his recent performances in general. As long as his short ball stays as accurate as it was in the last game he won't go far wrong.

If Trott isn't fit then I'd be sorely tempted to shove Prior up to 6 and play the 5 bowlers - but is that really necessary in English conditions? Maybe better to blood a new bat.

by Guest Thu 04 Aug 2011, 12:24 pm

Makrish wrote:I'd love to see Taylor take the spot ahead of Bopara, mostly because Bopara has had his chance, and although we have reserve bowlers who are tried and tested in the first XI (Finn, Bresnan), we don't have too many reserve batsmen around. Perhaps Trott's injury is a blessing in disguise, where we'll have to resort to the new talent around, to see how they perform.

your joking right..

there are plenty of reserve batsman around, in fact in every single county there is at least 1 or 2 batsman that could play for england

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 04 Aug 2011, 12:31 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:
Makrish wrote:I'd love to see Taylor take the spot ahead of Bopara, mostly because Bopara has had his chance, and although we have reserve bowlers who are tried and tested in the first XI (Finn, Bresnan), we don't have too many reserve batsmen around. Perhaps Trott's injury is a blessing in disguise, where we'll have to resort to the new talent around, to see how they perform.

your joking right..

there are plenty of reserve batsman around, in fact in every single county there is at least 1 or 2 batsman that could play for england

Yep many of those kpolpaks have been here long enough to qualify.

I guess the point is that they arent test ready. There isnt a senior batsman who could just step into teh side and feel comfortable.
Its not like when we had Bell twiddling his tumbs crying to be recalled. The nearest there is is Bopara who has a few tests under his belt, it would be nice to see Taylor continue his development and become a proper replacement when required....not just a "well its his first test so lets not expect too much"

by Guest Thu 04 Aug 2011, 12:32 pm

they dont have to be experienced, the only way they will get experienced is by playing!

if we went by your policy then no one would be experienced cos no one esle would play.

by pulkpull Thu 04 Aug 2011, 12:36 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:in fact in every single county there is at least 1 or 2 batsman that could play for england

Could...

...but would they be successful?

We've seen so many examples over the years of excellent county players failing to make the step up - so many that I think it's not fair to say that there are so many waiting to jump in and perform. You just don't know - test cricket is a totally different animal.

Having said that though, I have more faith in this England squad - and it's management - to better deal with the integration of a new player than at any point in the past. It's always easier to come into a (touch wood) successful team, and there certainly seems to be a good spirit at the moment.

by Guest Thu 04 Aug 2011, 1:04 pm

ok fine i wll name then (only talking about batsman)

Derbyshire- Wayne Madsen and Wes Durston
Durham- Phil Mustard
Essex- Ravi Bopara
Glamorgan- ok so they have no one lol
Gloucestershire- ok so they have no one lol
Hampshire- James Vince
Kent- Joe Denly, Sam Northeast
Lecistershire- James Taylor, Josh Cobb
Lanchashire- Tom Smith, Steve Croft
Middlesex- Dawid Malan
Northants- Alex Wakely
Notts- Alex Hales, Samit Patel
Somerset- Craig Kieswetter, James Hildreth
Sussex- Luke Wells,
Worcestershire- Moeen Ali
Surrey- Rory Hamilton- Brown, Jason Roy
Yorkshire- Rashid, Lyth, Gale, Bairstow

by Makrish Thu 04 Aug 2011, 1:06 pm

My point exactly, pulk. Test cricket is entirely different to CC, as you have the expectations of a nation bearing down on you, 20,000 fans screaming, and the best bowlers the opposite nation has to offer trying their best to get you out.

Hopefully by blooding a new batsmen (Taylor/Hales) soon, we won't have to pull a complete unknown out of the hat, like we did with Trott, or have someone like Bopara come in.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 04 Aug 2011, 1:11 pm

This is a bit of a circular argument...the point is you give them a chance when it makes sense, like now with Taylor when Trotts injured. Or on a low key tour when someone is rested. That way you build up experienced reserves.
Its a problem for England that they havent done this with the batsmen, wheres with the bowlers theyve managed to get guys like Bresnan who have a few tests under their belt and can step in and be expected to perform.
Its not good to just randomly parachute players into the side, but they should be developed through the system like Taylor is being and gradualy integrated as required. An injury to Trott would seem an idela time. Either that or a final last chance for Bopara.

by Guest Thu 04 Aug 2011, 1:11 pm

i think if trott is injured then it is defo out of taylor and bopara.

by msp83 Thu 04 Aug 2011, 1:14 pm

wow!. that's some list CF!!!.
Mark Ramprakash Surrey!!!!!.

by Guest Thu 04 Aug 2011, 1:18 pm

i only wrote players that have a chance of playing for england or the lions, and ramps dosent any more

by Makrish Thu 04 Aug 2011, 1:30 pm

I don't think Northeast has any chance of getting into the Lions or the England squad. He doesn't perform consistently enough. As for Mustard and Kieswetter, they wouldn't get in as a specialist batsman. The only ones from that list I think are likely to get in as a specialist batsman are Taylor, Patel, Hales and maybe Bairstow.

by msp83 Thu 04 Aug 2011, 1:35 pm

Think potential players and ready replacements are entirely different things. Someone like Bresnan, Finn or Shahzad have some experience either at the test level or at the ODI level to back them They have shown tey are up to it at the highest leel, and although they may not always perform like the first choice players, there is reasonable expectations of them.
Someone like James Vince may play for England at some point in his career. whether he has got the right temprament and technique remains to be seen.
Ravi Bopara has been a massive scorer in county cricket, but he found the move up to the next level pretty tough. Ramprakash is another, a county legend, and a nobody at international level.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 04 Aug 2011, 1:52 pm

Yeah I think the point is that whilst most players in that list have the potential one day be good enough to be in the england side very few of them could actually be parachutted into the side and reasoanbly expected to make the grade.
See current Australian selection policy.

by alfie Thu 04 Aug 2011, 2:21 pm

You don't change the very successful balance of the team and pick 5 bowlers just to avoid making a hard choice.
Consider: England (4 bowlers) has dismissed India 4 times for under 300.
Even with 6 batsmen, England has twice been reduced to panic-inducing positions (62/5 and 124/8) only to be rescued by the "tail".
Which section needs additional (or at least equal) strength ?
Looks pretty straightforward to me...

Tough on Tremlett but Bresnan took his chance so brilliantly I'd be inclined to reward him with another match. Tremlett will be back.

If Trott is out , a good time to see how Taylor handles Test cricket - the only way to find out is to play him.
Hopefully Swann is OK because otherwise PSW's Patel + 4 pace bowlers option looks best , yet I somehow find it a little ...artificial ? Just doesn't seem to be more than a once only selection, and I rather like the continuity that the selectors have established recently.

by wintikarl Thu 04 Aug 2011, 2:43 pm

Bresnan! In form bowler.
Not being superstitious at all, I find it remarkable that England hae never lost a test with Bresnan in the side.
Plus: I never want to see Bpara in an England shirt again, please.

by Makrish Thu 04 Aug 2011, 6:48 pm

Swann has declared himself fit.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2011/content/current/story/525976.html

That kind of puts Patel out of the equation, then.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 04 Aug 2011, 7:40 pm

yay for swann

by wintikarl Thu 04 Aug 2011, 8:33 pm

Patel who?

by dummy_half Fri 05 Aug 2011, 11:11 am

At least it's a good problem to have.

As others have mentioned, really Bresnan and Tremlett aren't in the squad for the same reasons - Tremlett is selected as a pure opening bowler who can hit the deck hard and get bounce, whereas Bresnan is more a change bowler who can bat (much more comparable with Broad).

So far, Tremlett has bowled well and with little luck in one match, whereas Bresnan bowled well with some luck (and a surprising amount of aggression) so has better looking figures. Bresnan also scored runs, but those were really a bonus in the context of the match.

Tough choice, but I think on balance Bresnan should keep his place, especially if he continues to produce spells of bowling that get the Indians hopping around like he did at TB - if he doesn't manage this so well at Edgbaston, bring Tremlett back for the Oval regardless of the batting strength question.

by dyrewolfe Fri 05 Aug 2011, 1:05 pm

Think I'd go with Bresnan on form and batting ability. His 90 at TB may have been superfluous in the context of the match, but given England quite often depend on a few individuals to win matches for them, I'd be happier with the extra batting ability.

Broad has rediscovered his form with both bat and ball and Jimmy is bowling well too, so we seem okay for opening bowlers right now.

by Guest Fri 05 Aug 2011, 3:04 pm

bresnan will play mate you cant drop someone after they have scored 90 and took 5for

by Guest Fri 05 Aug 2011, 3:22 pm

will be an intresting cintest between swann and mishra, especially with the pitch likely to turn at edgbaston, and mishra with an excellent googly

by Carrotdude Fri 05 Aug 2011, 3:38 pm

I never would have thought, 5 years ago, that I would be happy for Bresnan to be a first 11 Test match bowler for us, the improvement he has made since his debut is astonishing. All credit to him as he has worked very hard to get where he is, it also shows that just because someone isn't pulling up trees when they are 21 doesn't mean that they can't develop further down the line and become international quality.

by dummy_half Fri 05 Aug 2011, 3:50 pm

Carrot
Look also at the success that Ryan Sidebottom had when he was recalled to the Test side. At 21 he was too young and didn't understand what he should be doing, but at 28ish he was a top class swing bowler who understood his technique and how to cause batsmen problems.

Bresnan hasn't taken that long to get to the top of the game, but your point still holds - sometimes it takes a bit longer for a player to develop.

by Guest Fri 05 Aug 2011, 6:04 pm

bresnan will be class

by Corporalhumblebucket Fri 05 Aug 2011, 6:45 pm

Carrotdude wrote:I never would have thought, 5 years ago, that I would be happy for Bresnan to be a first 11 Test match bowler for us, the improvement he has made since his debut is astonishing. All credit to him as he has worked very hard to get where he is, it also shows that just because someone isn't pulling up trees when they are 21 doesn't mean that they can't develop further down the line and become international quality.

Carrot - in a different context I could also give an honourable mention to the Viscount - Surrey's leading bowler this season. Linley looked destined to be a willing but limited squad player making only the occasional first team appearance. But he has really developed in his late twenties. (Not that I am suggesting him for England he adds hastily Very Happy

)

by Carrotdude Fri 05 Aug 2011, 7:58 pm

Yep, Linley is an example that shows my point again but at a lower level, he is most definitely the leader of the Surrey attack now in the CC having looked like he wasn't cut out for county cricket.

I have a feeling that Rashid will still come good and end up being England's main spinner after Swann when he is a bit older and has bowled many many more overs.

by Stellar Key Sun 07 Aug 2011, 11:29 am

Bresnan or Tremlett

Bresnan is the incumbent and with a fine all round performance he deserves another match.

Depending on the pitch and the weather I'd be tempted to to play a four man pace attack plus the spinner. However with the slightly, in parts very fragile batting the team will most likely be 6 batters WK, 3 pace and 1 spin.

It's not the right balance for me but england hope it will be alright

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