The Cobra vs The Celtic Warrior

It was simply from reading a previous thread about Super Middleweight title holders that led me to think abou this potential fantasy match up. Intriguing in many ways as neither fighter is considered textbook brilliant but both are considered made from the stern stuff. Who wins this Super Middleweight battle?

I think its too close to call. It would be hard not to see this going this distance. Both men live to anyones standard of teak tough and being able to brawl. Collins was a limited fighter blessed with an unbelievable chin, fearless mentality and workrate matched by only the busiest fighters. Froch is equally tough and I would suspect more powerful than Collins, but would struggle to match the Irishmans workrate.

On paper their records are not a million miles apart. Collins was matched early with the likes of Mike McCallum where he gave the Body Snatcher all he could handle down the stretch. Robbed against Reggie Johnson, he then went to the wire with the very underated Sumbu Kalambay. His big wins came later in his career against (albeit faded) rivals Benn and Eubank. Often criticised for not facing Calzaghe - which at the time was perfectly reasonable in my view, I still maintain to this day that Jones Jr was more than happy to let the fight slide as he often did when faced with a hungry rival. I think Collins said it best of all when he said " I was no great boxer, but I made the most of what I had and I would fight anyone that was willing".

Froch is still going and has been matching himself against the best the division has to offer for years now. Outside his toughness he has no real outstanding attribute which I think likens him to Collins. Already an impressive resume at the weight and on the verge now of pound for pound material I think he would start as the bookies favourite against Collins.

However I find this a coin flip fight largely due to Collins stamina and workrate and ability to disrupt Froch from his game plan. The two are so evenly matched for a brawl it seems like a great fight on paper and I cant see either man taking a backward step.

My instict would be a desperately close UD/SD to Collins 114-113 by virtue of outworking Froch and nicking the close rounds.

Interesting match up. Froch has the better power and Collins the better chin although they both have iron chins. Fight would certainly go to the cards for this reason. I'd also take Collins for a close decision 115-113 based on his high workrate. Froch would land the more effective punches though imo. Imperative for Froch to get out the blocks early in this one and not waste to much time feeling out Collins.

Froch, for me. Much more boxing ability, with a chin to match that of Collins.

Is a tricky one to call because as you have already alluded to Froch can be a little lazy in some rounds and often does not really put the exclamation point on rounds he is winning as was often the case against Johnson, and against a relentless pressure guy like Collins this could be costly.

However for all that have had to go with Froch, think he is just that bit more rounded and Steve for all his iron jaw was not too hard to find and Froch does throw big impressive looking shots which if they found Steve enough would look good to the judges. Realise as well this is a little bit of a can of worms comment but I also feel with Collins there is a slight element of him catching his bigger winning names at the right time. Prime for prime have to go with the more rounded ability and that for me is Carl.

Froch for me, reason being once you scrap away the crudeness he's actually got some skills. Collins was just relentless but could be outboxed. A shot Eubank gave him utter hell, if it became a tear up Froch for me has the heavier hands and the better ability to get his shots off, Froch also has the ability to kill the fight tempo much like he did with Abraham in terms of getting Collins to dance to his tune by using that big long rangy jab.

If it descended into all out warfare i reckon it'd have been one for the ages though!

I would tend to agree that Benn was faded significantly for the Collins fights but not convinced an unbeaten Eubank was. The argument that he was never the same post Watson is valid, but thats going back years and his second fight with Benn didnt inicate he was too badly offhis game. Certainly not peak, but by the same token not shot either.

Ok i've maybe exaggerated on the "shotness" of Eubank, but when he had Collins reeling and hurt he didn't step on the gas to try and stop him. For me he was 2 years past his best, still feel he left part of himself in the ring following the 2 wars he had with Benn and obviously the mental scars he carried post Watson.

Still think Froch is just better in all aspects than Collins, chin included.

Agree Lion Eubank was still a live opponent but I do feel he had certainly lost an ability to pull the trigger a little at that point, and there was at least one point he had Steve going in one of the fights (memory forgets which) Have to think a previously excellent finisher as Chris was could have potentially had Steve out of there but for this, however in terms of fitness and the like would agree Chris still had enough in the tank to be considered a live opponent.

Certainly possible rowley, though I think its an incredibly tough ask to put away someone of Collins set up. I remember him as not much more than a kid fighting Mike McCallum and thinking there was no way this scrawny looking kid would go the distance but he somehow managed walk through hell to give McCallum a fight where he really had to earn his money.

Always felt Eubanks tendancy to take his foot off the gas, posture and stop working and need to be comfortable in the ring was a serious liability against high work rate pressure fighters like Collins so even at his best there was a threat there. We saw with Collins and later Calzaghe that Eubank had problems with fighters that just kept working. Ray close was anther that arguably beat him in one fight with high work rate that I would rate as probably a notch below Collins.

I actually think stylewise smeone like Froch is made for Eubank while fighters in the Collins mode just make him very uncomfortable.

Another interesting aspect would be how the fight would go from Frochs perspective. Originally he seemed incapable of turning down a good scrap, but since the Kessler defeat hes shown a much more measured side that relies on boxing over brawling. However Collins only gear was to brawl so it would be interesting to see whether Froch would try to box his way to a victory or whether he simply couldnt help getting dragged into a war with the Irishman against his better judgement.

60:40 in Collins favour for me, maybe even 55:45. Close points win thanks to higher work rate after a barn-storming 12 rounds. Froch would start a little slow, losing tight early rounds then settle down with his better boxing skills to take the mid rounds before the championship rounds turn into a war as Carl can't keep himself away from his natural instinct to scrap. Collins takes it by 1 or 2 rounds max.

I think Froch is a much better boxer & could go toe to toe with Collins when needed. It would be very tight but i think Froch proved against Pascal that he can work a full fight when needed. I would give a UD to Froch who i think would match Collins in the trenches & just have that bit more ability to get more telling shots through.

TopHat24/7 wrote:60:40 in Collins favour for me, maybe even 55:45. Close points win thanks to higher work rate after a barn-storming 12 rounds. Froch would start a little slow, losing tight early rounds then settle down with his better boxing skills to take the mid rounds before the championship rounds turn into a war as Carl can't keep himself away from his natural instinct to scrap. Collins takes it by 1 or 2 rounds max.

Since Kessler Froch HAS shown he can control his scrapping instinct.

BALTIMORA wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:60:40 in Collins favour for me, maybe even 55:45. Close points win thanks to higher work rate after a barn-storming 12 rounds. Froch would start a little slow, losing tight early rounds then settle down with his better boxing skills to take the mid rounds before the championship rounds turn into a war as Carl can't keep himself away from his natural instinct to scrap. Collins takes it by 1 or 2 rounds max.

Since Kessler Froch HAS shown he can control his scrapping instinct.

He's only fought twice since Kessler, Abrahams where he did indeed show control with an excellent boxing performance and showcase of his skills but against Johnson his performance was much less cultured. Left hand low, caught with a few big overhand rights and he'd get all revved up and go after Johnson (arguably the only time he actually looked good in the fight). To me that doesn't show he's transformed into a purist boxer who won't get drawn into a scrap. Fighting a war machine like Collins is totally different to Abes or Johnson, the Ward fight will be the greatest show of how far he's really come.

I didn't say he'd become the second coming of SRL. I said he'd shown he can demonstrate restraint.

BALTIMORA wrote:I didn't say he'd become the second coming of SRL. I said he'd shown he can demonstrate restraint.

Haha sorry, I didn't mean to come across flippant. I just think a lot has been made of Froch's new found restraint but I don't think it's been overly tested yet. Ward will be that test and I pray he comes through it as I can't stand Andre Ward!

tough one... its all been said already really but Collins better work rate might edge it for me. Froch has the better tools but i never get the feeling that he wants to work a full round and thought he looked uncomfortable with johnson in his face early doors.... collins would be there the whole fight.

No way in my opinion that Collins gets close to a prime froch, been, eubank or calzaghe. I would liken him to a prime Robin Reid (I do realise Robin Reid took calzaghe close but I don't think it was the finished article calzaghe).

Think it would be a close fight. Collins only lost tio the absolute elite and he gave a very decent account of himself in those fights.

Right place right time for Collins, picked off what remained of Benn and Eubank after many a war and personal anguish, loses to the more rounded Froch 9 out of 10.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Right place right time for Collins, picked off what remained of Benn and Eubank

The same could be said of Froch who only got his WBC belt because Calzaghe moved up?

Not really because he didn't get a reputation from beating two british greats well past their bests.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Not really because he didn't get a reputation from beating two british greats well past their bests.

Yeah but I was talking about being in the right place at the right time bit. Besides I see Collins being a handful for any version of Eubank and Benn, who in fairness were not as great as a lot of people make out. For example, I remember Eubank never got props for being regarded as a true world champion with his WBO belt and was derided because of his lack of ambition. 15 years on and he's lauded. Short memories. Benn's ambition was only marginally better. And given that neither fought the likes of legends like McCallum I don't think a prime Benn or Eubank necessarily get past Collins.

Super D Boon wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Right place right time for Collins, picked off what remained of Benn and Eubank

The same could be said of Froch who only got his WBC belt because Calzaghe moved up?

So now you're saying Calzaghe would have beaten Froch...



When previously it was Calzaghe rejected the fight because he was past his best...




And when he did move up he didn't fight a legitimate LH either...



Dawson would have come to Cardiff too...



Froch UD Collins in a terrific all-action affair.

I don't think anyone can accuse any boxer of being in the right place at the right time, while defending Calzaghe.

WBO, Warren, vacant belt, lackluster division, reluctance to travel...

How is it being in the right place when your the number one contender for a belt, had Calzaghe moved up or not is irrelevant Froch would still have been fighting for the WBC title, it's hardly his fault that Calzaghe moved up to take on an admittadly bigger challenge in Hopkins.

Collins scraped past Eubank twice at a time he was well past his best and gun shy following the Watson incident so yes he was in the right place at the right time, Benn himself had been in many wars before the Collins fight and was visibly shop worn. Don't think either blow Collins away but he was fortunate with the timing of the fight.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:How is it being in the right place when your the number one contender for a belt, had Calzaghe moved up or not is irrelevant Froch would still have been fighting for the WBC title, it's hardly his fault that Calzaghe moved up to take on an admittadly bigger challenge in Hopkins.

Collins scraped past Eubank twice at a time he was well past his best and gun shy following the Watson incident so yes he was in the right place at the right time, Benn himself had been in many wars before the Collins fight and was visibly shop worn. Don't think either blow Collins away but he was fortunate with the timing of the fight.

Calzaghe delayed the Hopkins fight till the only other option was the Cobra, hasn't anyone noticed? Also to say Hopkins is a bigger challenge than a prime Cobra is a matter of debate seeing as how Hopkins doesn't hit anything like as hard as the Cobra.

Hopkins even at 43 was a bigger challenger than anyone in or around the 168-175lb region, he doesn't hit quite as hard as Froch but i've never considered Froch to have the power to trouble Calzaghe who's taken shots from far bigger punchers.

nice match up? i go for froch due to better boxing ability but who knows, as Rowley said, Froch does take rounds off and sometimes when he lands a great punch just stands there and admires it, which would be costly against Collins. Would be a fantastic fight tho

www.maineventboxing.wordpress.com

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Hopkins even at 43 was a bigger challenger than anyone in or around the 168-175lb region, he doesn't hit quite as hard as Froch but i've never considered Froch to have the power to trouble Calzaghe who's taken shots from far bigger punchers.

The power isn't really the main consideration here ghosty. It's the jab and Carls ability to control range. He keeps Joe dangling on the end of the jab all night long, and Joe would be so weary of coming inside to be met with that venomous right cross. Nightmare stylewise for Joe this one, there I said it, Froch by wide punishing ud or early to mid stoppage.

Don't think Froch's jab is good enough to control a fighter of the calibre of Calzaghe who simply outworks him on the way to a clear and comfortable victory, could only really envisage Froch winning 1 or 2 rounds against the Welshman, he couldn't control Dirrell or Johnson with his jab so how on earth does he control Calzaghe with it?

Calzaghe would have to come to the Cobra, if he backed off he'd be in deep trouble. Dirrell hates coming forward that's the difference. I see Carl controlling the range. If you disagree fine. Why didn't Calzaghe just take the fight seeing as Carl's not in his league. Easy money, and there was too much money to earn wasn't there! He can't hurt Carl either, and Carl roughs him up on the inside too. Absolute nightmare for Joe this one.

He didn't take the fight because he had bigger fish to fry and more money to earn against Hopkins, can't honestly believe that anyone thinks Froch is more of a challenge than BHOP. Calzaghe is a fighter who loves going forward and against a wide open defence he's going to have a field day, even style wise I don't see what Froch has to trouble him unlike Kessler and Hopkins who did have the style to. Kessler a fighter with an excellent jab and no worse than Froch's couldn't keep Calzaghe off him and he throws it with far more regularity and spite too.

You see we disagree, Froch has a far better jab than Kessler and is a far superior fighter, Kessler's out of the super six, he withdrew remember. And Froch is in the final. A superior fighter.

More money to earn? Pre Pascal yes, but post Pascal I'm not so sure. A Calzaghe/Froch fight would have been our version of the Jones/Hopkins or Jones/Tunney fight. Would have been huge there's no doubting that. But Calzaghe was past his best all of a sudden.

Kessler beat Froch.

Is Herman on the wind-up?

Press Row , vindictive left wing anti Nottingham Guardian, showtime legend and jew albernstein all score it to Froch.

I think Hopkins over Froch at lightheavy is a no brainer from Calzaghes perspective. Genuine ATG and chance to become a champion (alkbeit Ring version) in two weight classes.

Post Hopkins the Jones fight was just some cynical financial matchmaking and one could certainly argue Froch was a more credible test then. But around that time Pavlik was seen as the hot property so a fight with Pavlik would have been much bigger business and seen as more credible.

Froch is only now beginning to get recognition in Britain, so a fight back then would not have been all that big. I think the Kessler fight showed the level Froch is at which is similar enough to Kessler. Calzaghe proved by beating him and getting a decision against Hopkins that hes probably a level above.

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:How is it being in the right place when your the number one contender for a belt, had Calzaghe moved up or not is irrelevant Froch would still have been fighting for the WBC title, it's hardly his fault that Calzaghe moved up to take on an admittadly bigger challenge in Hopkins.

Collins scraped past Eubank twice at a time he was well past his best and gun shy following the Watson incident so yes he was in the right place at the right time, Benn himself had been in many wars before the Collins fight and was visibly shop worn. Don't think either blow Collins away but he was fortunate with the timing of the fight.

Calzaghe delayed the Hopkins fight till the only other option was the Cobra, hasn't anyone noticed? Also to say Hopkins is a bigger challenge than a prime Cobra is a matter of debate seeing as how Hopkins doesn't hit anything like as hard as the Cobra.

Now sorry this is just silly!

I'm one of Froch's biggest fans I can admit he lost against Kessler, the scoredcards were a joke but doesn't detract from the actual result being the right one.

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:You see we disagree, Froch has a far better jab than Kessler and is a far superior fighter, Kessler's out of the super six, he withdrew remember. And Froch is in the final. A superior fighter.

This confirms it to me. You're giving Froch fans a bad name with these comments!

Too right D, consider myself as big a Froch fan as they come and even I may have to beat a hasty retreat from this one soon.

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:Press Row , vindictive left wing anti Nottingham Guardian, showtime legend and jew albernstein all score it to Froch.

eh?

116-112 Calzaghe for me, tees off on Frich's wide-open movement-free head all night long, picking up round after round. Froch to have his moments, and never get wobbled particularly, but he hasn't the power to scare or down Calzaghe and he'll not help himself but getting sloppy/lazy during rounds in periods.

Really really like Froch, one of my favourite boxers, and if he goes on to take out Ward and Bute and avenge Kessler will go down as somewhat of a British great (arguably ahead of Clazaghe even) but I just can't see him winning the fight, maybe 20% chance at best.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Herman Frotchlinger wrote:Press Row , vindictive left wing anti Nottingham Guardian, showtime legend and jew albernstein all score it to Froch.

eh?

116-112 Calzaghe for me, tees off on Frich's wide-open movement-free head all night long, picking up round after round. Froch to have his moments, and never get wobbled particularly, but he hasn't the power to scare or down Calzaghe and he'll not help himself but getting sloppy/lazy during rounds in periods.

Really really like Froch, one of my favourite boxers, and if he goes on to take out Ward and Bute and avenge Kessler will go down as somewhat of a British great (arguably ahead of Clazaghe even) but I just can't see him winning the fight, maybe 20% chance at best.

You reaaly like him, yet you call him Frich

Intriguing thought, do you know right now this strikes me as a very very close one.Both balls-out fighters;however I'd go for Carl Froch as he does seem to have learnt a few new tricks to go with the slugging, and I don't think that Collins was a particularly adaptable fighter.

Andy get on the top 15 ATG thread and post your list

Right-ho sir. Instantly regretted my last top ten "Heavies" list, but goddamn,it's an itch and it's gotta be scratched

Back to the original post, Froch for me.

Bigger, better reach, better boxer, more versatile.

I never rated Collins as highly as others seem to.

Watching Tyson Fury reminds me of Collins for some reason. I think it is the dog inside both of them. Both are very durable but not much in terms of boxing skill. What made Collins the fighter he was is the fact that he was a strong man and he fought like a dog. He pushed other fighters around the ring throwing his punches continuously. That is very hard to fight against as many found with Collins.

Fury seems to be a big guy that is going to be hard to KO. He is not afraid to fight , in fact he loves it, and even though he is not fit he keeps coming forward bringing it until the fight is over. I think Fury is a nightmare fight for any heavyweight with the exception of the Klitschko's.


Collins is horrible to watch but he would be all over Froch pushing him and backing him up. Collins would be the physically stronger man. As we know Froch won't be knocking Collins out so I think the fight comes down to work-rate, heart, strength and the dogged will to win which Collins had in spades.

Collin's was just very hard to beat and Fury's stating to look the same.

I'm a big fan of Froch and i'm going to have to argue with this Herman guy....

Have we the new, Froch fanboy, version of D4?