O'Driscoll declares himself fit to play against France

First topic message reminder :

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2011/0808/ireland_odriscollb.html

Full link above. Basically BOD is saying that he rarely goes into matches fully fit these days and is up for playing whenever he's needed.

Rodders

Dont get me wrong im not happy with our last year or so of rugby. It hasnt been great and in attack we have looked underwhelming mostly i agree. Thats probably why Gaffney hasnt had his contract renewed. In fairness to Kidney (and the coaching team) they have been trying to change their style of play and we can take heart from the last 6N game (in a tournament which was massively disrupted by injury). We have had one game since then which we cant read too much into so i dont think we can judge Kidney till after the RWC.

I would rather we explored certain options as well but this regime is a marked improvement on the last. I actually think this is down to Kidneys planning. I think this is a great strength of his. He seems to work closer with provincial coaches in order to implement his plans. You and me may not agree with what he does but i get the impression the guy is always thinking and planning ahead

red_stag wrote:I suspect you are on the wind up Rodders. If you are well done. If you aren't then I am just astounded and I despair for the type of fans we have.

Totally agree. Madness.

Stand if you are right and I am wrong then I will be very happy.

I'll reserve judgement on Kidney until after the WC to see how we go and then what he does post WC to set the ball rolling for the future.

I can only comment on what I've seen so far and from the outside looking in I have not been impressed with a lot of what I've seen post 2009.

The players obviously like him so he's oviously a good man-manager but too often his selection and use of the bench are baffling to say the least.
Maybe the problem isn't Kidney but the other coaches or the IRFU.

roddersm wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:

If we go well at this WC it will be in spite of Kidney and not because of him.

What other way can we interpret these words?

That I don't trust kidney to get the selection and tactics right for a given game and our players our going to have to front up and pull it out of the bag regardless of what Kidney does.

If we reach the SF or better then I'll attribute the reasons after the event not now. If it's down to Kidneys descisions then I'll give credit where it's due.

Incidently not many give Brian Ashton much credit for England reaching the final last time. A team can still do well in spite of their coach.

How are you going to know if it was Kidney or the players?

Players can perform despite their manager but only for so long. If Kidney wasn't a good coach he would have been caught out by now.

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:I suspect you are on the wind up Rodders. If you are well done. If you aren't then I am just astounded and I despair for the type of fans we have.

Totally agree. Madness.

Fair enough. It would be helpful if you were to point out what you don't agree with and why but hey ho everyone is entitled to their view.

I would agree with you on the bench thing Rodders. He came in for some stick for that during the 6N but to me that is a lesser issue that i think he actually tried to redress during that competition.

He earned the right to get the RWC by 2009. What happens after the RWC is anyones guess but i agree i would like to see us proactive in bringing through the young guys

Thomond wrote:Players can perform despite their manager but only for so long. If Kidney wasn't a good coach he would have been caught out by now.

You don't think a 50% win rate in 2010 and going from 1st to 3rd in the 6N is being caught out?

Rodders,your argument is that he is an awful coach. If he was an awful coach would he have won senior cups,Heineken Cups,Six Nations,a Celtic Cup and IRB u-19 World Championship and a Celtic league?

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:I suspect you are on the wind up Rodders. If you are well done. If you aren't then I am just astounded and I despair for the type of fans we have.

Totally agree. Madness.

Fair enough. It would be helpful if you were to point out what you don't agree with and why but hey ho everyone is entitled to their view.

Because saying that if Ireland succeed the coach will deserve no credit is madness. How can he win in your eyes?

I myself am reserving judgement on him and Gert Smal until after the World Cup. I am very pleased with the job Les Kiss is doing, but annoyed with Gaffney and glad his contract isn't being renewed.

Standulstermen wrote:I would agree with you on the bench thing Rodders. He came in for some stick for that during the 6N but to me that is a lesser issue that i think he actually tried to redress during that competition.

He earned the right to get the RWC by 2009. What happens after the RWC is anyones guess but i agree i would like to see us proactive in bringing through the young guys

Stand I agree he has earned the right to take us into the WC (not sure about the extension though).

However I am not convinced he did readdress things in the 6N so much as got a bit lucky with Earls at full back against England. I mean if he knew Earls was a better fullback than Fitzgerald why did he not do it sooner?

I still see the same old predetermined substitutions and very little evidence that Kidney can react to what is going on the pitch and make the needed subsitutions or tactical changes.

Wallace and ROG on the bench is plain stupid and the failure to act when our lineout was mangled against Italy was total incompetency in my view. Likewise his failure to get us to change tactics against France, SA and Wales was very poor.

Contrast to Leinsters turn around against the Saints in the HEC final through the introduction of Jennings and the change in scrummaging tactics.

I just have seen very little indicate that he understands what goes on on the pitch once a match kicks off and that is very worrying.

Thomond wrote:Rodders,your argument is that he is an awful coach. If he was an awful coach would he have won senior cups,Heineken Cups,Six Nations,a Celtic Cup and IRB u-19 World Championship and a Celtic league?

If PDV or Marc Leivremont win the WC does that make them good coaches?

Thomond his record indicates that he is an exceptional coach but Irelands performances over the past 18 months suggests he isn't.

A coach is only as successful as his players so Kidneys record, whilst being impressive doesn't really prove much.

Kidney won Ireland a Grand Slam (with EOS's team) but he came 2nd the next year and 3rd the year after. That's going backwards. He's made bad selections and his use of the bench has been baffling. We very nearly lost to Italy for the first time in the 6 Nations. We lost at home to Scotland the year before. We lost to France this year despite the French putting in the worst performance against us I can remember. They crushed us in Paris the year before. Our performances against South Africa last November and Wales this year were really really dire. We've never even gotten close to New Zealand (EOS did). Our last summer tour was a total disaster. We lost every game.

This has all happened in the last two seasons, put people seem to just overlook it and point to one match against England as proof that Ireland are great and Kidney's doing a good job. Our performances and results have been mostly bad for two years now. I'll judge him on our World Cup. But I'm not convinced that Kidney is doing a good job. I hope I'm wrong.

roddersm wrote:

Thomond wrote:Rodders,your argument is that he is an awful coach. If he was an awful coach would he have won senior cups,Heineken Cups,Six Nations,a Celtic Cup and IRB u-19 World Championship and a Celtic league?

If PDV or Marc Leivremont win the WC does that make them good coaches?

Thomond his record indicates that he is an exceptional coach but Irelands performances over the past 18 months suggests he isn't.

A coach is only as successful as his players so Kidneys record, whilst being impressive doesn't really prove much.

It would make them successful coaches which is their job right?

I dont think he did know that Rodders. The important thing he can say is that he gave Fitz a fair crack of the whip at 15 and it didnt work. Thus he changed it. I think the key was that he gave Fitz a decent run at 15, (when the only other option was Earls or a returning Gavin Duffy or Tommy Bowe). Earls hadnt shown much form pre 6N either so i dont see that selection as a bad one.

I wouldnt disagree about the inclusion of Paddy at 22 and i was frustrated at the time. One thing they did work on throughout that tournament was the discipline which improved. Im certainly not arguing he is awesome at all aspects but he has the job and as we agree deserves the chance. He will be castigated if the RWC is another disaster anyway.

MBTGOG wrote:
It would make them successful coaches which is their job right?

No it mean they won a trophy which is part of their job. However if a team goes backwards or stagnates under a coaches reign and they don't develop players for the future then they are not successful.

For instance Clive Woodward failed to put the infrastructures and players in place to sustain Englands domination after the WC. Likewise Kidney left Munster in a bit of a pickle.

Luck can win you trophies but developing a team which is successful in the long term is the mark of a good coach.

roddersm wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:
It would make them successful coaches which is their job right?

No it mean they won a trophy which is part of their job. However if a team goes backwards or stagnates under a coaches reign and they don't develop players for the future then they are not successful.

For instance Clive Woodward failed to put the infrastructures and players in place to sustain Englands domination after the WC. Likewise Kidney left Munster in a bit of a pickle.

Luck can win you trophies but developing a team which is successful in the long term is the mark of a good coach.

So which should a coach do? Get the team ready for the future after they leave or win the trophy they are paid to do. It's a pro sport an that is what their primary aim must be.

Oh and if we win the World Cup, Kidney would never be seen as anything but a good coach.

roddersm wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:
It would make them successful coaches which is their job right?

No it mean they won a trophy which is part of their job. However if a team goes backwards or stagnates under a coaches reign and they don't develop players for the future then they are not successful.

For instance Clive Woodward failed to put the infrastructures and players in place to sustain Englands domination after the WC. Likewise Kidney left Munster in a bit of a pickle.

Luck can win you trophies but developing a team which is successful in the long term is the mark of a good coach.

If your team goes backwards under a coach then how can you win trophies? You can get lucky with the draw but at then edn of the day you still have to perform.

Feckless

I dont disagree with much of what you say but when you consider that Summer tour and the players that went we were never likely to get a result. Chris Henry and Niall Ronan started against Aus for instance (i think). Against the All Blacks we were down to 14 men in the first quarter and 13 at another point. Discipline was a massive issue at that time. The evidence was that towards the end of the 6N and in the last game it had improved slightly.

As i have said our record isnt great (compared to 2009) over the past year but i think we have all noticed that we are trying to acheive a different style (not always successfully). The Boks havent looked to change their style at all and it looks like they may be found out in the 3N/RWC. It is a strange period in Irish rugby and we will see the merits of this transition to a more attacking style in the RWC (or not). Im certainly not lauding Kidney as the messiah of Irish Rugby but we need to cool our jets and see how everything works out in the coming year or so.

MBTGOG wrote:Oh and if we win the World Cup, Kidney would never be seen as anything but a good coach.

What you mean Munsty is if Ireland win the WC you won't see Kidney as anything other than a good coach.

If we win the WC but spend the next 4 seasons at the bottom half of the 6N table because we've no fly halves, 2nd Rows or centres then I'll see him as a coach who couldn't do his job but got lucky a couple of times because he had great players.

roddersm wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:Oh and if we win the World Cup, Kidney would never be seen as anything but a good coach.

What you mean Munsty is if Ireland win the WC you won't see Kidney as anything other than a good coach.

If we win the WC but spend the next 4 seasons at the bottom half of the 6N table because we've no fly halves, 2nd Rows or centres then I'll see him as a coach who couldn't do his job but got lucky a couple of times because he had great players.

Is Sexton retiring after the World Cup?

I would be incredibly amazed if luck won us the World Cup.

Real men make thier own luck.

Oh and it always was the case that his job was to build towards this World Cup.

Afterwards, he'll start doing it for the next one, but this September has always been his main aim. That is what he must focus on. Not afterwards.

rodders, his job is to build for this World Cup. Not building into after the World Cup.

You're looking at things way too longterm. You're criticising him for concentrating on winning games and trying to prepare us for this tournament. It doesn't make sense.

Notch my criticism is of him now.

If we get another injury in the centre then we have no other tested options.
An injury to fly-half and centre and we are down to our bare bones.

Humpreys and Keatley should have a dozen caps between them by now. Wallace, Earls and Bowe should all be tried and tested in midfield and even Downey should have been tried alongside BOD.

There should be no position were we don't have at least 3 players who can do a job at international level and Kidney has repeadly failed to give fringe players meaningful game time in certain key positions.

Humphreys isn't good enough,Keatley might be but not yet.

roddersm wrote:Notch my criticism is of him now.

If we get another injury in the centre then we have no other tested options.
An injury to fly-half and centre and we are down to our bare bones.

Humpreys and Keatley should have a dozen caps between them by now. Wallace, Earls and Bowe should all be tried and tested in midfield and even Downey should have been tried alongside BOD.

There should be no position were we don't have at least 3 players who can do a job at international level and Kidney has repeadly failed to give fringe players meaningful game time in certain key positions.

I'm sorry but that is just not possible at this level and with the numbers we have playing.

roddersm wrote:Humpreys and Keatley should have a dozen caps between them by now. Wallace, Earls and Bowe should all be tried and tested in midfield and even Downey should have been tried alongside BOD.

No, I disagree with all of that. Humphreys, Keatley and Downey are all not that great. He's had a look at them as players mind you. He's worked with them all since he became coach be it with Ireland or Ireland A. He's considered them, he's worked with them, he's watched them play and he's made a decision they aren't up to it. How can you blame him for that? That's the kind of judgement call he's paid to make. They've been given chances to impress.

Wallace IS tried and tested. He's selected Wallace versus four of the five of the nations above us in the world rankings and he got gametime versus the All Blacks just before he came into the job. The only area of concern is his over-dependence on BOD but it's not THAT unusual to play your Captain and possibly best player as much as possible. You seem to be suggesting some kind of Lievremont-esque selection policy.

The most difficult thing about international coaching is walking the very fine line between putting our your best XV every week and blooding new players. More than anything else, I think thats what Declan Kidney has done particularly well for Ireland. I think that's been the best aspect of his tenure so far.

Look guys we aren't going to get common ground here.

There only thing we can agree on is we want Ireland to go well in the WC and beyond.

Lets revisit this debate after the WC eh? I'll be quite happy if it's me who is proved to be in the wrong about Kidney.

But if you aren't proved wrong it won't be the absence of Humphreys or Downey that would have changed it anyway!

Notch wrote:But if you aren't proved wrong it won't be the absence of Humphreys or Downey that would have changed it anyway!

I hope you were touching wood when you wrote that Notch....

No I'm pretty comfortable he's going to be taking the right players. If they don't perform I might be annoyed at what the coaches have done with those players.

We place far too much emphasis on selection because it's the part of the coaching process we can see. But 15 great players with no gameplan can be beaten by 15 hard-working players with a good gameplan.