Irish World Cup 30

First topic message reminder :

Declan Kidney announced the Ireland Rugby Squad for the Rugby World Cup in New Zealand today.


The squad will be captained by Brian O'Driscoll.

Forwards (16) Caps in Brackets

Props (4)
Tony Buckley (Sale Sharks)(23)
Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)(20)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)(20)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)(9)

Hookers (3)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)(49)
Sean Cronin (not assigned club yet/Leinster)(13)
Jerry Flannery (Shannon/Munster)(39)

Second Rows (4)

Leo Cullen (Blackrock College/Leinster)(31)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)(74)
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)(77)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)(9)

Backrows (5)

Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)(25)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)(37)
Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)(52)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)(11)
David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster)(72)

Backs (14)

Scrumhalves (3)

Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)(14)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)(1)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)(31)

Outhalves (2)

Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)(110)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)(18)

Centres (3)

Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)(58)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) captain(113)
Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster)(28)

Outside Backs (6)

Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)(39)
Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster)(20)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)(29)
Geordan Murphy (Leicester Tigers)(69)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)(4)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)(35)

Provincial Breakdown; Leinster 13, Munster 9, Ulster 5, Overseas 3

And the county breakdown. There are 12 counties and 2 overseas countries represented in the squad. For players born oversea but who grew up in Ireland, I put them down in the county they grew up and regard themselves as being from.

Limerick (7); Cronin, Flannery, Poc, D. Wallace, Reddan, Murray, Earls
Cork (4); Buckley, Ross, Doc, Rog
Dublin (3); Bod, Healy, Sexton
Kildare (3); Heaslip, G. Murphy, McFadden
Tipperary (2); Leamy, Ryan
Antrim (1); Ferris
Down (1); P.Wallace
Carlow (1); O'Brien
Armagh (1); Best
Wicklow (1); Cullen
Wexford (1); D'arcy
Louth (1); Kearney
Monaghan (1); Bowe
Derry/Londonderry/Whatever you want yourself (1); Trimble
Brisbane (1); Court
Tokoroa (1); Boss

That breaks down as;
Munster 13
Leinster 10
Ulster 5
Abroad/Poaches 2

Notch wrote:It's actually quite funny, as you seem entirely lacking in self-awareness. Everything is how you want to see it. Needless to say, such debates are NOT banned nor is anything else (within reason) but the day we see you harking back to a Leinster vs Munster game or anything else to support the case of a non-Munster player is when people might believe you're supporting Ireland without bring any kind of provincial perspective to the table.

The point people are making is this; the World Cup is coming up. Munster, Leinster, Ulster or Connacht aren't playing in the RWC but Ireland are. So while it's reasonable to talk about some form before the summer, it's becoming less and less relevant. Not irrelevant; but less relevant. Now is the time for us to get together and assess players without our provincial goggles on based on the context of what they provide to the team. It's not about tenuous point-scoring from games that happened months ago. When someone comes with an opinion that a player from another province is better than a Munster player in the context of the Ireland team, you jump on their back and start a long, dull argument that dominates the discussion. It becomes very hard to talk rugby.

Right now, I consider O'Gara to be ahead of Sexton in the pecking order based on what I've seen of the two players in the warm-ups although I believe Sexton may well be worth persevering with. Stag, an ardent Munster fan, disagrees and sees Sexton as our first choice. Pete, a Leinster fan agrees with Stag for much the same reasons regarding his running game. I personally feel O'Gara is playing a lot closer to the gainline and is distributing well.

I know this will probably fall on deaf ears, but please consider that not everyone who wants certain players to start does it because of their provincial allegiance. Some of us want to talk rugby as one Irish fan to another without having to navigate round long arguments where the main objective is to argue that players from one province are better than another.

Well said Notch and I apologise if I contributed to provincial messiness.
Sin I didn't start that you mentioned the last 2 games between Munster and Leinster (2 in thomond that Munster won, and won well) I just went back a bit further.

Either way I apologise for my part.
I agree whole heartadly that we need to get behind Ireland and not any of the provinces.

Sin while we don't see eye to eye at times with regards to opinions, you do seem to fight the corner of every single Munster man involved and I don't think that is fair. Many of us would want a player from another province playing instead of a player from our province, for example I would much rather Wallace play instead of Darcy. I'd much rather O'Connell play rather than Cullen. I had wanted jones to play instead of Kearney til I saw how well he came back. Thomond would play Sexton over ROG.

Please believe me when I say I am not having a go at you but I feel it is something you need to think about.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:for example I would much rather Wallace play instead of Darcy.

Ah here! At tiddlywinks in the hotel room before the game is it?

Good points guys.

I am 50/50 Flannery/Best
I think Ferris should start and it is between SOB and Wallace for 7
I would start with Reddan
I am 50/50 ROG/Sexton
D'Arcy at his best should start. Given the way he is playing at the moment Wallace should start
My back three is Bowe, Trimble and Kearney

None of that is provincial bias just my honest opinion.

Won well?! We beat Leinster by a point the first time. Our defence was great that day though!

Yeah I'd rather Wallace at 12 than darcy. i don't think Darcy offers much anymore and can kill attacking chances by taking contact instead of passing

Sean OBrien should play in the centre. He is actually injured though and may miss the USA game so Ferris should start.

I have a feeling a back is going to get injured v England and get ruled out. Fitz may travel yet. Also I'd be tempted to rest Drico v England as he is having trouble with his shoulder.

Sin é wrote:

mrsuperclear wrote:Sin é, you're an original poster with a completely different way of arguing than everyone else and, to be fair, you back up what your saying with a load of stats which is always interesting to me (even though your views are insane to me sometimes). However, I've never seen you come to the defence of a player outside Munster. When have you ever debated with someone favouring a Leinsterman or an Ulsterman with stats? It has just never happened. I don't blame you really, you support Munster, why would you have stats of Leinstermen? You're supporting Ireland now though Sin so it's time to pack away the Munster stat propaganda megaphone of yours and get the green one out!

I'll defend any player that I know the facts to be wrong. A few weeks ago I defended Gordon D'Arcy - someone was having a go at him for putting off his operation until after his holidays. I found the newspaper quote from the ireland management which claimed that the medics had put the op off, not D'Arcy.

And I think you will find in somewhere on this site a team picked by me that had so many Leinster players on it, that one Leinster supporter felt compelled to post that they were surprised at my team pick. This was prior to the warm-up games and I had Sexton as the starting OH against Australia (and I gave my reasons for having him there ahead of O'Gara).

I am going to come in on sins defence here i asked him for his ireland team and it was a well balanced team alright.
I think that he will defend any munster player at the drop of a hat in any arguement and try his best to win the arguement(when in my mind he knows he is wrong sometimes) but when it comes down to it wants to see the best ireland team out on the pitch.

Sometimes it can be a bit boring on here the week before a game and i find myself sometimes arguing points that i find myself disagreeing with on the day of a match.
i think that people will argue provincially up to the day and then its all in for ireland. It just natural people pick tribes

In fairness to Si,he has actaully defended D'Arcy on a few occasions and backed Sexton to start before the Summer. I'm not surprised he is backing ROG. He is actually distributing better than Sexton at the moment.

Sexton needs to start to bring his a game and play a little smarter too or even I will start to favour ROG too.

I'm backing ROG at this stage aswell and i would be one of sextons loudest supporters, but ROG is delivering

I think Sexton is in a bit of a lull at the moment too but would love to see him start a game with a different 9 (this is going to happen now that TOL is not in the squad) I think when he is more confident about the service being delivered to him he will attack the gain line more and we will see more lines of running rather than lateral passing across the pitch.

When you look at what he is capable of with reddan inside him, it is simply awesome (game vs England, Northampton, Saracens, Clermont at home)

Sexton's standing too deep is partially the problem,ROG is on the front foot attacking the gainline. I will be slated for this again but TOL's delivery was actually decent enough for large parts of the game on Saturday. For selfish reasons I probably would have taken him so Murray could develop at Munster but I'm quite happy Deccie made the right call.

Sexton is a class player but needs to mix things up a little when playing for Ireland.

Thomond you were watching a different game TOLs passing wasn't AIL standard.

Without getting into this again,TOL works fairly well with clean ball,he got that in the first 10 minutes,he didn't for the rest of the match. His passing suffered when he went under pressure.


Sexton has all the tools to be better than ROG but as of now I would rate ROG the better player.

I still felt TOl was slow even in the first 20 mins on Sat, not necessarily his pass but his decision making. Was good to see Sexton begin to stand flatter when reddan came on.

Morning folks. For later: https://www.606v2.com/t12411-ireland-team-vs-england-27th-aug-2011

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Notch wrote:It's actually quite funny, as you seem entirely lacking in self-awareness. Everything is how you want to see it. Needless to say, such debates are NOT banned nor is anything else (within reason) but the day we see you harking back to a Leinster vs Munster game or anything else to support the case of a non-Munster player is when people might believe you're supporting Ireland without bring any kind of provincial perspective to the table.

The point people are making is this; the World Cup is coming up. Munster, Leinster, Ulster or Connacht aren't playing in the RWC but Ireland are. So while it's reasonable to talk about some form before the summer, it's becoming less and less relevant. Not irrelevant; but less relevant. Now is the time for us to get together and assess players without our provincial goggles on based on the context of what they provide to the team. It's not about tenuous point-scoring from games that happened months ago. When someone comes with an opinion that a player from another province is better than a Munster player in the context of the Ireland team, you jump on their back and start a long, dull argument that dominates the discussion. It becomes very hard to talk rugby.

Right now, I consider O'Gara to be ahead of Sexton in the pecking order based on what I've seen of the two players in the warm-ups although I believe Sexton may well be worth persevering with. Stag, an ardent Munster fan, disagrees and sees Sexton as our first choice. Pete, a Leinster fan agrees with Stag for much the same reasons regarding his running game. I personally feel O'Gara is playing a lot closer to the gainline and is distributing well.

I know this will probably fall on deaf ears, but please consider that not everyone who wants certain players to start does it because of their provincial allegiance. Some of us want to talk rugby as one Irish fan to another without having to navigate round long arguments where the main objective is to argue that players from one province are better than another.

Well said Notch and I apologise if I contributed to provincial messiness.
Sin I didn't start that you mentioned the last 2 games between Munster and Leinster (2 in thomond that Munster won, and won well) I just went back a bit further.

Either way I apologise for my part.
I agree whole heartadly that we need to get behind Ireland and not any of the provinces.

Sin while we don't see eye to eye at times with regards to opinions, you do seem to fight the corner of every single Munster man involved and I don't think that is fair. Many of us would want a player from another province playing instead of a player from our province, for example I would much rather Wallace play instead of Darcy. I'd much rather O'Connell play rather than Cullen. I had wanted jones to play instead of Kearney til I saw how well he came back. Thomond would play Sexton over ROG.

Please believe me when I say I am not having a go at you but I feel it is something you need to think about.

Well thats fine. I've thought about it. I suggest you think about how:

you claimed in an article that Denis Leamy has a disclipinary problem, and when challenged on it and asked for the stats, looked for more and then when I supplied those, still refused to acknowlege that his discipline was not really an issue and it was way better than both Jamie Heaslip & Sean O'Brien's.

And I wasn't even claiming that Denis Leamy should start before Sean O'Brien or Jamie Heaslip!

Same with Ronan O'Gara - a lot of you claim that Sexton gets the backline moving better than O'Gara. Only evidence I have to go on are games that they play against the same standard of opposition and head-to-head. As a matter of interest for the Leinster v Leicester game, did you not one think back to half-backs recent previous meeting in the Aviva?

Since most of you are over the age of 12, I'd expect you to be able to deal with it a bit better. Otherwise the way this forum is heading is that Leinster supporters won't be allowed say a good word about a Leinster player and Notch won't be allowed defend Paddy Wallace ever again.

With regard to Sexton, I did post that he should start against Australia ahead of O'Gara. I've posted that Ferris & O'Brien is ahead of Leamy. I've posted that Jamie Heaslip is ahead of Leamy. How come none of you see those posts? Or is it some of you can't deal with the content and divert attention away from the subject matter.

By the way, the form D'Arcy has had in recent times makes him indefensible. I wasn't defending Tomas O'leary's form (think I posted that his form was poor, but there was no need for the abuse he was getting from some quarters).

I still think Leamy is very indisciplined and while you support your arguement with stats you only gave them for a certain number of games, maybe he was better disciplined there. Also, it doesn't say what the penalties were for, or what area of the pitch they were in. These last two factors can change a penalty being conceeded into a stupid penalty conceeded. Like heaslip on McCaw for example, that was an idiotic penalty to give away due to being on their line and we would probably have won a penalty ourselves if McCaw had continued.

I guess you have your opinion based ons tats during a certain time and I have mine from watching them and seeing the penalties they give away, Leamy saying yes I would like to be marched 10m back for instance is just stupid.

Don't know why you feel that two players can only be judged against eachother when they are playing against eachother or against the same quality of opposition that's just silly.
If Sexton played really badly against Connacht and ROG played brilliantly against the Ospreys one would say well done ROG catching/moving ahead of Sexton.

Apologies if you felt I was abusing O'Leary (I don't think I was at all maybe you are referring to others I don't know) I just think he is an awful scrumhalf. IMO defensive qualities don't make up for his poor decision making, poor passing, how long it takes him to get the ball free and box kicking. Also his defense has been poor during the Summer series being brushed aside by Beattie and Lamont, unbalanced and left for dead by Palisson and I think Bonnaire ran over him from the back of a ruck in the 1st half of the French game too.

Either way that's my opinion. Sorry if you feel like it is an attack.

The criticism of OLeary is fully deserved. He has been very poor for a long time now.

Agree re TOL - he has been nowhere near International standard for a couple of years now.

No idea of the respective disciplinary records of SOB, Leamy and Heaslip but I just remember a HC SF a few years back when Leamy gave away the dumbest penalty imaginable. Nearly blew Munsters appearance in the final. Luckily it didn't but it was incredibly stupid

Maybe that is it then??? Maybe Leamy doesn't give away too many penalties but the ones he does are more noticable because they are quite idiotic????

Don't think front rows can be compared cos of scrum lottery penalty decisions.

Agree re: TOL, as soon as the rules changed to favour the attacking team he was never gonna be that great

Its just annoying that when you asked for stats and the number of penalties given away by Leamy, SOB & Heislip and when I supplied them for their last 10 Heineken Cup games and SOB & Heislip's were way worse.

Just to be clear - that was not a random selection of Leamy's good games. It was his last 10 Heineken Cup games. I used Heinken Cup Stats because they are available.

As to their seriousness - Leamy has earned 4 yellow cards to date in his Munster career. Heislip has earned double that and Sean O'Brien has got 3 YC so far and he is only 23.

The other point that you dismissed as well was that Leamy was ranked No. 7 forward in Europe this year (the same ranking system that had Sean O'Brien No. 1). Leamy is the only other Irish forward to make the Top 10.

Leamy was penalised and yes it was stupid to backchat the ref and lose the 10 metres - still it made no odds and he has never done anything like that in a match of importance.

I'm not only judging Sexton/O'Gara head-to-head. I brought it up when you claimed that Tomas O'Leary was the reason that Sexton wasn't getting the Ireland backs moving. I made the point about the two games recently between the two (which are games I know we all watched) that Sexton failed to get his backs moving (Leinster have scored 1 try in the last two encounters) when neither OH have Tomas O'leary as SH, so the Tomas O'leary excuse is redundant for Sexton.

I wasn't referring to you abusing O'Leary. I don't have a problem with posters criticising any player's performance, I do have a problem with people abusing the player though.

by the way pete, it seems that Liam Toland has copied my way of using stats for his recent article in the Times.

He also blames Sexton for Heymans try!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0822/1224302805389.html

Toland is Irelands best rugby journalist but Leamy still ain't great whatever way you look at it.

Leamy being ranked 7 in Europe is ridiculous considering he didn't even play as many matches as most others as Musnter didnt even make the 1/4 finals surely others forwards tackles and yards must have been better.
Healy should be ahead of Leamy IMO.


I think it was all BOD's fault. Felix Jones had come into the line and thus we had the numbers all BOD had to do was stop drifting and tackle Rougerie. That's just simple as IMO.

Most forwards give away stupid penalties at some stage in their careers.

IMO up there with the stupider ones was when Jennings was playing for Leicester at Welford Road against Munster in an HEC pool game. Tigers were leading with about a minute on the clock and he conceded a penalty on the Munster 10m line, but then argued about it with the ref. who promptly marched up to the halfway line. ROG slotted it and won the game.

Yet Jennings is usually seen as being a "clever" player!

BOD was to blame for that try pure and simple.

The problem I have with Leamy is he just seems to give away too many dumb penalties that are easily avoidable.

Stats do not tell the full story - context is everything.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Leamy being ranked 7 in Europe is ridiculous considering he didn't even play as many matches as most others as Musnter didnt even make the 1/4 finals surely others forwards tackles and yards must have been better.
Healy should be ahead of Leamy IMO.


I think it was all BOD's fault. Felix Jones had come into the line and thus we had the numbers all BOD had to do was stop drifting and tackle Rougerie. That's just simple as IMO.

Leamy was ranked No. 7 in the Forwards. They have 2 sections - Forwards & Backs. (I think Sexton was ranked the No. 1 Back).
The ranking is based on no. tackles made, turnovers made, yards run, off loads etc. Points would have been deducted for giving away penalties etc. These are the official stats from the ERC website (and probably still up there - why don't you look them up before deciding that they are wrong).

Munster didn't make the QFs because of a poor scrum, which makes it even more remarkable that he made the top 10. Seem to remember he was the top offloader in the comp. Bet you never noticed that side of his game!

You stick with your opinion - don't let anyone who knows something about rugby change your mind.

geoff998rugby wrote:BOD was to blame for that try pure and simple.

The problem I have with Leamy is he just seems to give away too many dumb penalties that are easily avoidable.

Stats do not tell the full story - context is everything.

The ERC stats do tell a full story - you lose points for giving away penalties which will affect your points total - and giving away a penalty in your own 22 which leads to a score for the other team will result in a higher points deduction.

I would have said its was BOD's fault, but I think Toland is a top class analyst with no axes to grind.

Sin é wrote:You stick with your opinion - don't let anyone who knows something about rugby change your mind.

That's completely unnecessary. And ironic. Stats are great; but if you only know Stats then you won't see the full reality of the game.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:You stick with your opinion - don't let anyone who knows something about rugby change your mind.

That's completely unnecessary. And ironic. Stats are great; but if you only know Stats then you won't see the full reality of the game.

I was referring to Toland, not myself.

I'd like to hope so.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Leamy being ranked 7 in Europe is ridiculous considering he didn't even play as many matches as most others as Musnter didnt even make the 1/4 finals surely others forwards tackles and yards must have been better.
Healy should be ahead of Leamy IMO.


I think it was all BOD's fault. Felix Jones had come into the line and thus we had the numbers all BOD had to do was stop drifting and tackle Rougerie. That's just simple as IMO.

Leamy was ranked No. 7 in the Forwards. They have 2 sections - Forwards & Backs. (I think Sexton was ranked the No. 1 Back).
The ranking is based on no. tackles made, turnovers made, yards run, off loads etc. Points would have been deducted for giving away penalties etc. These are the official stats from the ERC website (and probably still up there - why don't you look them up before deciding that they are wrong).

Munster didn't make the QFs because of a poor scrum, which makes it even more remarkable that he made the top 10. Seem to remember he was the top offloader in the comp. Bet you never noticed that side of his game!

You stick with your opinion - don't let anyone who knows something about rugby change your mind.

Ok the ERC deemed him the 7th best forward in the compitition. If all the coaches got to pick forwards for their team somehow I don't think Leamy would be picked 7th, do you?

Stats don't tell the full story Sin and all of your debates and points seem to revolve around things you have seen in stats.

"Stats are great; but if you only know Stats then you won't see the full reality of the game."
THIS IS KEY!

Not saying he isn't a top class analyst or that he has an axe to grind I just think he is wrong. that was BOD's tackle to make and he drifted when he shouldn't have.

Sin that's very simple defensive procedure. Don't understand why the analyst or you would blame Sexton. If anything TOL plays a sweepers role in defense he should have been there cos Sexton actually marked someone where as TOL just slides in behind the defensive line. That is how he makes all those try saving tackles.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think it was all BOD's fault. Felix Jones had come into the line and thus we had the numbers all BOD had to do was stop drifting and tackle Rougerie. That's just simple as IMO.

Pete is right Sin. O'Driscoll drifted too wide. Sexton didn't quit D'Arcys inside as Tolad says; Heymans was just too quick. Sexton was doing his job in the defensive line, but he was caught ball-watching. Pretty much all of the Irish backs were caught ball-watching and no-one picked up Heymans line until it was too late, so in that sense Sexton was to blame as were several other players, but miscommunication in the centres and BOD coming out of the line created the original gap for Rougerie to attack. I understand what Toland is saying even though I partially disagree because Heymans comes down Sextons channel but it's just a superb line of running and a flaw in the defensive system. Trimbke is picking up Heymans and Sexton is meant to pick him up once he makes the switch. Once the initial linebreak by Rougerie is made, though, it's incredibly hard to defend and that came through miscommunication between the two centres

So in fact Sin, having watched and rewatched the incident I have to agree with Pete. And let's say; it was a great try, even if we defended it porly.

Notch wrote:I'd like to hope so.

Well, I'd like to hope that you could get to think first before jumping to the wrong conclusion.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I'd like to hope so.

Well, I'd like to hope that you could get to think first before jumping to the wrong conclusion.

Again, thats unnecessary. There's no need to insult people.

I don't know how Sexton can be blamed because he was covering Trinh Duc and couldn't be expected to drift across that far unlike TOL who's only job was to drift.

Realistically it was entirelly BOD's fault for the linebreak and that is what made the try. It was simply counting the men, Jones did great work getting into the line I felt.

There is no stat that can explain this system though. BOD didn't even "miss a tackle" he didn't go for a tackle. These little subtleties which are everywhere in the game are why stats can't be relied on 100%

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Ok the ERC deemed him the 7th best forward in the compitition. If all the coaches got to pick forwards for their team somehow I don't think Leamy would be picked 7th, do you?"
THIS IS KEY!

The ERC deemed him to be the 7th best PERFORMING forward. I doubt if the No. 1-7 ranked would all make the same team as they were all playing different positions. For instance, there would not be much point picking Leamy as a lock. And since Sean O'Brien was ranked No. 1, I'd doubt if Joe Schmidt would select Leamy if he had him instead of Leo Cullen.

Not saying he isn't a top class analyst or that he has an axe to grind I just think he is wrong. that was BOD's tackle to make and he drifted when he shouldn't have.

Sin that's very simple defensive procedure. Don't understand why the analyst or you would blame Sexton. If anything TOL plays a sweepers role in defense he should have been there cos Sexton actually marked someone where as TOL just slides in behind the defensive line. That is how he makes all those try saving tackles.

I'm not blaming Sexton - I was surprised that Toland made the comment - if it was anyone else I'd have ignored it, but I really rate Toland as an analyst. I thought it was worthy of discussion.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I'd like to hope so.

Well, I'd like to hope that you could get to think first before jumping to the wrong conclusion.

And the 'I'd like to hope so' isn't an insult".

Wasn't intended as one. I take issue with you using a pejorative tone towards another poster and implying he knows nothing about rugby. It's really ruining the Irish threads on this site for other posters.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:BOD was to blame for that try pure and simple.

The problem I have with Leamy is he just seems to give away too many dumb penalties that are easily avoidable.

Stats do not tell the full story - context is everything.

The ERC stats do tell a full story - you lose points for giving away penalties which will affect your points total - and giving away a penalty in your own 22 which leads to a score for the other team will result in a higher points deduction.

I would have said its was BOD's fault, but I think Toland is a top class analyst with no axes to grind.

Also if you were a coach and there was a draft would you choose Leamy 7th out of all the forwards?! I know I would most definitely not

D24tress wrote:I'm backing ROG at this stage aswell and i would be one of sextons loudest supporters, but ROG is delivering

Bloody hell I nearly fell off me chair when I read that..... ROG every day

Notch wrote:Wasn't intended as one. I take issue with you using a pejorative tone towards another poster and implying he knows nothing about rugby. It's really ruining the Irish threads on this site for other posters.

Well, it came across as one. I explained what I meant. Why did you feel the need to make a comment in any tone in the first place?

Because sooner or later every Irish thread becomes an argument, normally one of little or no importance, featuring you and someone else. It is difficult to enjoy and there is very little craic involved. Most people are rugby fans for the enjoyment and the craic it provides, and thats why most people chat rugby on sites like this. Long pointless, circular debates are pretty unedifying to read or participate in. And when you get incredibly patronising and one-eyed with other posters it makes it worse. It always takes two to tango, but there's a lot you could do about this.

I'm sorry, I'm practically screaming at myself to keep my mouth shut because you've never been swayed anything anyone has said to you on here on any topic, but thats just the way I feel.

Notch wrote:Because sooner or later every Irish thread becomes an argument, normally one of little or no importance, featuring you and someone else. It is difficult to enjoy and there is very little craic involved. Most people are rugby fans for the enjoyment and the craic it provides, and thats why most people chat rugby on sites like this. Long pointless, circular debates are pretty unedifying to read or participate in. And when you get incredibly patronising and one-eyed with other posters it makes it worse. It always takes two to tango, but there's a lot you could do about this.

I'm sorry, I'm practically screaming at myself to keep my mouth shut because you've never been swayed anything anyone has said to you on here on any topic, but thats just the way I feel.

I'll second that, and again I apologise for my part in it.

Yiz are all bollixes…

Mickado wrote:Yiz are all bollixes…

i can't argue with that like

You can’t Notch. But maybe some of the lads would have stats that back up the contrary??

Everyone needs to chill out, stop taking comments about players like people are talking about your kids.
We need a thunderstorm to clear the air, we got one in the last game of the 6nations, lets hope we get another one and stop nagging at eachother like oulwans in a sewing circle.

Mickado wrote:You can’t Notch. But maybe some of the lads would have stats that back up the contrary??

Everyone needs to chill out, stop taking comments about players like people are talking about your kids.
We need a thunderstorm to clear the air, we got one in the last game of the 6nations, lets hope we get another one and stop nagging at eachother like oulwans in a sewing circle.

Sounds like a plan

COME ON IRELAND!

Mickado wrote:You can’t Notch. But maybe some of the lads would have stats that back up the contrary??

Everyone needs to chill out, stop taking comments about players like people are talking about your kids.
We need a thunderstorm to clear the air, we got one in the last game of the 6nations, lets hope we get another one and stop nagging at eachother like oulwans in a sewing circle.

You're right, cabin fever is setting into this forum. We need some rugby to talk about!

We'll be taking a leaf out of Stereophonics book soon enough!