Ulster vs Glasgow Discussion

First topic message reminder :

Teams have been named for this encounter at Ravenhill tomorrow night. Both sides are significantly depleted with the RWC and a few injuries in the mix as well.

ULSTER

15 Adam D'Arcy
14 Craig Gilroy
13 Darren Cave
12 Nevin Spence
11 Ian Whitten
10 Ian Humphreys
9 Paul Marshall

1 Paddy McAllister
2 Andy Kyriacou
3 Jerry Cronin
4 Lewis Stevenson
5 Dan Tuohy
6 Pedrie Wannenburg
7 Willie Faloon
8 Chris Henry (c)

16 Nigel Brady, 17 Conor Carey, 18 Adam Macklin, 19 Neil McComb, 20 Robbie Diack, 21 Ian Porter, 22 Paddy Jackson, 23 Peter Nelson

GLASGOW

15 Stuart Hogg
14 Tommy Seymour
13 Rob Dewey
12 Troy Nathan
11 Colin Shaw
10 Duncan Weir
9 Colin Gregor

1 Jon Welsh
2 Pat MacArthur
3 Mike Cusack
4 Tom Ryder
5 Rob Harley (c)
6 James Eddie
7 Chris Fusaro
8 Ryan Wilson

16 Finlay Gillies, 17 Ryan Grant, 18 Ed Kalman, 19 Nick Campbell, 20 Rory Pitman, 21 Henry Pyrgos, 22 Peter Horne, 23 Federico Aramburu

Some pretty interesting decisions from McLaughlin on this one! He's certainly building his reputation as a coach who trusts in youth. Conor Carey, Adam Macklin and 18-year old Peter Nelson will all make their competitive debuts should they get off the bench. The Ulster Academy has been working overtime lately. Its a new position for another Ulster Academy graduate; Ian Whitten is on the left wing. He may well have to adapt to survive with the glut of talented centres in Ulster. Fairly unsurprised- McLaughs penchant for big, physical wingers is well known. Probably something to do with the number of times his back moves involve them coming off their wings and running hard lines into midfield. Lock Dan Tuohy returns from a hamstring injury to partner Lewis Stevenson in his Pro12 homecoming game for Ulster. The continuing absence of Declan Fitzpatrick and Tom Court plus the delayed arrival of John Afoa means Munster-born Jerry Cronin gets another chance to try and stake a claim for his adopted province.

For Glasgow the discarded Scot Johnnie Beattie is absent- Ryan Wilson is at Number Eight. There are three players in the side making their competitive debuts; Michael Cusack at tight head, and new signings Troy Nathan and Tommy Seymour in the three-quarters. Seymour will have a point to prove after failing to establish himself in an increasingly competitive Ulster back division over the past few seasons. It'll be bittersweet for me watching him at Ravenhill; I'm delighted to see him advance his career, but disappointed he's not in the home colours as he is a very talented player.

Kick off is at 7.05pm, broadcast on BBC NI and BBC Alba.

That would be ideal but there is a long way to go before that. I would like to see Kidney and his coaches looking at Spence in the shorter term as well. Physically he is there. Needs work on aspects that notch mentioned but they should be looking at getting him working on them swiftly, considering how underpowered our backs look at present

I think we are too bogged down by position in this country. A good player should be able to shift between 12 and 13 easy enough. I think playing 12 will make Spence a better player. To be honest after watching him there I'm not so sure it's not his best position but time will tell. I don't think he's a bosh merchant whereever he plays, he's very strong but is a nice footballer with great feet and hands.

Val I thought Whitten was excellent. I thought he'd be a weak link but he was superb.

roddersm wrote:I think we are too bogged down by position in this country. A good player should be able to shift between 12 and 13 easy enough. I think playing 12 will make Spence a better player. To be honest after watching him there I'm not so sure it's not his best position but time will tell. I don't think he's a bosh merchant whereever he plays, he's very strong but is a nice footballer with great feet and hands.

Val I thought Whitten was excellent. I thought he'd be a weak link but he was superb.

Yeah, well to be honest, I like gaston a lot as a player so I'd prefer him there. I would have thought that whitten 12 and spence on the wing would have been better but like you say they both played well so I shouldn't really be complaining.

Its all subjective rodders but for me a 12 should be able to mix up the play and keep the opposition guessing. Luke Marshall has that skillset. Pass looks good, has the physicality to keep the channel safe, and has that kicking option while he has the step and acceleration to exploit space.

Spence at present is definately a physical and running threat but not a passing or kicking option. It puts slightly more emphasis on the players around you and makes the play slightly easier to read.
For me he will be a 13. He has 3 years on Darren Cave so watching his improvement will be interesting

Standulstermen wrote:Its all subjective rodders but for me a 12 should be able to mix up the play and keep the opposition guessing. Luke Marshall has that skillset. Pass looks good, has the physicality to keep the channel safe, and has that kicking option while he has the step and acceleration to exploit space.

Spence at present is definately a physical and running threat but not a passing or kicking option. It puts slightly more emphasis on the players around you and makes the play slightly easier to read.
For me he will be a 13. He has 3 years on Darren Cave so watching his improvement will be interesting

The thing with spence is that you need a 13 like conrad smith or bod to get the best out of him. Smith does with nonu and bod has done it with roberts, who is a good player but has never played as well at 12 as he did when partnered with bod. I think that cave is definitely good enough to do it at rabo12 level but whether he is good enough in the real big games, I don't know.

Not a dig at either player, I'm not saying that cave isn't good enough for hec, just that he might not be good enough to get the best out of spence at 12.

Spence doesnt have the offoading or the sheer size of Roberts for that matter. The offloading can be worked on the size cant. Nonu has evolved into an all round 12. HE can throw some shocking passes but by and large his distribution is excellent. I dont have a massive issue with Spence playing 12 except i think we have a ludicrously talented guy who is slightly younger and seems to have the perfect skillset for the position

roddersm wrote:I think we are too bogged down by position in this country. A good player should be able to shift between 12 and 13 easy enough. I think playing 12 will make Spence a better player. To be honest after watching him there I'm not so sure it's not his best position but time will tell. I don't think he's a bosh merchant whereever he plays, he's very strong but is a nice footballer with great feet and hands.

Nah, doesn;t matter if he doesn't use them. I think he is equally proficient at both but whatever he needs a creative player at 12/13 and a creative player at 10. We're lucky in that we have a lot of creativity but he still needs to work on the footballing side of his game to be an international class centre.

We really do have a wealth of options at centre and between all 4 I really wouldn't be disappointed to see any of them start. Whitten might have to ply his craft on the wing. Be interesting to here Geoff's thoughts on this.

Assuming Paddy retires from international duty post world cup I think we'd be pretty unlucky if at least one of Cave or Spence was involved in the 6n squads.

It's all fun and games till someone loses an eye.

Which is to say; we're all praising the merits of this Spence/Cave partnership now, but if the day comes when they cost us a game - we have our excuses ready. I think.

Anyhow onwards and (hopefully) upwards. Do we freshen up the side for Aironi or stick with what we know? And should we realistically be thinking 5 points?

Standulstermen wrote:Spence doesnt have the offoading or the sheer size of Roberts for that matter. The offloading can be worked on the size cant. Nonu has evolved into an all round 12. HE can throw some shocking passes but by and large his distribution is excellent. I dont have a massive issue with Spence playing 12 except i think we have a ludicrously talented guy who is slightly younger and seems to have the perfect skillset for the position

I think Spence is potentially a much better player than Roberts and is already a better distributer if not a better player full stop. Spence is already 15 stone plus and over 6 ft so I don't think size is an issue and he is extremely strong for his age. In fact he's the only player who I've seen stop SOB in his tracks so far and rarely fails to break the gainline.

Back to your previous point about needing creativity and a kicking game at 12, I think the most important thing for a 12 in the modern game is the ability to carry strongly,cross the gainline and when necessary offload out of the tackle. Not many teams play footballing 12s anymore and the requirement for a 12 to kick and distribute is not what it was before the law changes due to the deeper defences and breakdown changes. If you have a 12 who can consistantly get you over the gainline then the new laws enable you to generate quick ball and launch attacks. Spence can still improve his kicking and handling but I think he has more of the attributed required for a modern 12 than any other Irish player right now and I've no doubt he and BOD would work well together in midfield.

Cave has been excellent since his return from injury but I think a lot of this is down to the fact that Spence is creating a lot of space for him to utilise.

Rodders

In terms of offloading you must be seeing Spence do things i am not. I certainly dont believe he is a better passer than Roberts and although i have seen him offload it could by no means be described as a feature of his game. A 12 that breaks the gainline is vitally important but at the top level that isnt enough. Nonu is the perfect example. When he was just a bosh merchant the NZ coaches didnt want to know. They stuck him on the wing and then told him to go away and work on other aspects of his game.

He is now the complete 12 and probably the best in the world at his position.
I rewatched the game last night and you cant help but admire Spence's physicality in both attack and defence (Cave too for that matter) but Spence was at his most dangerous when he had that little bit of space in the wider channels. At 12 he is a wrecking ball but at the top level teams plan for that physicality because they know what you are offering. If they dont know whether you will kick pass or run it holds the line for that split second and gives those around the 12 that bit more freedom.

I think we are in danger of getting carried away with the young lad. He is a very good player and could be a great. But he needs work and to be honest if what we see on the pitch is anything to go by his attitude looks spot on. I certainly dont think he is better than Jamie Roberts at the minute but i agree he could be. ... so long as he puts in the work.

Stand I accept what you are saying but I just think you are finding faults in Spences game that aren't there, or certainly not as bad as you are making out.

So far he has been the equal of everything thrown at him at this level and he has consistantly been the standout Ulster back since his emergence last season.

Off course he's nowhere near Nonu's level and he makes mistakes and needs to improve. He's 20 years old so the fact that he doesn't always take the right option or pick the right pass is not in the least bit worrying.

Look at the Saxons game, he skinned Tuilagi and picked the perfect pass to set up Hurley. I've seen experienced internationals including Earls, Trimble, D'arcy, Wallace etc. butcher simple two on ones.

More often than not, for me, he takes the right options and has a maturity that belies his years. I've seen Paddy Wallace and Trimble take the wrong option with the ball in hand far more often than Spence so I think you are being very harsh.

I'm not saying Spence is the best passer around but if he can't pass then I don't know were that leaves Gordon D'arcy or Keith Earls? BOD can only pass in one direction and has thrown some howlers this year, Mike Tindall too. Spences ball skills, whilst needing improvement, compare favourably to many of the midfielders who'll be involved in this WC in my opinion.

I think Spence will be capped this coming season, on merit, if he keeps up his current form and for me his strengths far outway his weaknesses and at 20 that bodes very well for the future.

Rodders

I have already said that for the way ireland are playing at the minute i think Spence is unfortunate not to be there. I dont think i am being harsh. The difference as i have said is between being a very good player and being a great player.

I do think we are building him up a little too much. Darren Cave (3 seasons ago) came on the scene was scoring tries for fun. He was a potential bolter for the 6N squad and wouldnt have been far off it on merit. He then has had a couple of more difficult seasons because teams were knowledgeable about the threat he posed (as well as injury).

I havent said he cant pass or offload. I have said it isnt one of his strengths. I dont think that is being derogatory it is merely stating fact. he does remind me of a young trimble who looked like a world beater in 2006 but then there were deficiencies in his game that he has only really ironed out in the last year or two. Ignoring aspects of spences game that need improving is dangerous and detrimental to his own development.

To me he is and should remain at 13 fighting it out with Cave. I am confident Spence will become a great great player but lets not build him up ahead of time. The things i have said can be worked on. What cant be worked on imo is the fearlessness an desire that cause players to put their body on the line time and again. I think you either have that or you dont. Spence has it in spades and that will stand to him.

Last point, i agree his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses but we are talking about him becoming a great player. Not just a good or very good player. At 21 he still has plenty of time but as we have seen with others up here development in the Irish system can sometimes be less than perfect. For his sake i hope his development is spot on

Rodders - I'm with you on Spence.

He is far from (say a Downey) bosh merchant who relies on size and always trucks the ball into contact. McGlock has given him that role so that is the one you would expect to see most from him, but he still plays with his head up in running his support lines alert to other broken field opportunities. What is so different from him and say Roberts is he has far more acceleration - similar to a young BOD in that regard.

He is a real handful for opposition defences running at the 10/12 channel and certainly worth keeping there to see how he progresses, at least until the returnees arrive from the RWC, by which time he may be hard to drop.

I also think his best chance of breaking into the Ireland team is at 12, as he is very similar to what D'Arcy (and Maggs) used to be. BOD has always thrived when he has had a charger inside him, and Spence could be a route to prolonging his Test career.

I really disagree TGA. Spence's best chance at the Irish jersey is for the 13 shirt. We currently have no decent prospect to replace BOD long term beyond Cave or Spence. The 12 shirt is McFadden's to lose, his inclusion in the WC squad proves that for me. Playing Spence at 12 whilst adding skills to his game would be bad for him long term both internationally and for Ulster. That's all said without even mentioning Marshall.

Aukster

Your last point is an interesting one. I agree that the 12 shirt is more attainable than 13 obviously. But should it be? Should we really be concerned with prolonging BOD's international career or should we be focusing on getting options in the 13 shirt (which we have failed to do in the past 10 years).

BOD is a legend but surely it would benefit ireland to develop young options who will be around in 4 years rather than using a gameplan designed around a guy who will be retired by 2015.

Also i hope to god Spence becomes much more than a kevin Maggs (good player though he was). The D'arcy 2004 vintage would do me quite nicely though1

Excellent point stand. Although a lot of Irish fans want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend BOD will carry on regardless of old age, we do need to start planning for a future without the great man. It's unrealistic to suggest that anyone will step up immediately the day after BOD hangs up his boots. That's why we need to be exploring options now.

Big boots to fill. Won't be easy.

It wont be easy as he runs the entire backline and is a talisman. No matter how good Spence/Marshall/McFadden are they arent going to be another BOD. What we can do is create a partnership that could rival what we have had previously though. With my Ulster hat on i love the thought of Marshall with Spence outside but there is a long way to go before that. I think their two games dovetail quite nicely at present though

rodders, you're getting carried away again. Just give the kid some time.

Notch wrote:rodders, you're getting carried away again. Just give the kid some time.

Notch in my opinion Spence is in the top 3 players in both the 12 and 13 positions in Ireland. For that reason alone he deserves to be in consideration for an Ireland spot in the coming season, IF he continues with his current level of performance. It has nothing to do with prelonging BOD's career or planning for the future and everything to do with the fact that Spence is one of the best centers we currently have available and lets face it we don't have many.

In my opinion the top three centres in Ireland right now are; Brian O'Driscoll, Paddy Wallace and Gordon D'Arcy. And I'm not even a big fan of D'Arcy.

Fergus McFadden and Nevin Spence would be close behind, in that order.

Exactly my point Notch we don't have a lot of options at either 12 or 13 and even though he's only 21(?) Spence is right up there with the best we have.

I'd expect that post WC McFadden and Spence will put both D'arcy and Wallace under serious pressure to partner O'Driscoll as neither have set the world alight recently.

Yes, I expect so too. But you're really jumping the gun in a big way by saying Spence is better than Jamie Roberts, he's one of the top 3 centres in Ireland.

I'll never understand why people must thrust greatness upon talented young players rather than letting them grow into it.

Can't see any of BOD, Darce or Wallace going to the 2015 RWC.

Kidney won't want to bring in two midfield rookies for the 2012 6N, but will definitely want to start building options while BOD is still playing. IMO Spence would be as effective with him as any other.

I fall somewhere in between the arguments. if you are good enough you are old enough in my book. i actually think Deccie might have looked at Spence but for his injury. As it is there cant really be too many complaints with Spence not being in green at present.

That being said after the RWC we should be looking to introduce these guys. Form permitting i expect Spence will see some gametime in the 6N. I still dont think he is a 12 though

Yeah, I really don't think he has what it takes to play 12 at test level.

I don't think he has what it takes to play at test level yet, really, he needs to work on the weaker aspects of his game. He may be thrust into the limelight before he is ready. The other options are not great, which is putting the pressure on for change.

I would much rather see McFadden come in, a much more rounded player.

I dont know notch. In terms of physicality i think spence beat McFadden. i hear your point though and i think we have to back our coaches. I dont think EOS was the right man to bring through youngsters. He scapegoated guys and was imo quite reactionary in that regard. I dont think Deccie is the same.

it will require a change of mindset from fans and coaches alike and we may have to suffer a few poor results before it reaps rewards but i think Deccie is cute enough to play the likes of a Spence, point out where the improvement needs to come and encourage him, whilst at the same time keeping him in and around the squad.

Oh, Spence should be around the squad. No doubt there is a lot he can learn from that.

He may yet end up on the wing ala Trimble.

Notch wrote:Yeah, I really don't think he has what it takes to play 12 at test level.

I don't think he has what it takes to play at test level yet, really, he needs to work on the weaker aspects of his game. He may be thrust into the limelight before he is ready. The other options are not great, which is putting the pressure on for change.

I think if Gordon D'arcy, Fergus McFadden and Paddy Wallace have what it takes then Spence certainly does as he had a far better season than any of them last year and on current form looks likely to have a better one this year too.

Considering he has 10 years on Wallace and D'arcy and 4/5 on McFadden I'd be more optimistic of him eradicating the "weaker aspects" of his game than either of the other 3, none of whom are the complete article either.

In my opinion Spence is more equiped and ready to play 12 at test level than McFadden and possibly Paddy Wallace too.

See, thats crazy. Wallace can pass, kick, offload, step, tackle, he's a good decision maker- he's a very rounded player. A pretty complete player when you figure in how he is able to to get past the tackle and set it up albeit lacking the top-end class and physicality to be a truly great international. Spence can run hard in a straight line, has good footwork put in a few big hits but when it comes to passing, offloading or kicking the ball he's just not as good as any of the other players you've mentioned. These are in no way optional skills for a test level 12- they are fundamental skills which he does not yet possess to a high enough standard. That's not an insult to him, you just seem to have completely lost the run of yourself regarding this player. I'm sure in time he can develop into a test-level player, I think most likely on the wing or at outside centre.

It's this tendency in ireland to selectively ignore players weaknesses; why we end up with 9s who can't pass, centres who can't offload or pass, props who can't scrummage. Just because a guy is exceptional at one part of the game doesn't mean he should be an international if the rest of his game doesn't pass muster.

'I'll never understand why people must thrust greatness upon talented young players rather than letting them grow into it.'

I fully concur with this statement. And given the valuable Irish WC 2015 winning backline being churned out by our academy at the moment I feel thrusting weight and expectation on them at such a young age is harmful. On here we all speak in awe about Jackson being Ireland's next 10 and Marshall being as good as he wants to be. I pray to the lord that neither see such comments and remain unfazed by expectations or media pressure. The future looks good for Ulster. Please let us fans not find a way to man sausage it up.

Rodders - it seems that some prefer to selectively ignore players strengths and would rather they served long apprenticeships to learn their trade and improve their weaknesses rather than exploit their strengths now. Lest we put in danger these fragile flowers development they must be gradually nurtured at lower levels in the shade without being exposed to the sunlight of Test rugby... and we wonder why the SH are so far ahead of us?

When should they come into the fray? When they have all won a HEC? The old chicken and egg scenario. Perhaps they would benefit from being exposed at the highest level now and learn how to deal with it when it really matters?

Again i am falling in between these arguments. I fully understand that Spence has plenty to work on to become a test/world class centre. Undeniably so. I dont see the reason why he can work on these at international level considering our options and the 'changing of the guard' at centre that must (imo) take place after this RWC.

I also think that there is no harm in thrusting expectations on these players. That is the part of the fans. Obviously coaches and those around them will want to temper that to a large extent but dealing with expectations is part and parcel of the game and the sooner they learn to deal with it the better. Exposing these guys to test level early is the best way to develop them imo. As long as the coaches back their decision and back the young guys

Not a bad situation to be in though to be fair to have all these guys at one province.

On the issue of Spence, I think it is good that he gets experience at 12. I saw him in that U20 side there and he looked poor but he looks a vastly better player now there. Good for him to have another string to his bow.

I do expect him to end up at 13 though, largely because that is the position he is suited to best but mainly because of Marshall at 12.

MBTGOG - Isn't it ironic that Spence is expected to be a 13 because of LMarshall's potential yet he can't be a 12 to accommodate BOD in the later years of his career?

Can he not warrant a place on his own abilities?

Probably not at 12 for Ireland in my opinion, though he could well be a worthy successor to BOD in time. But I do feel Marshall has a lot of potential to be a top class international inside centre and it's very important from an Ireland point of view he gets gametime there for Ulster.

Willy no one is thrusting greatness on anyone. I'm saying on form Spence is knocking very hard on the international door that is all. Off course he's not great or the complete player. I'm not saying he's the next star of world rugby only that he compares favourably with our current crop and might actually offer a bit more if (and when) he gets the chance.

Notch if you think Spence can't pass or kick as well as Gordon D'arcy or Earls when he's played 13 then I don't agree and I certainly don't agree that Paddy Wallace is the complete number 12. To say that Wallace and D'arcy are complete players at inside centre and Spence isn't is total double standards in my opinon. None of these guys are complete players but you are exaggerating Spence's weaknesses and ignoring those of the other players we have.

Aukster I couldn't agree more sir.

You're missing the point Aukster. I would suggest BOD move to 12 to accomodate Spence. BOD at 13 is a legend but the extra space there is only so good as the 13's pace allows. As such Spence would be of more value there. Again i think we are in need of rebuilding after the RWC and i dont think playing BOD at 13 is sacrosanct.

Its not about moving Spence out due to Marshalls potential but rather due to his skillset which (at this early stage) seems ideally suited to 12 whereas Spence is more suited to the wider channels

Stand I think as long as BOD is playing he will play 13. He didn't move to accommodate Earls or D'arcy and I don't think he will to accommodate Spence.

Spence's best opportunity of getting international honours in the near future is at 12 and to be honest it wouldn't surprise me if Kidney has had a hand in his selection there. Remember he was selected there for the Saxons too.

Spence looks very comfortable at 12 and I think he would learn a lot along side BOD. BOD would also benefit from the space that Spence could make for him. Eventially he will likely move to 13 to accomodate Marshall for club and country but he'll gain and offer more playing in the 12 short term than being shunted out to the wing where he's neither suited nor needed.

The fact that Spence can play 12 and 13 is good for him, good for Ulster and good for Ireland.

Stand - I agree Marshall is suited to 12 and not 13. However I don't agree that Spence is a 13 and not a 12 - IMO he could be both depending on who is inside/outside him. If you think BOD will move to 12 at this stage in his career then I suggest you put a bet on with Paddy Power as you'd get fairly long odds. I'm not arguing with the sentiment BTW but rather the likelihood of it happening - zero.

roddersm wrote:Notch if you think Spence can't pass or kick as well as Gordon D'arcy or Earls when he's played 13 then I don't agree and I certainly don't agree that Paddy Wallace is the complete number 12. To say that Wallace and D'arcy are complete players at inside centre and Spence isn't is total double standards in my opinon. None of these guys are complete players but you are exaggerating Spence's weaknesses and ignoring those of the other players we have.

Well clearly Wallace is slower than Spence, less powerful and less physical. But yes, he is a more complete player. He has a wider skillset. D'Arcy can certainly pass better than Spence! I'm not exaggerating Spences weaknesses, he genuinely needs some more time and experience to develop into the player you already think he is.

The only time Earls partnered BOD in the centre for Ireland was Wales 2010 when Earls did actually play 13. I think D'arce got injured early in that game. Spence was only selected at 12 for the Saxons because O'Malley has never played 12. Victim of his versatility perhaps.

I actually think you may be right regarding BOD always playing 13 for Ireland but to my mind the future is more important and BOD could/should easily move in one to help the progress of future international centres. No sentiment allowed in professional sport. Thats not to say BOD wont be a better 13 at that stage but that in the interest of building something that will endure after the great man retires we should consider moving him.

All hypotheticals as Spence may be playing like a drain and McFadden like Tim Horan by then!

Just to add to this the best performance from Ulster last season we had Luke Marshall at 12 and Nevin Spence at 13! Thats the future as i see it. SUFTU!

I'm sorry, but Paddy Wallace is not a complete player. He might be a fine distributor with a decent kicking game but he doesn't offer much if anything in a ball carrying role and that is a big part of playing inside centre.

The Great Aukster wrote:Stand - I agree Marshall is suited to 12 and not 13. However I don't agree that Spence is a 13 and not a 12 - IMO he could be both depending on who is inside/outside him.

Yeah precisely, he is very capable player at both 12 and 13. He just needs a creative player alongside him. Both Cave and Marshall are good partners for him, with their handling and offloading. He's an important player for us; his strike running offers us a good outlet. I feel we need that without Ferris. Our backrow aren't fantasticly destructive carriers and his directness gives the guys around him license to play.

MBTGOG wrote:I'm sorry, but Paddy Wallace is not a complete player. He might be a fine distributor with a decent kicking game but he doesn't offer much if anything in a ball carrying role and that is a big part of playing inside centre.

My point was he can cross the gainline and present clean ball on a consistent basis, hence he fulfils all the primary functions of an inside centre to some degree. Spence does not fulfil all the criteria of an inside centre.

Notch wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:I'm sorry, but Paddy Wallace is not a complete player. He might be a fine distributor with a decent kicking game but he doesn't offer much if anything in a ball carrying role and that is a big part of playing inside centre.

My point was he can cross the gainline and present clean ball on a consistent basis, hence he fulfils all the primary functions of an inside centre to some degree. Spence does not fulfil all the criteria of an inside centre.

Does he though? If yes, at what level?

...at every level he's played. Against Scotland being the most recent example. I'm not suggesting he's punching holes in defences or is powerful, I'm saying he'll take the ball to the defence, use his footwork to get beyind the tackle and present clean ball.

MBTGOG wrote:I'm sorry, but Paddy Wallace is not a complete player. He might be a fine distributor with a decent kicking game but he doesn't offer much if anything in a ball carrying role and that is a big part of playing inside centre.

I concur and this is the crux of my entire argument. Spence's strength, speed and footballing ability means he potentially offers more than either Wallace or D'arcy, who is a shadow of the awesome player he was, at 12. Whether or not Marshall will be a better 12 and that he will end up at 13 long term is neither here nor there because he is playing 12 right now and doing it very well.

Notch wrote:...at every level he's played. Against Scotland being the most recent example. I'm not suggesting he's punching holes in defences or is powerful, I'm saying he'll take the ball to the defence, use his footwork to get beyind the tackle and present clean ball.

Notch, the gainline is the back foot on the opposition side of the ruck. I would be incredibly surprised if Wallace was crossing that consistently. He might not be dominated in tackles but he isn't breaking the gainline consistently. In that game you mention, he was consistently tackled behind the gainline.

Ah in fairness to paddy he did make ground in his last two centre appearances for Ireland. He has had to as Ireland dont seem to know how to use a playmaker at 12. He isnt Nonu or Roberts but he has done ok in that regard.

Paddy has also been breaking the gainline for some time at Ulster. Look i say this and i am not his biggest fan. In fact i am hoping Luke Marshall has displaced him by next season but Paddy has been breaking the gainline consistently. Not by massive amounts and occasionally he will get scragged but i dont think his physicality in this regard is a massive issue. Certainly not for Ulster and it has definitely improved for Ireland. Its not that he is going to blast people in the contact area but he has learnt to jig and dance for that yard or two.