Ulster vs Glasgow Discussion

First topic message reminder :

Teams have been named for this encounter at Ravenhill tomorrow night. Both sides are significantly depleted with the RWC and a few injuries in the mix as well.

ULSTER

15 Adam D'Arcy
14 Craig Gilroy
13 Darren Cave
12 Nevin Spence
11 Ian Whitten
10 Ian Humphreys
9 Paul Marshall

1 Paddy McAllister
2 Andy Kyriacou
3 Jerry Cronin
4 Lewis Stevenson
5 Dan Tuohy
6 Pedrie Wannenburg
7 Willie Faloon
8 Chris Henry (c)

16 Nigel Brady, 17 Conor Carey, 18 Adam Macklin, 19 Neil McComb, 20 Robbie Diack, 21 Ian Porter, 22 Paddy Jackson, 23 Peter Nelson

GLASGOW

15 Stuart Hogg
14 Tommy Seymour
13 Rob Dewey
12 Troy Nathan
11 Colin Shaw
10 Duncan Weir
9 Colin Gregor

1 Jon Welsh
2 Pat MacArthur
3 Mike Cusack
4 Tom Ryder
5 Rob Harley (c)
6 James Eddie
7 Chris Fusaro
8 Ryan Wilson

16 Finlay Gillies, 17 Ryan Grant, 18 Ed Kalman, 19 Nick Campbell, 20 Rory Pitman, 21 Henry Pyrgos, 22 Peter Horne, 23 Federico Aramburu

Some pretty interesting decisions from McLaughlin on this one! He's certainly building his reputation as a coach who trusts in youth. Conor Carey, Adam Macklin and 18-year old Peter Nelson will all make their competitive debuts should they get off the bench. The Ulster Academy has been working overtime lately. Its a new position for another Ulster Academy graduate; Ian Whitten is on the left wing. He may well have to adapt to survive with the glut of talented centres in Ulster. Fairly unsurprised- McLaughs penchant for big, physical wingers is well known. Probably something to do with the number of times his back moves involve them coming off their wings and running hard lines into midfield. Lock Dan Tuohy returns from a hamstring injury to partner Lewis Stevenson in his Pro12 homecoming game for Ulster. The continuing absence of Declan Fitzpatrick and Tom Court plus the delayed arrival of John Afoa means Munster-born Jerry Cronin gets another chance to try and stake a claim for his adopted province.

For Glasgow the discarded Scot Johnnie Beattie is absent- Ryan Wilson is at Number Eight. There are three players in the side making their competitive debuts; Michael Cusack at tight head, and new signings Troy Nathan and Tommy Seymour in the three-quarters. Seymour will have a point to prove after failing to establish himself in an increasingly competitive Ulster back division over the past few seasons. It'll be bittersweet for me watching him at Ravenhill; I'm delighted to see him advance his career, but disappointed he's not in the home colours as he is a very talented player.

Kick off is at 7.05pm, broadcast on BBC NI and BBC Alba.

An inside centre that breaks the gainline consistently at international level is worth his weight in gold. That is a fantastic quality to have.

Notch wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:I'm sorry, but Paddy Wallace is not a complete player. He might be a fine distributor with a decent kicking game but he doesn't offer much if anything in a ball carrying role and that is a big part of playing inside centre.

My point was he can cross the gainline and present clean ball on a consistent basis, hence he fulfils all the primary functions of an inside centre to some degree. Spence does not fulfil all the criteria of an inside centre.

Hang on a minute Notch. If you admit the primary role of an inside centre is to cross the gainline and present the ball on a consistant basis then there's no way you can argue Spence doesn't fulfill that criteria and Wallace does. I'm not knocking Wallace who is a decent and underrated player but you are applying double standards here. In the past season Spence has got over the gainline more consistantly than Wallace and has made less handling errors and poor passes in contact which Wallace is pretty prone too at times.

Just watching the game here at the same time. Humphreys would do well to us his forwards a bit more. Vary the play instead of using them as decoys the whole time.

Tuohy spent a lot of time out wide carrying the ball in the first half. Very effective but.........

MBTGOG wrote:
Tuohy spent a lot of time out wide carrying the ball in the first half. Very effective but.........

"But" nothing, Donnacha O'Callaghan wears Dan Touhy pyjamas....

Ihumph was rubbish though.

Yes, he's making ground when he gets the ball. Adam D'Arcy is much the same, albeit even less physical. Clever footwork gets you a long way. Obviously I don't really think Wallace is great at 12 without a strike runner at 13. But I think the criticism of him as a ball carrier is a bit unfair, he will get the ball back quickly and get us on the front foot.

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:I'm sorry, but Paddy Wallace is not a complete player. He might be a fine distributor with a decent kicking game but he doesn't offer much if anything in a ball carrying role and that is a big part of playing inside centre.

My point was he can cross the gainline and present clean ball on a consistent basis, hence he fulfils all the primary functions of an inside centre to some degree. Spence does not fulfil all the criteria of an inside centre.

Hang on a minute Notch. If you admit the primary role of an inside centre is to cross the gainline and present the ball on a consistant basis then there's no way you can argue Spence doesn't fulfill that criteria and Wallace does. I'm not knocking Wallace who is a decent and underrated player but you are applying double standards here. In the past season Spence has got over the gainline more consistantly than Wallace and has made less handling errors and poor passes in contact which Wallace is pretty prone too at times.

I would genuinely dispute that one rodders. Im not having a go at Nevin but i wouldnt say that he has spilled less ball than Paddy. As i have said before a 12 that can keep the opposition on the backfoot is priceless. Nevin has 2 or 3 strings to his bow but is missing others. He could potentially learn them. My issue is that both Marshall and Wallace seem to have them inbuilt so it is unfair to compare. Its more natural to them.

You said he broke the gainline which is a different thing. It might seem like I'm being pedantic but it's a big difference.

roddersm wrote:

Hang on a minute Notch. If you admit the primary role of an inside centre is to cross the gainline and present the ball on a consistant basis then there's no way you can argue Spence doesn't fulfill that criteria and Wallace does.

Primary function of the inside centre in attack is to create space for the men outside him and create opportunities for them. This can be done by strong, hard running, a clever passing game, being able to offload the ball out of contact. You get different styles of player who basically fulfil the same role in different.

I think Wallace can take a crash ball although it's not a strength of his game and retain possession, set up the next phase. Spence can do that better, but he doesn't vary his game. Offloading and passing remain weaknesses. Therefore I feel Wallace is more complete. If you need to crash it up, Wallace can do it to some extent. If it needs to go wide quickly, or find a support runner coming on an inside line, right now Spence can't really do that very well. I also feel decision making is something he needs to develop, but thats not really a criticism because he's young and that'll come with time.

I wish we could just graft Wallaces hands onto him. Just strip him for spare parts at the end of his career Then he'd be a very good player.

MBTGOG wrote:You said he broke the gainline which is a different thing. It might seem like I'm being pedantic but it's a big difference.

Yeah, I know. I probably misrepresented my views.

Stand I agree comparing Wallace and Spence is not comparing like with like. I would argue that Spence has inbuilt attributes that Wallace will never have too so it's horses for courses.

In my view what Nevin brings is more valuable in the current way the game is played i.e. he's powerful, quick and pretty skillful. Of course Wallace has a better range of passing and brings a kicking game but like I've said above I don't think thats as useful these days, certainly not at international level.

I'm not sure what D'arcy offers these days but thats another story.

Jesus we're going round in circles here . Look I'm a fan of Spence but I don't care who plays where as long as Ulster and Ireland are successful.

Happy times ahead chaps

roddersm wrote:Stand I agree comparing Wallace and Spence is not comparing like with like. I would argue that Spence has inbuilt attributes that Wallace will never have too so it's horses for courses.

In my view what Nevin brings is more valuable in the current way the game is played i.e. he's powerful, quick and pretty skillful. Of course Wallace has a better range of passing and brings a kicking game but like I've said above I don't think thats as useful these days, certainly not at international level.

I agree with the first paragraph entirely, but I feel the opposite regarding the second. I think defences are so well-organised that a crash ball merchant will ultimately have little effect or impact if thats all he can do as he is so easy to predict and therefore nullify. Graeme Morrison, Shontayne Hape and Jamie Roberts are cases in point.

MBTGOG wrote:Just watching the game here at the same time. Humphreys would do well to us his forwards a bit more. Vary the play instead of using them as decoys the whole time.

Gratefully moving on from ongoing circular debates, you're right. I feel like sometimes we have an advantage up front and we don't press it home because we move it wide quickly. I can see the style of rugby we're trying to play, but there's no harm keeping it tight at times.

On Tuohy, I feel it was a bit of a landmark game for him in terms of his performance in the lineout.

roddersm wrote:Stand I agree comparing Wallace and Spence is not comparing like with like. I would argue that Spence has inbuilt attributes that Wallace will never have too so it's horses for courses.

In my view what Nevin brings is more valuable in the current way the game is played i.e. he's powerful, quick and pretty skillful. Of course Wallace has a better range of passing and brings a kicking game but like I've said above I don't think thats as useful these days, certainly not at international level.

I'm not sure what D'arcy offers these days but thats another story.

I would however argue that Marshall looks to have the complete package for a 12!

As i have said i would not mind seeing Nevin in green sooner rather than later but i feel he should be given that chance as a 13 rather than a 12. I would argue that someone that can pass like Wallace or Marshall is more important for Ulster in that it takes pressure off iHumph and gives us more options at first receiver. However you could argue that someone with Spence's physicality is necessary for Ulster in that he can babysit iHumph more, in which case i refer to my first point

Last post.

Passing to the forwards in midfield isn't even keeping it tight really. Punching holes in midfield is important and part of an expansive game.

It's interesting though, getting the diversity of views on Spence.

I think I've read everything to the next BOD to the next Kevin Maggs, from knocking on the door for Ireland selection to not being good enough to start for Ulster when everyone is fit.

I generally end up arguing with both. He is very valuable to us but the hype is out of whack with the reality of the player.

Needs to vary his game more basically; final word on that

Thoroughly enjoyable debate lads.

I shall bid you all a goodnight

Notch wrote:
On Tuohy, I feel it was a bit of a landmark game for him in terms of his performance in the lineout.

I thought that was as good as I've ever seen Touhy play.

It's really frustrating that he got injured when he did because Ireland have been crying out for a dynamic ball carrying lock like Touhy.

Notch wrote:
I think I've read everything to the next BOD to the next Kevin Maggs

Actually I think he might be the next Tom Shanklin...

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it already but am I right in saying that Ulster played most, if not all, of that game with 14 Irish qualified players, with Wannenburg the only non-IQ?

I wonder what Neil Francis would make of that...

Notch wrote:It's interesting though, getting the diversity of views on Spence.

I think I've read everything to the next BOD to the next Kevin Maggs, from knocking on the door for Ireland selection to not being good enough to start for Ulster when everyone is fit.

I generally end up arguing with both. He is very valuable to us but the hype is out of whack with the reality of the player.

Needs to vary his game more basically; final word on that

I'm sorry I missed this debate. I agree Spence has his limitations and this will affect his International prospects. Moving him around the backs might help his development but he could be in danger of being labelled as "utility". Personally I think his best position could be on the wing and coming inside looking for the ball in broken situations.
I think Darren Cave has shown himself to be a better 13 atm and I would love to see him get more International recognition post World Cup. With regard to Luke Marshall, he is potentially a great prospect but will need to be in the team performing consistently by the end of this season. I believe the next 6-nations/Autumn Internationals will determine exactly who the Ireland Management feel will be D'Arcy/Wallace/BOD successors. These young guys will need to be ready to step up.

Apologies by the way for the double/triple postings on Friday night. iphone was playing up

Rava I don't think moving between 12 and 13 is likely to see a player labelled as a utility player. Moving to the wing however just might.

I think if Spence moves to the wing then he can kiss his career goodbye. I have no idea why you would move one of the best young centres in the country (and a country which has very few centres!) to the wing.

The only way Spence will iron out the "limitations" in his game is by continuing to play in the centres. Would O'driscoll be the player his was/is if he was moved to the wing early in his career because his passing and tackling weren't great?

Cave is playing very well but I think a lot of this is down to Spence.

Cave will play more at 13 this season than Spence and Wallace will be the man to play 12 when available (I actually don't expect Wallace to feature much for Ireland after the World Cup). If the policy is to use Spence at 12 then he will be limited in his gametime. If that is the case then there is no doubt McFadden, Earls and Cave will be ahead in terms of International prospects.
I am a massive Spence fan but still think he has limitations that could prevent him making a top class centre.

The other thing is of course: -
Who would your first choice be between Spence and Marshall at No.12?

Rava wrote:I am a massive Spence fan but still think he has limitations that could prevent him making a top class centre.

I give up. Gees you'd think all of the other centres around were perfect all round players. Spence has more talent in his big toe than Jamie Roberts and Shontayne hape have in their entire bodies. Feck you'd think every international 12 was as good as Tim Horan or Frank Bunce the way some of you are talking.

No more from me on this but I'll eat my hat if Spence isn't capped in the centre at least once in the next 12 months.

Rava wrote:
The other thing is of course: -
Who would your first choice be between Spence and Marshall at No.12?

Sorry just seen this. Right now Spence. If, when Marshall gets his chance he plays better then Marshall. Long term I'm sure it will be Marshall but right now there's no way Spence isn't a starter at 12 or 13. Cave is playing well but I think Spence is a better player and more key to the way we are playing.

Rodders chill mate, its a debate based on peoples perceptions. I respect your views but differ somewhat. I am delighted we have such talent at our disposal and can have these discussions. Just wish we were discussing future second rows and flankers

Sorry Rava I don't mean to have a go it's just I'm sick of hearing about our talented young players limitations when we have senior players who can't pass to save themselves and wouldn't know a linebreak if it bit them of the a*se. Mike Tindall has an MBE and a WC winners medal FFS!

Time will tell how good these guys will become. Enough from me on Spence, give me a shout when there's some 2nd rows we can argue about

Mike Tindall also was IMO the best player on the pitch in a recent Ireland v England game.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking "new is always better"

Rava wrote:Just wish we were discussing future second rows and flankers

What about David O'Mahony and Neil Faloon then?

Stag, England played a game suited to Tindall's (limited) strengths. Ireland would do well to employ such tactics from time to time.

Actually I though Spence's old sparring partner Tuilagi was the best player on the pitch and Tindall (who was excellent) revelled in the space his young partner created for him.

I'm actually a closet Tindall fan but lets face it if we were to start discussing his limitations then we'd have to move 606v2 to a bigger server .

My point is that there a very few players around without limitations to their games. It's about playing to your strengths and Spence has plenty of those and still has plenty of time to work on his weaknesses.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rava wrote:Just wish we were discussing future second rows and flankers

What about David O'Mahony and Neil Faloon then?

I hope I get an opportunity to see them play this season. Hopefully we will be debating them and their prospects on here in the near future.

I would agree with Stag. I thought Tindall outhone Manu that day. Goes to show how poor we were though. On the Marshall v Spence debate i would go Marshall at the minute. I think we can rotate between Cave and Spence depending on the game at 13.

We are at the mercy of our prejudices though. Whilst i appreciate the physical side of the game the greats all have the top two inches that EOS always referred to. IMO Marshall has shown he possesses this. The cardiff and dragons games last season show they are perfectly suited. How Marshall would get on with Cave i dont know

Rava wrote:Stag, England played a game suited to Tindall's (limited) strengths. Ireland would do well to employ such tactics from time to time.

We used to do it all the time in 2009

Best moment of skill in that game was Tindall fixing the Ireland centres before threading a perfectly weighted grubber through for Armitage. Great play; didn't know he had it in him!

Marshall and Spence constitute a perfectly balanced centre combination in my opinion; a 12 with the ability to kick, pass, run and offload as well as threaten the gainline with ball in hand and a powerful strike runner to feed off his creativity.

I think the reason I would prefer Marshall is his decision making and versatility, but he is going to make some poor decisions and mistakes when he comes in. It'll take him a wee while. Cave is experienced and in very good form.

Notch wrote:
Marshall and Spence constitute a perfectly balanced centre combination in my opinion; a 12 with the ability to kick, pass, run and offload as well as threaten the gainline with ball in hand and a powerful strike runner to feed off his creativity.

I think the reason I would prefer Marshall is his decision making and versatility, but he is going to make some poor decisions and mistakes when he comes in. It'll take him a wee while. Cave is experienced and in very good form.

I concur and whilst Marshall takes his time to get up to speed we can be content that we have a very good 12/13 combination to hold the fort in the interim.

I have the game on dvd but not seen it yet. (May not now that I know the score and there is so much rugby on for the next while) But I would just like to say that I am glad that we are not going to Ravenhill until late April.

Give us a chance to get up a bit of form.

I nearly always go up and will be happy for it not to be as cold and wet

Having said that, we could easily be needing a win next April and Ulster could be flying by then

Jared Payne has arrived in Belfast. She is lashing it down. Quick grab him before be leaves!