Could Douglas - Tyson have been different in the USA???

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:24 am

Why do soccer teams play better at home...Obviously because 30,000 fanaticals screaming for you makes your adrenalin pump even more and sometimes helps you find that extra yard to reach the ball ahead of your opponent.....That's why they call it home advantage.....because it's an advantage.

Let's face it had Tyson-Douglas been fought in a Vegas car park in front of 15-20,000 rabid fans screaming for Tyson (which let's face it would have been the scenario) how much more pressure would a well-known mentally fragile and pressured quiiter-Douglas been under!!! How much more adrenalin would Tyson have felt.. and how much encouragement would he have garnered from a excited crowd who'd come to watch him.....

Anyone who has fought knows it lifts you hearing screams of encouragement..brings out something extra.. an urgency etc!!

Never easy fighting in the dragon's den it's why most soccer teams are better at home......

The complete silence Tyson-Douglas was fought in suited the lacking in self confidence Buster.. who I'm sure didn't expect to win but thought I'll try my luck fighting behind the jab and see what happens..slowly building up in confidence through the fight....

Holy could probably beat Tyson anywhere 1994 onwards because he was super-confident..Douglas wasn't??

How much did Tokyo suit Douglas?? and could it or would it have been different in the USA.. ???

by **Union Cane** Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:25 am

Douglas isn't Japanese though?

Not sure it would have made any difference.

by coxy0001 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:27 am

Not sure you can attribute Tyson getting his arris handed to him because of a neutral venue? And he did get taken apart by a possessed Douglas, what's to suggest that if you moved the fight it'd be any different? There's quite a big competitiveness gap to close etc.

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:29 am

Union Cane wrote:Douglas isn't Japanese though?

Not sure it would have made any difference.

Think you're missing the point. He wasn't being supported, but neither was Tyson, so it was a level playing field in that respect, as opposed to a massively pro-Tyson crowd that could have contributed toward Douglas freezing.

by sodhat Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:30 am

I see the point, and having a crowd that you feel is 'on side' is a mental boost to anybody and it can certainly raise performance levels; numerous examples from football, rugby and other sports suggest that.

I suppose it comes down to how much a boxer needs to feel support and even how much attention they pay to it -- shouldn't they be focussed on the man in front of them...?

Perhaps someone of Tyson's renowned mental fragility would be affected by not feeling the 'love', but I don't think it is the single biggest factor in his defeat.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:31 am

Certain elements to consider..

1. The adrenalin screams of encouragement give you.....
2. Dealing with a hostile crowd..never easy with a guy who's history suggests he finds it easier to give up when in difficulty..
3. Tyson probably becomes more intimidating in a cauldron....
4. Tyson will probably find something extra in a hugely favorable environment as he had confidence issues as well..

So Douglas wasn't japanese..

by **Union Cane** Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:32 am

Surely there were more Japanese supporting Tyson than Douglas though?

Tyson was a world superstar at the time, bigger than the Beatles or whatever, and the Japanese do like a famous person.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:32 am

I'm not missing the point you are...

None of them were being supported because it was an atmosphere less arena...

My point is in Vegas it would be different....give me strength.

by Scottrf Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:33 am

It's an interesting view. I think the mental aspect paid a big part in this fight, but that Douglas was in a state of mind where a crowd wouldn't have affected him. I'm not sure once Douglas gets on top whether the crowd is enough for Tyson.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:35 am

Not suggesting Tyson wins........

Just think Vegas plays a big part.........Very intimidating atmosphere that only genuinely confident guys like Holy and Holmes would feel confident in....

Smith, Williams, Tucker probably all went in there thinking they had a chance till they entered the ring....

A cauldron is a cauldron and they all came to see Tyson in Vegas and let him know that..........and his opponent!

Different ball game for Buster..........

by coxy0001 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:36 am

Am pretty sure that if Douglas wasn't phased by Tyson trying to rip his head off and the whole massive aura he had about him at the time, then i very much doubt a guy who was completely in the zone and fighting like a possessed man would've been influenced by the crowd.

Key for me is the mental mindset he was in and never flinched from once. Even after getting dropped he went back to smashing Tyson around the ring the next round.

by Rowley Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:37 am

I'm not sure it would have made a difference. Think it was just one of those nights where it come together for Douglas, who lets not forget always had talent. There is a story that he got put over in sparring pretty close to the fight, if his mental frailties were going to come out have to think that would have caused it but apparently he came back the next day and kicked the guys backside from pillar to post.

Similarly think Tyson was just not there, had not prepared, was distracted by all the BS he was surrounded by. End of the day is not impossible a pro crowd could have boosted him but if you ain't prepared or focussed and are in with a talented guy who genuinely believed he would win, which I think Douglas did and for me the venue would have not changed the outcome.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:38 am

You're wrong if you don't think the environment you are fighting in doesn't affect you.......

Re-iterate my firm belief that Buster wasn't confident he just thought i'll see what happens...

The Holy, Jaco and Tucker fights show what Douglas was like inside..

by sodhat Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:38 am

coxy0001 wrote:Am pretty sure that if Douglas wasn't phased by Tyson trying to rip his head off and the whole massive aura he had about him at the time, then i very much doubt a guy who was completely in the zone and fighting like a possessed man would've been influenced by the crowd.

Key for me is the mental mindset he was in and never flinched from once. Even after getting dropped he went back to smashing Tyson around the ring the next round.

As opposed to it affecting Douglas though, it could have affected Tyson positively and raised his performance. Not saying that that is a given, but if Tyson was buoyed by the crowd and at his best because of it, I would back him to take Douglas out whether he is focussed or not.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:39 am

Absolutely Sodhat.....Everyone is lifted by huge support...

That's why they call it home advantage....

by **Union Cane** Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:40 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're wrong if you don't think the environment you are fighting in doesn't affect you.......

So I'm right if I don't think that the environment does affect you.

Which is what I said in the first place.

by Scottrf Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:41 am

I think a key to boxing is preparation. It just seems like Tyson's wasn't up to scratch for this fight. By the time he was in the ring it was probably too late.

by Waingro Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:41 am

I thought most of the Japanese crowd was up for Tyson anyway he got a way better reception to Douglas who nobody expected to win.

imo Tyson was just not focused who knows would things have been dfferent in America but Vegas is a distracting place aswell.

by Scottrf Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:41 am

Union Cane wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You're wrong if you don't think the environment you are fighting in doesn't affect you.......

So I'm right if I don't think that the environment does affect you.

Which is what I said in the first place.

LOL.

by **Union Cane** Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:47 am

What is the point though? You state the bleeding obvious (as with every thread that you write), saying that fighting at home is an advantage, which it clearly is. You then say that it was an advantage to Douglas to fight in Japan, which is clearly nonsense. When I point this out you dismiss what I say by going back to the first point you made (the bleeding obvious one) about home advantage, which is nothing to do with Tyson or Douglas. Its the same old thing over and over, you are becoming very tiresome.

by Sir. badgerhands Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:49 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Go away union..you're boring me now..

The arena was like a morgue.....You're missing the point..

Agree on that.

Japanese crowds are notoriously muted and reserved.
No way the atmosphere would live up to a typcally less reserved American crowd.

Do think however that it was just Busters night and would have been wherever they fought.

Buster losing his mother also has some bearing on the fight and really seemed to spur him on in his preparation.

by Scottrf Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:49 am

Tyson would have more of an advantage at home than Douglas. Therefore a neutral venue suits Douglas.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:52 am

Exactly Scotty... the thread is basically thrown out there to discuss just how much home advantage would count and could it have changed the whole fight fundamentals...

especially with a fragile psyche like Buster's...

by coxy0001 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:56 am

Scottrf wrote:Tyson would have more of an advantage at home than Douglas. Therefore a neutral venue suits Douglas.

Yeah, but as i've said above Douglas handed out a beating. A bit of cheering and support doesn't mean Tyson gets near reversing the tables.

Like it or not Tyson got his head kicked in by a guy who wouldn't back down, Douglas would be equally as focused post his mums death if the fight were in America. Tyson didn't have anything to really counter Douglas that night barring the bigger uppercut he landed and put him down with.

You're asking for a big swing based on "support". Which is far fetched as it would've had to have been a big swing as the fight wasn't even close.

by Rowley Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:56 am

There is a possibility though that had the fight been in Vegas it could have worked against Tyson because no matter where you fight the romance of the underdog is pretty hard to resist and had the upset been on the cards could have been the case the crowd got behind Douglas, specualation obviously but not beyond the realms

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:58 am

I think it's a fair enough article, don't see what the issues with it are, makes a lot of sense that it'd suit Douglas in a dead atmosphere.

Another way to look at it is that Tyson could almost smell blood when he had a baying crowd behind him, inspiring him to go in for the kill, however the subdued atmospehere could have changed something in his mindset, as well as Buster's.

by coxy0001 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 10:59 am

Seem to remember the crowd get going behind Williams when he had Tyson going and then down when they fought.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 11:02 am

Williams only lasted 60 odd seconds and they were pro-Tyson..

also it was Atlantic city my mistake.

You could be right Rowley but Tyson was different.....

Not as fickle with him I don't believe the fans..

by coxy0001 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 11:05 am

Didn't Williams (Danny) knock him out?

by **Union Cane** Tue 06 Sep 2011, 11:08 am

coxy0001 wrote:Didn't Williams (Danny) knock him out?

He did coxy, in Kentucky. I think old TRUSS has got the wrong end of the stick...

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 11:10 am

I'm talking about 1990 when he didn't have all the baggage...

by Guest Tue 06 Sep 2011, 11:45 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm talking about 1990 when he didn't have all the baggage...

Tyson had to have an extra 20 people to help him with his emotional baggage. The flight to Japan probably only stopped Tyson partying for an extra 14 hours which is what he'd probably have done had he been in America. The guy wasn't physically or mentally in shape for the fight and the venue would have made no difference whatsoever.

Arsenal just got done at home by Liverpool so how's that for home advantage...as for comparisons to Tyson/Douglas, like Arsenal, Mike was going through a real bad patch and it showed on the night. Home advantage might work for a guy who's in it to win it but Tyson certainly wasn't when he fought Buster.

by Steffan Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:11 pm

Tyson said in his story that he was nailing every Japanese piece going. This did not help his training

by Scottrf Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:12 pm

Steffan wrote:Tyson said in his story that he was nailing every Japanese piece going. This did not help his training

Sometimes a fight isn't important.

by Rowley Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:14 pm

To be fair Steffan wherever the fight was the world heavyweight champion was not going to struggle to find himself female companionship was that his mindset. Think the location does not impact on his focus or preparation. Truth is Douglas was a 42-1 underdog, Tyson has blown away guys perceived to be a far greater challenge, he genuinely believed he turned up and would walk through Douglas and prepared accordingly.

by ONETWOFOREVER Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:15 pm

The Japanese fans are not very vocal when it comes to fights as they are not very loud in reality. The atmosphere was not what Tyson was used to and this may have effected his game.

Great article.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:17 pm

But the location might impact on Buster's...It's a two way street..

What we do know is he'd have had a better chance with Rooney!!!

But I think robably Dougals does win but remember the long count the fight wasn't a slaughter as some have commented..

who knows for sure!!! in a Tyson cauldron...may have been different.

Just a what if?? thread..no harm intended!

by **Union Cane** Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:18 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:The Japanese fans are not very vocal when it comes to fights as they are not very loud in reality. The atmosphere was not what Tyson was used to and this may have effected his game.

Great article.

Could Douglas - Tyson have been different in the USA??? 1

by ONETWOFOREVER Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:22 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:But the location might impact on Buster's...It's a two way street..

What we do know is he'd have had a better chance with Rooney!!!

But I think robably Dougals does win but remember the long count the fight wasn't a slaughter as some have commented..

who knows for sure!!! in a Tyson cauldron...may have been different.

Just a what if?? thread..no harm intended!

TRUSS lets not forget that Douglas was determined to win because of the sad death of his mother so I dont doubt had the fight been held in America that he would have been more driven to win, but I think Tyson being in his comfort zone would have been more motivated especially with a mega money fight with Holy who was just around the corner.

by Guest Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:56 pm

to get back onto the point for a second, Trussman you make a serious error in stating that no way did Buster expect to win the fight.If you had done a bit of background reading on the subject and read the excellent book on the fight that was released in 2009, you would see that he fully expected to win.He had a personal dislike for bullies and knew that his career as an underachiever would crystalise into something permanent- a "legacy" if you will, (which every fighter seems to have these days).It wasn't just "oh, his mother died and that motivated him". There's a very interesting back-story to discover here should you have the time.

by Steffan Tue 06 Sep 2011, 12:58 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:But I think robably Dougals does win but remember the long count the fight wasn't a slaughter as some have commented..

You also say 'robably' instead of 'probably' as well I noticed Wink

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 1:01 pm

I believe he didn't expect to win.....Tyson was viewed as unbeatable back then by most observers...

I was Tennis champion in high and had to face a guy from the year below...who everyone thought was going to go on to big things later on in the final...he never did!!

I thought he was going to win but it didn't stop me trying and I soon realised I could beat him and my confidence grew and I won.....

reputation preceded him.........

I believe this was the case for Buster.....He'd wing it and see what happened...

Could be wrong but that's how I see it..

by Rowley Tue 06 Sep 2011, 1:01 pm

Andy is the book you refer to The Last Great Fight by Joe Laydon? If so would echo your recommendation that it is outstanding, have also read it and it does really suggest Douglas genuinely believed he would win the fight.

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 06 Sep 2011, 1:09 pm

rowley wrote:Andy is the book you refer to The Last Great Fight by Joe Laydon? If so would echo your recommendation that it is outstanding, have also read it and it does really suggest Douglas genuinely believed he would win the fight.

Although it pains me greatly to agree with Jeff, that truly is a fabulous book. It illustrates just how much stronger, mentally, Buster was/is given credit for.

I have to agree with the majority of posts in that I believe the venue was irrelevant on this particular occasion. Tyson was under-prepared and Buster was a man in total control of his body and mind that night. They could have held the fight in Tysons garden and the result would have been the same, at that time in their careers. Nothing to do with their respective talents, but on that night, home advantage wouldn't have made a jot of difference.

by Guest Tue 06 Sep 2011, 1:11 pm

rowley wrote:Andy is the book you refer to The Last Great Fight by Joe Laydon? If so would echo your recommendation that it is outstanding, have also read it and it does really suggest Douglas genuinely believed he would win the fight.

yes,sir, the name just popped into my head this minute.(Been in a road accident recently so not quite up to speed yet...punchdrunk like someone " who don boxing".
Absolutely terrific book and well worth a coupla quid, kept me thoroughly entertained for a few days and brought back all the memories!

by coxy0001 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 1:11 pm

I believe he didn't expect to win.....Tyson was viewed as unbeatable back then by most observers...

Wonder if Trussie will acknowledge he was wrong?

by Steffan Tue 06 Sep 2011, 1:12 pm

Douglas was certainly a man on a mission. I agree that it wouldnt have mattered where the fight was...Buster would have won

by kevchadders Tue 06 Sep 2011, 1:12 pm

Cant see it being different myself.

Just feel the mindset of both fighters was the key ingredient to the result, rather than the lack of support. Tyson couldn't have been more confident going into that fight and I don't think any partisan crowd could have phased Douglas in any way.

by Lumbering_Jack Tue 06 Sep 2011, 1:13 pm

Tyson was fragile and lazy.

Douglas wins no matter where they fight.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 06 Sep 2011, 1:14 pm

Conjecture Tino..........Just like my opinion..

Playing at home isn't the same as playing away......

Whilst you may be right...Douglas was a complex guy who had a history of quitting...Not a Holyfield....

Think with his personal troubles there is room for the couldn't care less Tyson is getting it theory..

Pro-Tyson crowd could throw in different variables though..

Your opinion is welcome though.

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