NZ v Tonga - match thread

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

First topic message reminder :

ITV feed: http://www.itv.com/itv1/

BBC text: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9583206.stm

Radio commentary - http://www.radiosport.co.nz/

[Knowsit17]

Not bad in terms of the final margin alone.

Certainly not very good in terms of sending an early message to the other sides. Frankly a very poor second half when taking into consideration the gap in class shown during the first 40 and the amount of possession. Handling let the AB's down in particular.

The Tongans showed late glimpses of that South Pacific-engineered ability to disrupt and discourage the very best, not least because they tackled like demons as has come to be expected. The scrappier it became, the more their tails were going up.

[GunsGerms]

Area of concern is also back up 10 surely. If you lose carter you may be in trouble no?

[TheGreyGhost]

Yes, but I can't even think about that leinster.

[Taffineastbourne]

My 29 point margin prediction wasnt too shabby.Shame I clicked on Tonga by mistake!I could have been a contender!!!!!!!

[Biltong]

My 29 point margin prediction wasnt too shabby.Shame I clicked on Tonga by mistake!I could have been a contender!!!!!!!

At least your thought processes were rather accurate, just a shame about that twitchy finger.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Our backrow cover is wafer thin as well. Read is a gamble but certainly a gamble we need to make. He´s too important a player when fully fit.

Hosea Gear would be an ideal left wing option but is not picked. Toeava didn´t convince there. Guilford is a super 15 player and nothing more. He´s honest and hard working but that´s what you want to see chosen by your daughter and not by the AB coaches. Dagg has played at left wing like in SA last year. Kahui seems good cover on the bench. Sivivatu would be another option but he´s out and he seems injury prone so that´s not such a bad thing.

Halfback is definitely a problem area. Cowan is too laboured in clearing ball and is way too hesitant. Weepu looks short of a run and full on sugar buns. He needs to start a few games to get some match fitness and make Cowan buck his ideas up.

Nonu is on fire and we will need him. SBW has some good elements but he and Nonu are too much of a likeness (not so much what they offer but the impact they have) so Henry should not persist with SBW in the tight games as Nonu is clearly better.

Our scrum, for a long time a weapon, looks shaky. This needs to be sorted out a well. Woodcock seems short of a run but good to see he came through 45 minutes. His absence and the Tongan scrum solidity was no coincidence.

[GunsGerms]

Yes, but I can't even think about that leinster.

I guess that's why he was taken off towards the end.

[GunsGerms]

They are having a phone in on radio sport now. Some funny punters. Most not over enthusiastic with NZ performance.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

leinsterbaby I don´t think Slade was that bad coming on. But the what if Carter or McCaw get injured is very tired.

What if Genia or du Preez or BOD get injured? You can´t replace world class players. Any team out there is going to be poorer for losing their best players. But until that happens what is the point of bringing it up?

What if Tonga played as well in the first half half as they did in the second?

[Taffineastbourne]

My 29 point margin prediction wasnt too shabby.Shame I clicked on Tonga by mistake!I could have been a contender!!!!!!!

At least your thought processes were rather accurate, just a shame about that twitchy finger.

I have got a bit of catching-up to do.I am currently ranked 13,635 out of 13,638.The only way is up!

[Biltong]

My 29 point margin prediction wasnt too shabby.Shame I clicked on Tonga by mistake!I could have been a contender!!!!!!!

At least your thought processes were rather accurate, just a shame about that twitchy finger.

I have got a bit of catching-up to do.I am currently ranked 13,635 out of 13,638.The only way is up!

Don't let it break your spirit, but if you picked wales for sunday you will remian there.

[Knowsit17]

I saw Carter miss two sitters by his standards and make little impact with ball in hand. In fact it was pressure on him, albeit excellently-applied pressure, that handed Tonga their only try.

SBW - can't fault him offensively. Maybe slightly questionable in defence, coughed up once or twice by my count but as already said the Tongans were on form at the breakdown with McCaw and the other AB forwards not being allowed much of a foothold.

[TheGreyGhost]

Offside-ly applied pressure on DC did you say?

[GunsGerms]

leinsterbaby I don´t think Slade was that bad coming on. But the what if Carter or McCaw get injured is very tired.

What if Genia or du Preez or BOD get injured? You can´t replace world class players. Any team out there is going to be poorer for losing their best players. But until that happens what is the point of bringing it up?

What if Tonga played as well in the first half half as they did in the second?

Calm down I was responding to a post about weaknesses in the NZ team, why get involved if the discussion doesn't interest you?

[GunsGerms]

Penalty count must be a concern for NZ. 13-4 or something

[TheGreyGhost]

TMO decision count runs against NZ too. Something like 4-0 this season.

I guess our luck must turn soon. We shouldn't have to deal with Vigilante again.

[disneychilly]

What will happen if Tonga play as well as they did in the 2nd hald for the full 80 against a misfiring French side?

[TheGreyGhost]

They are having a phone in on radio sport now. Some funny punters. Most not over enthusiastic with NZ performance.

Yeah Leinster, just ignore the bits where everyone keeps pointing out how much they don't like the English.

[munkian]

How the hell Tonga didn't get a penalty try I don't know

Richie 'born offside' Mcaw isn't going to need some bigger eye lash extentions to flutter at the ref

[TheGreyGhost]

Sigh. Clancy was yet again out of touch with what was happening for most of the game, randomly whistling penalties when he'd got too tired to get to the next ruck. Relying on his TMOs to keep the scores in touch as much as possible.

See Munkian, we can all make baseless hateful statements.

Now anything you'd actually like to add?

[Knackeredknees]

Offside-ly applied pressure on DC did you say?

I know GG its really annoying when people are say a yard or two offside at the rucks, giving them an unfair advantage.
Should be stamped out and yellows issued

[Knowsit17]

They are having a phone in on radio sport now. Some funny punters. Most not over enthusiastic with NZ performance.

Yeah Leinster, just ignore the bits where everyone keeps pointing out how much they don't like the English.

Not that you could entirely blame them after yet another ridiculously biased promo England got on what's supposed to be all British TV.

[GunsGerms]

They are having a phone in on radio sport now. Some funny punters. Most not over enthusiastic with NZ performance.

Yeah Leinster, just ignore the bits where everyone keeps pointing out how much they don't like the English.

That wouldn't bother me cause I'm Irish but no one was really saying that anyway.

[Knackeredknees]

They are having a phone in on radio sport now. Some funny punters. Most not over enthusiastic with NZ performance.

Yeah Leinster, just ignore the bits where everyone keeps pointing out how much they don't like the English.

Not that you could entirely blame them after yet another ridiculously biased promo England got on what's supposed to be all British TV.

I know how dare they mention a previous world cup winning side!!!!
All that talking to Grant Fox and previous winning players, tut, tut


Come on guys its the World Cup for god sake stop looking for things little things to be offended by.
ITV are like sky they play to the biggest crowd, I'm sure S4C never mentiond wales in the build up just talked about NZ & Tonga

[GunsGerms]

Aparently a bus crashed into a car which crashed into a bunch of tourists. Hope no one is hurt.

[Knowsit17]

WC-winning team aside, there are around 10 million people who will have been subjected to coverage of another side while hearing no mention of their own. Is that something you honestly condone or merely something you need not worry about not being part of that minority?

Of course England should have been permitted a mention...like Ireland, Scotland and Wales but as it was they were permitted more while the others were left in the dark.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

WC-winning team aside, there are around 10 million people who will have been subjected to coverage of another side while hearing no mention of their own. Is that something you honestly condone or merely something you need not worry about not being part of that minority?

Of course England should have been permitted a mention...like Ireland, Scotland and Wales but as it was they were permitted more while the others were left in the dark.

Are you trying to suggest that all 10 million Welsh people tuned into that game (or the preamble to it), and they diod so just to hear "lets not forget about Wales' appalling record in world cups"
And you wonder why peopel think cewrtain Welsh posters on teh internet have a chiop on their shoulder and look for slights?

Your human rights have somehow been infringed by not being "permitted" a mention?

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Does anyone know who the Man of the Match award was given to?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Does anyone know who the Man of the Match award was given to?

No I only listen when its about Wales.

[rodders]

By the way, who won?

[GunsGerms]

George Clancy won

[Knowsit17]

Are you trying to suggest that all 10 million Welsh people tuned into that game (or the preamble to it), and they diod so just to hear "lets not forget about Wales' appalling record in world cups"
And you wonder why peopel think cewrtain Welsh posters on teh internet have a chiop on their shoulder and look for slights?

Your human rights have somehow been infringed by not being "permitted" a mention?

While you may lightly regard it as over-reaction, I simply do not care for submitting to such a flawed view. ITV is a British channel, not an English one. Likewise, England are not the only British nation qualified for this WC, though an outsider may well have been inclined to think otherwise after watching today's showing. I repeat, does that strike you as acceptable? Though that question would appear devalued somewhat by the fact that I doubt you'd respond to it with anything objective, only choosing that which best conveniences yourself and refusing to put yourself in somebody else's shoes.

I say this because it happens time and time again. How would you feel if you had no choice but to subject yourself to blatant Welsh bias? I'm sure I've heard many like you cry out in annoyance whenever Jiffy provides commentary and analysis that isn't England-oriented, yet you conveniently keep quiet on the issue when you're not on the recieving end.

[emack2]

Please get real folks,look at the bigger picture this is a RWC,a scrapy starting match.A win by 6 tries to none,no injuries as far as we are aware.
No known combinations in the backs,pick holes in players as much as you like bonus point win.Almost certain passage to the quarters,Canada and Japan won`t be walk overs but no way will they beat the All Blacks.
IF they`ve a mind target the french game,pick a weak team go thru as runners up avoid the Boks.
Most likely field the A team v Japan with McCaw and Carter on the bench,personally I think.
They should field A side for next 3 games,get a Settled side for the quarters,
Read not expected before Canada game at earliest.
BUT we will get the horse for courses bit,and may well end up with another 2007.
Oh they should reach at least the Semi,BUT will we then have a case of whats my best team.
You can have THE Best coaches in the World,and by the record Graham Henry and co .are just that.and still not win a RWC.
TED is the only NZ coach getting a second bite at the cherry,Deans aside.
I have always fancied an Aus v SA final,hope i`m wrong but horses for corses in deed.

[Full Credit]

Reasonably good game to watch, Tonga kept the scoreline respectable with some good defence at times. Tonga's problem is still their lack of structure. At one time the half back got the ball out of the back of a ruck and took off to the open side and there was about a 30m gap between him and the winger with 5 AB defenders perfectly in alignment. If they just play it in tight they could be quite effective.

The AB's turned over some ridiculously easy ball in the first half and the Tongan backline was in tatters. Surely a yellow card can't have been too far away when NZ were dicking around on their own tryline with repeated scrum resets but at least they got over for one in the end.

Anyone know why both teams didn't haka-up at the same time?

[Guest]

i thought it was a decent game, but the all blacks were alwyas going to be too strong for tonga

[Biltong]

Alan, it was 6 tries to 1.

And the all Blacks won't be happy with that second half.

[Guest]

Just caught up with it on S4C, really enjoyed it actually. Some great skill from NZ in the 1st half, and brilliant endevour by Tonga in the 2nd. Also pleased that the new signing for the Scarlets next yeah in Sione Timani of Tonga looked really good when he came on 2nd half.

A nice start to the world cup

[welshy824]

not bad, great first half, back three look dangerous, cowan wasnt the best, second half NZ defended well and tonga showed that if you just dont allow NZ the ball then they will get irritated.

SBW played incredibly as did dagg and Kaino who is an outstanding 6. also thought slade showed some nice touches when he came on espicially for nonus try

[Taylorman]

Second half was a bit anticlimatic and GH has many things to work on.
Nonu and kaino stood out for me and with so many matches to go im not going to read a lot into that match which after todays and tomorrows matches will be largely forgotten.

What its told me is the 3rd tier teams will cause some pain to the seconds.
Those in the pacific cup- tonga, japan, fiji, samoa and add to that perhaps italy, will amongst them cause problems to their group 1's or 2's.
For me i didnt get a lot out of that game other than read, mealamu and smith need to come back. Nonu is genuine world class and gh has some work to do. Otherwise im good with how its started and now us kiwis can sit back and relax and even poke a few sticks at some of your teams over the next 36 hours. Love it!
Good luck to all.

And welcome to NZ!

[disneychilly]

Can't wait for England vs Argentina and Wales vs SA. Will be awesome.

I'm not worried about the Tonga match. I just think of England in 07 putting it together in the later stages of the tournament.

Really loved the pop pass floated from Slade to Nonu for the last try. Still took stones to pull off and he'll feel good about it. Yay for SBW running at the line. Kahui definitely looked the goods. Jane will hopefully put in a big game next week.

I'd like Mils to get the 100th cap out of the way and then Dagg to take over. I know Henry will have that in mind but I think he'll have to make the call for the knockout games and it's best to get any sentimentality out the way early. TBH there shouldn't be any to start with.

[Taylorman]

Yeah match was scratchy but this is world cup and one performance doesnt reflect what will happen in the next. In fact sometimes the opposite happens.

Win is priority, performance is secondary. So first box ticked.

Most teams would be happy with a 41-10 win against Tonga. I'd expect the team to settle now. Smith and Nonu to start the rest. Strengthening that combination is critical for knockout time and centre to the ABs chances of winning it.

If GH doesnt start them next week he's mad.

[TheGreyGhost]

Kahui and sb Williams to share a wing?

Has to be end of the line for Ali Williams surely?

[emack2]

I have looked at the Tonga v NZ game,six tries to one,plus two very near misses.First half NZ scored some lovely tries.,second half lost some shape
as they cleared the bench.George Clancy was very strict on the All Blacks,giving them very little.
Tonga second half played it tight,at the breakdown Clancy let them get away with murder.Offside,diving over,sealing off,pinning players down,everything THe All Blacks are accussed of doing.WELL DONE,play the Ref. On another day,with another ref you`ll be whistled out of it.
Scrums leading to the Tongan try,definitly some thing going on with the Front Row mafia.Penalty Try?I don`t think so if he was sure Clancy would certainly have awarded it.Pity ITV did`nt give shots of the scrum from the blindside.Tonga seemed to be twisting and lowering,but not having a visual I can`t be sure.
Trouble is Tight heads can grab a sleeve,pull opposing loosehead down and often win the penalty.
Few refs pick scrum faults correctly,and really need tuition from the front row mafia on the tricks of the trade.
GG what`s this thing you have about Ali Williams?
,when it comes to the grunt stuff he`s as good as any.
Kahui and Dagg made a statement,Toeva was alright ,SBW,and Nonu had good games.
Cowan was pretty poor,back row went well,set piece especially with Thorn and a fully fit Woodcock will be fine.
Must be a case for Weepu,and Ellis[who has impoved his game well]as first choice Scrum halves.
A win against a side who arn`t exactly rubbish as the Boks will remember from 2007.
Get the injured players fit,start Conrad Smith and Nonu,with SBW on the bench.Wing problem? theres a case for Muliana,Dagg,Kahui as starters.
Weepu and Ellis as scrum halves,Read starting with Kaino and McCaw.
Thomson or Vito on the bench,Brothers Grimm and Woodcock,Hore,Mealamu plus a choice for 3 Locks plus Thorn,and the side looks reasonable.
For the rest of the world,don`t open the champagne bottles yet,or draw conclusions from this game.
The All Blacks can do the kick fo territory and drive it up the front bit as well.All they need is a SETTLED side and some games together to build combinations.

[blackcanelion]

It will be interesting to see how tonga go in the tournement. They could do better thab many people think. They have a big side, and there's not much space on the field these days. They are stacked full of professional players. This is a home tournement for them, they should get great support for the game against france.

I'm not sure what to read into the game. The game eould have been huge for them. A fair portion of the team are connected to NZ, grew up here, played rugby here, and some even representated NZ at age group level. Hopefully, they can lift themselves again.

It will be interesting to see what the penalty count is like in upcoming matches. The count yesterday was low and that will really please them, especially as they usually get pinged relative to the opposition.

For the AB's, I worry about our tight 5. I wonder if Thorne has held on for a year to long, whilst Woodcock and Williams look like players who are coming back from long layoffs.

The backs were a mixed bag. They are getting close, but as with SA they left far to many try scoring opportunitys go begging to be happy.

We really have lost the battle for the minds of the ref. Penalty count of 2:1. In an age where the refs seem uncertain as to cause of scrum problems, we seem to be the team that is easy to divulge blame to. For all the talk about encouraging running rugby, it looks like 10 man rugby with a good kick chase will be favoured by the refs. I'm not sure if we have the team to play this style when it comes to the crunch.

[blackcanelion]

Scrums leading to the Tongan try,definitly some thing going on with the Front Row mafia.

Agreed. Not that the AB's weren't potentially offending as well. I thought that the tongan scrum was guilty at times of not setting straight. IMO the AB's got penalised for what weas actually a Tongan offence. However, there's a lot going on that's penalisable and the dark arts have always been a bit of a mystery to me (best to stay out wide).

[Taylorman]

Very good Alan. These days I tend to gloss over the tech bits in the front rows as its a bit beyond me and I get bored with the detail- and I was one of those backs who just watched with amazements how those guys got down and dirty week after week for years.

Others know better so I defer to their comments. I just want to see a result of any scrum- pushover, ball out, no collapse or injuries etc.

The breakdowns are a little different as they have less structure and more variation.

The backs still have that disjointed feel. Not as fluid and as crisp as the Oz line. Our breaks all seem to be half breaks with high % risk passes to get it. Oz get them with better lines and angles that we used to have and are now lacking, which I think is why GH is tinkering.

Still think hes going to close it down in the tight games and hes looking for outside backs that can complement a tight game- running it up, hard and straight. SBW wont get near the starting last 8 onwards for that reason- far too much of a risk.

Nonu surprisingly, has not been given his due credit for his effort. I thought that was one of his best and with others rolling with inconsistency all around him he remained solid, reliable and was all class, figured at key points in most of the tries.

He and Smith are going to make statements I believe. GH now has to make what currently looks like a disjointed backline a solid, reliable, even if it needs to be a boring one.

He's also got to sort out halfback. Most Wcup winning teams have had great halves- Kirk, Farr-Jones, Joost, Du Preez etc. We are lacking in the position. You might be right- Ellis might be better all round but none of the 3 is true world class. Behind that pack you'd think we'd have better.

[Taylorman]

The other thing I forgot to mention is once again we were inept for that vital period for 20 minutes after half time. Its where we have done zip in all our exits so GH needs to sort out why we can have a second half start like that in Brisbane, and this. Regardless of the opposition, the accuracy at this crucial period is where the match is usually won. In the end it didnt matter but against a stronger team it may have.

[Taylorman]

Agree Canelion... Tonga I believe have targeted France, who have Japan today. Im picking the biggest upsets will come from the Pacific cup teams- Japan, Tonga, Fiji and Samoa.

[emack2]

Surely Taylorman the answer is before you,I don`t want to say i told you so.But OZ for most of the games Hong Kong have used the same combinations.Genia,with Du Preez tho there styles are different are the worlds best.
Usually Scrum halves come in 3 types,one with a fast service like Catchpole or Loveridge,the runner like Genia, Syd Going,or the 9th forward Kevin Briscoe,Dickie Jeeps, Marshall.Kelleher,Cowan.
Currently for what I have seen in NZ,Cowan is 3rd type,Bredon Leonard the first type,Weepu the second.
You do`nt have to be world class one to 15,it`s a team game.
It is`nt good having a coach saying I don`t know my best back combination
and constantly rotating players.
TED and CO. Know there best team,say one thing do another.,I fully agree
they are the Worlds best coaching set up .
BUT this constant tinkering dos`nt sit well after the rotation bit of 2006/7
.Japan they`ll ring the changes big time,then some thing stupid like a load of changes for France.
THEN as if by magic expect them to click,like they did versus OZ,McCaw was fit needed game time.what did they do rested him,then expected him to get straight back on the horse.
THAT is what`s happening,FRANCE my team for what it`s worth.
Owen Franks,Mealamu,Woodcock,Thorn,Whitelock,McCaw,Vito,Kaino.Ellis Carter, Dagg,Smith,Nonu,Muliana.
Bench,Ali Williams,Hore,Ben Franks,Thomson,Weepu,Slade,SBW
I would be surprised and disappointed if i`m far out,Read is crucial both in terms of control and Leadership.
I would`nt start him before the knock out stages,bring him back early,breakdown and he`s out for the rest of the RWC.

[blackcanelion]

emack, we don't actually rotate anymore than anyone else. It's a bit of a bugbear over here. But teams like England, Argentina, South Africa and France all rested and rotated as much or more than we did. They all made the semis.

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