Could or Should Stephen Ferris play Second Row?

I don't think Ulster can afford to take him out of backrow and I also think that they have sufficient second rows. However there is a chance that Ireland need international locks and will look at some more alternative ideas.



At 6 foot 4 inches, he wouldn't be the biggest lock. Certainly if we are looking at a strong lineout weapon. However rugby is a diverse game.



Does Ferris have the skill set to play second row? Should Ireland look to try it out in the same way that Wales have done with Ryan Jones in the past or Leinster have done with McLaughlin. What would the consequences be for Ulster should that happen?

Stag if you'd have asked that a month ago I'd have said no way.

I firmly believe that Ferris is our best no 6 and along with Dusitoir is the best blindside in Europe.

However 2nd row is a massive problem right now for Ireland. Donnacha O'Callaghan is simply not up to the level needed and neither Cullen or Ryan have the dynamism we need to partner O'Connell.

Ferris would add really explosiveness and physicality in the tight 5 and it would allow us to play Sean O'Brien at 6 too alongside a natural openside. Ferris is a bit short at 6'4 but certainly has the physical strength to play in the tight 5 and is an excellent lineout jumper.

I'd like to see how we go with Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip in the backrow but if there are anymore inept displays from DOC then I think this is something we need to consider, at least in the short term.

He could make a decent fist of it for sure. I dont think he would be as good as people suggest. The bottom line is that he is a world class 6 and should be left in the back row.

With Wally (one would think) not likely to see the green again we have Ferris, SOB and Heaslip as our 3 world class backrows and given what we have seen of Ruddock, Faloon, Ryan and Mclaughlin so far im not certain our backrow depth is as healthy as we had previously thought.

There is a massive drop off in class when our 3 top back rowers (i am not including Wally at the minute) are not available so the issue for me is how do we get the best out of a backrow of SOB, Ferris and Heaslip.

The way i see it other then lineout restarts and scrums after that he would have a free role to do what he normally does, hitting rucks and making tackles, he is already an enforcer and the number on his back wouldnt change that too much

Dan Tuohy- work with him Deccie!

What do people see as the necesary skill set for a second row. Is the old ball player - enforcer pairing obsolete or still as important as before?

Standulstermen wrote:Dan Tuohy- work with him Deccie!

Yes but he's back in Belfast!

Stag the 2nd row pairing is about balance. 1st and foremost they have to win lineout ball and do the grunt work in the tight. However the top teams have mobile 2nd rows who can carry ball and have good ball handling skills.

There isn't much difference between lock and 6 these days, hence guys like Lawes and Hines and even Ryan can alternate between the two. Blindside is Ferris best position but I'm sure he could do a better job alongside O'Connell than anyone else in the squad right now.

As much as people are saying we are weak in the second row, we are even weaker in the backrow which may sound perverse to some. I truly believe we will be decimated by the Australian backrow on Saturday morning. O'Brien, Ferris and Heaslip are all good footballers, great ball carriers and excellent physicality. However, their work at the breakdown is very average, and in O'Brien's case is close to non-existent. We lack a true ball winning 7. Wallaceis the closest we have an is a massive loss to the team. Jennings, who I am a huge fan of and constantly trumpeted his name on the old 606 boards, has shown in his last two outings exactly what guys like Red_Stag and MBTGOG countered my suggestions with- he is a very good club player but simply not good enough to be an effective international.

The solution would be to stick either Kevin McLaughlin, Dominic Ryan or Rhys Ruddock in the second row at provincial level and keep them there. As an Ulster fan I think Ruddock will be a star, potentially a fantastic prospect and would keep him in the backrow. McLaughlin I am also a fan of and would like to see him in the second row permanently. The provinces have a bigger part to play here than the international selectors

I was at area 22 during the 6 nations when ferris was one of the guests and he was asked would he play in the 2nd row and he was fairly definite that he wouldnt play there

H&H, welcome to the forum. What was your old username? Glad to hear you see the light regarding Jennings



Caoimhin - although I think that chances of Ferris actually playing second row are unlikely, I'm surprised to hear that. You play where your told to play as a player.

I think he could do a good job, I think if Tuohy is given some special attention and worked on he and Ryan will be the next Irish second row pairing. that's my guess anyway

Realistically I'd expect that it will be Tuohy and Ryan with O'Connell and O'Callaghan still knocking about the scene too. Nagle with get a chance too, we may see a late blooming Toner get a few caps. All in all it will be a few average options I reckon.

Yeah I agree really doesn't look like an area of strength for us.

Maybe Ferris will be asked to fill a gap for us or possibly Ruddock.

As an outsider, I would worry that you would be plundering the backrow of a key resource to bolster another area, namely the second row, while weakening the former. It would be interesting to know where you think is your greatest potential for a new player to come thruto international standard - at 6 or in the boiler room? That might provide your answer?

NO. We have enough locks kicking around to cover that area. That said I agree that O'Callaghan didn't pull his weight against the USA. But he is capable of more, question is will he front up? I am sad to say that I think Aus will give us a bit of a spanking unless we pull our socks up and take it to them. We are going to miss wallace's play as we don't have a 7 that replace him at that level yet. Maybe Faloon and Ruddock in the coming years, but they are a long way from being an International 7. Good club players but just need to notch it up a couple of gears to put their hands up.

As a neutral, I don't think that there's any need to unsettle what is a good backrow combination for Ireland. You have some reasonable youngsters coming through in 4 and 5, so just stick to them.

You'd leak ball and yardage around the contact area if you moved him and there is an argument he isn't actually big enough to be a modern lock - look at Gray and Lawes, for example.

He needs to regain some of his old form to take back the title of best blindside in the north though - I would still have Kelly Brown ahead of him at present. But still a fan though.

George, Ferris has been playing as well as ever since his comeback and was immense against the USA and England.

Clearly I need to be up for the whole games and not just the highlights.

maybe. perhaps worth a try in the 6nations but if current form continues deccie will be playing to keep his job so experimentation may be at a minimum.

i think ferris is an absolute wrecking ball of a blind side so we arguably need him even more in the back row.

Ruddock is a bit taller than Ferris and McLoughlin so he may be one to convert.

I can't for the life of me see the point investing in the guy to produce one of the best 6's in the world and then ask him to play second row.

dublin_dave wrote:maybe. perhaps worth a try in the 6nations but if current form continues deccie will be playing to keep his job so experimentation may be at a minimum.

i think ferris is an absolute wrecking ball of a blind side so we arguably need him even more in the back row.

Ruddock is a bit taller than Ferris and McLoughlin so he may be one to convert.

Ruddock (Rhys that is) is 6'3". Ferris is 6'4" McLaughlin is 6'4.5" Tuohy is 6'5". They are all a bit short for an International lineout.

There is room for a 456 type player at club level but height is a major factor at the top level. You really want at least 3 players who are a 6'6" or more for an Intl lineout. Tuohy could scrape in but the rest no.

Tuohy seems to be getting better game by game and I think at least bringing him into the squad and seeing how he fares could be the way to go

red_stag wrote:H&H, welcome to the forum. What was your old username? Glad to hear you see the light regarding Jennings



Caoimhin - although I think that chances of Ferris actually playing second row are unlikely, I'm surprised to hear that. You play where your told to play as a player.

I saw that, he didn't say he wouldn't play there he gave the impression it would be a fairly stupid thing to ask of him and it was far away from his best position. A distinct lack of enthusiasm.

I know. Let's take a player with no cartilage in his left knee and put him in a position where the stress on it is substantially increased.

Ferris has actually played lock for us in an emergency before. But it should be left at that. As others have pointed out, Dan Tuohy has started this season in fine form.

Seeing this thread got me thinking. Could Sean O'Brien play centre? Sorry if this is a stupid question as I'm not the most knowledgable at rugby but I do enjoy watching it. As far as I know (I could be wrong) a centre's main job is to protect midfield. With Sean being a forward and a very mobile one at that I'm sure he could do that to a good level. Also his line-breaking abilities could be very useful there if I'm not mistaken.

Obviously O'Brien is mainly a flanker and should stay there if possible but if say Ireland had an emergency would he be suitable? At the moment it looks like the BOD/D'arcy partnership will not last too long after the World Cup and neither will Paddy Wallace, and the centres that I know left after that include Earls, McFadden and Trimble. (Sexton played there today but he is an out-half and will be the only one we have if ROG rumours are true ) To me that doesn't look like we have a wealth of talent especially compared to how good BOD/D'arcy are and have been. Although I may be making a completely idiotic point as there is someone I have blatantly missed as a current centre or there are some great younger players that look good prospects. Anyway what is everyone's opinions as I'm sure someone who knows a good deal more about rugby will give a lecture on how wrong I am and always will be!

No, I think the inside centres job in attack is to create space and opportunities for the players around him whether by passing, ball-carrying, offloading. In defence he must stop players on the gainline and slow down the ball. The blindsides job is to be a leader in defence, get the team going forward, hit a lot of rucks and set the tone in terms of physicality. The opensides role is to bend the laws at rucktime, secure the ball at the breakdown, get on the shoulder of bal-carriers and act as a secondary ball-carrier himself. Both flankers should tackle everything that moves and isn't wearing the same colour shirt or is the ref.

O'Brien is immense in contact, strong over the ball, dynamic ball carrier. I think his ball-carrying is needed nearer the fringes of the ruck- the 12 will stand a lot deeper and is easier to stop on the gainline. O'Brien will get us going forward in all kinds of situations.

Hi first post here from a long-time 606 lurker

What about shifting Ferris to play number eight? He started his career for ulster playing there and I think he would be hugely effective, has all the skill sets needed. With Heaslip's current form lacking and the emergence of O'Brien at blindside, I think it would be a good move for him and hugely beneficial for Ireland (there is a LOT of cover at 6, not so much at 7 or 8).

Er sorry I've changed my mind. The old DOC has made a welcome return to international rugby so we should be grand for the rest of the RWC .

After that the reinforcements led by Touhy are ready to step into the breach so we can leave Ferris were he is (the) best .

red_stag wrote:What do people see as the necesary skill set for a second row. Is the old ball player - enforcer pairing obsolete or still as important as before?

Depends if your name is Graham Henry ! He seems to believe that a second row combination must be made up of one player who is a lineout expert, with his locking partner being an enforcer type player. Obvious examples from Henry's international selections are having the brawny Craig Quinnell paired with the athletic Chris Wyatt as the Wales second row pairing during his single sole successful year as Wales coach in 1999, and having a second row pairing of Brad Thorn and Ali Williams as the NZ second row pairing during this current World Cup.

Notch wrote:No, I think the inside centres job in attack is to create space and opportunities for the players around him whether by passing, ball-carrying, offloading. In defence he must stop players on the gainline and slow down the ball. The blindsides job is to be a leader in defence, get the team going forward, hit a lot of rucks and set the tone in terms of physicality. The opensides role is to bend the laws at rucktime, secure the ball at the breakdown, get on the shoulder of bal-carriers and act as a secondary ball-carrier himself. Both flankers should tackle everything that moves and isn't wearing the same colour shirt or is the ref.

O'Brien is immense in contact, strong over the ball, dynamic ball carrier. I think his ball-carrying is needed nearer the fringes of the ruck- the 12 will stand a lot deeper and is easier to stop on the gainline. O'Brien will get us going forward in all kinds of situations.

Ah thanks for that. Obviously he is best suited to flanker because that is where he plays but if he was cloned I was wondering if Sean O'Brien Mk II could play centre in the Jamie Roberts mould.

When I read the first few posts i was astonished that people could be so dismissive of DOC after Saturday. I then noted that these posts were written before the Oz game. So I am hoping that the 'not being up to it' has been tempered somewhat.

I'll go further and defend him. In every big game this season and all the while POC was out injured/suspended, DOC was doing the work of two men. Even with MOD as the Munster no1 lineout option, he still took an awful lot of ball out of the air. His work rate was second to none, for province & country.

He is a bit like the guy who has to fill in for BOD/eventually replace him; no matter how well he performs he'll be seen as 2nd best. That's what happens when great players are missing. But we as fans have to cut whomever replaces those two some serious slack. Failing to seamlessly replace a POC or BOD is not failure.

Failing to plan for their absence is definately a failure. 2nd row isnt as big an issue for me as we simple dont have/havent had the calibre of replacement at international level. In the centre we havent tried guys

Pulled this article out of the archives as interestingly there was a discussion on RTE yesterday after the WC Final when Conor O'Shea picked his Ireland team for the 6N.

Healy
Best
Ross

POC
Ferris

SOB
Donnacha Ryan
Heaslip

Murray
Sexton

Earls
BOD
Bowe
Trimble

Kearney

There was general agreement on Ferris in the second row although an acknowledgement that he probably wouldn't want to play there.
Bowe at 13 isn't a bad call and O'Shea said McFadden should be groomed as BOD's long term successor

Not wild on the idea of Ferris in the second row I have to say.

I think Tuohy or Ryan should be there.

Ryan at 7 sounds silly to me, keep our RWC backrow and put Ryan,Tuohy, DOC in with POC. really hope Ryan and Tuohy get time at lock with their provinces and excel.

Love the idea of Bod/Bowe midfield.
Can see McFadden taking 12 and Spence taking 13 until Marshall comes in to take 12 making an ulster midfield.

Think Ferris and SOB worked really well as a backrow

One thing for certain is that he will not play there for Ulster. We dont need 2nd rows, we need back rows up here and he is our best by some distance.

Putting Dominic Ryan into the backrow is a massive mistake. I rate him but he hasnt really turned up for Leinster yet this season. I wouldnt mind seeing either him or O'Mahoney on the bench in place of Leamy though. This obsession with finding a 7 is becoming irritating. We dont have a natural one and Ryan certainly cant be described as one. Our backrow was not the reason we lost to Wales. We lost to wales because our only significant threat came from our backrow and our backs (in particular the centres) offer very little threat going forward

I like the idea of moving Bowe into midfield but we need fresh legs in there. Spence to come into 13 imo or again on the bench with the backline they posted. McFadden hasnt shown anything at 13 (because he doesnt play there) and hasnt really set the world alight at 12 where D'arcy kept him out. His best play has been on the wing but im afraid at 25/26 he may have been mismanaged to the extent that we wont get the best out of him.

Trimble at 12 and Bowe at 13 and we would have won the RWC. You heard it here 1st.

The only player McFadden is taking over from is Paddy Wallace.

I think the World Cup once again demonstrated that top international teams need an 'old fashioned' 7 in the backrow. The game has moved on and a 7 needs to be more than a 'fetcher', someone who can disrupt the opposition at the breakdown, wins turnovers, and generally be a pest. McCaw, Pollock, Warburton and Dusautoir (a 6 I know, but plays in the style of a 7). The common denominators? World Cup semi finalists, possibly the four best players of the tournament, and all play with a 7 on their backs or in the 7 style. Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip showed that yes they are the best ball carrying backrow in world rugby, but other than that they were ineffective when it mattered. I stayed away from the Welsh post mortum as it gets filled with nothing that hyperbole, but Warburton aside, the Welsh backrow is individually limited, but showed the importance of picking a balanced unit. I would have Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip over Lydiate and Faletau every day of the week. Yet at the breakdown in the quarter-final the Welsh gave us a lesson.

We need to look beyond picking the best players and pick the best unit. I would like to see Faloon given a go at 7 with Ferris at 6 and O'Brien at 8 if Heaslip continues his underwhelming form. In the centre I agree with O'Shea- move BOD inside to 12, and try Bowe at 13 and have Spence on the bench. Give Spence a couple of 20-30 minute runouts, bringing him on inside of anyone in the back three and move him into 13. McFadden for me is never going to be international class. Like Shane Jennings, a good club player, but just no quite good enough.

roddersm wrote:Trimble at 12 and Bowe at 13 and we would have won the RWC. You heard it here 1st.

The only player McFadden is taking over from is Paddy Wallace.

Sorry, not in a million years. I say this genuinely, I am a fan of Trimble as a player and he's my mate so I'm 100% biased when it comes to him, but he hasn't got the distribution skills or the positional sense to be an international centre. He is a greater winger, keep him there.

Looking at the amount of time we spent in the welsh 22 and the amount of ball won in the welsh 22 i dont think our backrow is a massive issue. Ideally i would love us to have a traditional style 7 and the loss of David Pollock has hamstrung us imo. Faloon isnt even picked (inexplicably imo) in the Ulster backrow at the minute but he isnt big enough for international level.

I agree though that if any of our backrow need to make way at the minute it is Heaslip with SOB moving to 8.

Standulstermen wrote:Looking at the amount of time we spent in the welsh 22 and the amount of ball won in the welsh 22 i dont think our backrow is a massive issue. Ideally i would love us to have a traditional style 7 and the loss of David Pollock has hamstrung us imo. Faloon isnt even picked (inexplicably imo) in the Ulster backrow at the minute but he isnt big enough for international level.

I agree though that if any of our backrow need to make way at the minute it is Heaslip with SOB moving to 8.

Theres two problems. The game has moved on and Ireland haven't. Size isn't an issue anymore and we need to move on from the 2003 days when you pick the biggest guys to steamroller over teams. It might work against some teams, it might even work against most teams, but a team with any wit and intelligence, like Wales for instance, will work us out. Our threats in the world cup were our backrow and back three and against a lesser Welsh backrow, and in fact lesser Welsh pack, we were dominated. Warburton isn't 'massive' either is Dusatoir. Faloon is big enough and I thought was consistently our best backrow forward last season (alongside Wannenburg and Muller perhaps)

If Faloon plays the big matches he should be given a chance for Ireland. Wales have showed with picking Dragons players that if you show form, even in a lesser side, you should get a chance in the international setup. Kidney, take note.

Standulstermen wrote:One thing for certain is that he will not play there for Ulster. We dont need 2nd rows, we need back rows up here and he is our best by some distance.

Putting Dominic Ryan into the backrow is a massive mistake. I rate him but he hasnt really turned up for Leinster yet this season. I wouldnt mind seeing either him or O'Mahoney on the bench in place of Leamy though. This obsession with finding a 7 is becoming irritating. We dont have a natural one and Ryan certainly cant be described as one. Our backrow was not the reason we lost to Wales. We lost to wales because our only significant threat came from our backrow and our backs (in particular the centres) offer very little threat going forward

I like the idea of moving Bowe into midfield but we need fresh legs in there. Spence to come into 13 imo or again on the bench with the backline they posted. McFadden hasnt shown anything at 13 (because he doesnt play there) and hasnt really set the world alight at 12 where D'arcy kept him out. His best play has been on the wing but im afraid at 25/26 he may have been mismanaged to the extent that we wont get the best out of him.

Donnacha Ryan of Munster who was at the WC is the one that O'Shea referred to rather than Dominic Ryan.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

roddersm wrote:Trimble at 12 and Bowe at 13 and we would have won the RWC. You heard it here 1st.

The only player McFadden is taking over from is Paddy Wallace.

Sorry, not in a million years. I say this genuinely, I am a fan of Trimble as a player and he's my mate so I'm 100% biased when it comes to him, but he hasn't got the distribution skills or the positional sense to be an international centre. He is a greater winger, keep him there.

Gees with friends like you who needs enemies! Tell him fun time is over and to stop loitering around on the wing his country needs him.

Besides Keith Earls thinks he can pass ok....

Rava Dom Ryan plays for Leinster old chap, you are thinking of Donnacha Ryan.

Cheers Rodders I have corrected my post. It was Donnacha Ryan who was being suggested as a possible convert to the 7 position.

Donnacha Ryan is too slow to be a 7 IMO. I think Dominic Ryan will give the Leinster 7 jersey a good fight. He is still very young and has some developing to do and I think he will be a good 7 for Ireland. He does need to learn some skills in terms of poaching but his link play is fantastic and he is quick, strong and has good ball skills.

Keep Ferris in the backrow if he is never gonna get a game with Ulster at lock!

Bowe to 13 sound delish!!!!

It was Dominic Ryan that Conor O'Shea was referring to. I like the idea but Ryan has not shown enough form to warrant inclusion. Of the young ones O'Mahoney seems to have made the best start to the season.

Hookisms

I would love to agree wholeheartedly with you but i cant. Faloon isnt big enough for international rugby. The season he broke through he was 14st 2lbs and i havent seen him bulk up notably. Its interesting that the Ulster website lists him at over 18st (which incidiently goes to show how reliable it has become).

I think Willie Faloon is Ulsters best 7 and he should be starting. I agree his support play is a good facet of his game. His tackling hasnt maintained the standard he set for it imo and he gives away penalties in stupid positions for ulster which has cost them this season. I would love to see him get a run with Ulster and show his worth but i just cant see him ever being top class. He is 25 now i think so the likes of Ryan, Ruddock and O'Mahoney have 3/4 years on him.

I disagree on the size issue as well. There are obvious exceptions but rugby players are getting bigger and bigger. The fact that they are mobile with it doesnt mean they arent bigger. Warburton is easily 16st and change, as is Brussouw, McCaw etc.
I would love to be wrong as Faloon is easily Ulsters best 7 but i cant see him making it.

I agree stand on the size think. You simply have to have that physical edge in the backrow.

I think the thing that seprates a natural 7 is the instinct to end up were the ball is. You can get a player to practise their skills on the deck but you can't teach a player to be in the right place at the right time.

Faloon has all the instincts and skills to be a top 7 but I agree stand physically he is not a match for the top back rows out there. He's 15 stone max and looks chubby at that, and guys like Warburton, Dusitoir and pocock are all well over 16 stone and superb athletes too. Fast and monstrously strong.

Can he get to that level? Maybe not, as you say he is 25.

Trimble to 13?

09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Earls
12 Darcy
13 Trimble
14 Bowe
15 Jones

22 Spence

I think Ryan, while not starting the season as well as O'Mahony, deserves a shot in the 6N squad more as he has HCup experience, has been up against some very good teams and has shone (I am thinking of the away game versus Clermont as an example where Ryan was up against some World class players and really showed up)

red_stag wrote:Trimble to 13?

09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Earls
12 Darcy
13 Trimble
14 Bowe
15 Jones

22 Spence

That won't happen Stag.
Why Darcy? No BOD?

O'Shea's team was for the immediate aftermath of the WC, so I wouldn't expect Spence to feature so soon, even as a replacement

Tell BOD and ROG to concentrate on making sure the provinces do ok in the Pro 12