Suzuka post race

Congratulations to Jenson Button for the win & to Sebastian Vettel for winning this seasons title.

Firsty, I personally thought it was quite a boring race. The top 6 drivers may have been incredibly close, however once again F1 and the tyre situation denies us the chance of any wheel to wheel action and the race was decided by pit stop strategy and a conservative but fully expected Red Bull team. Seriously as an F1 fan, if you cannot agree that F1 is being killed by this 'tyre conservation' period of f1 then you seriously are delusional & blinkered. Jenson Button is benefiting immensely from this 'era' in f1 as the rules & regs are exactly suited to his smooth driving style and ability, whereas Hamilton is completely on the other end of the scale, struggling on these ridiculous tyres, hampering the true out and out racing drivers. The tyre supplier change & preserving them is the antithesis of Lewis' style & it's key this year as Button has proved. The drivers don't even look tired after the races anymore, and thats because there not even racing anymore, there conserving the tyres throughout the race, conserving fuel and there pulling less G's due to these factors. Driving has become less and less physically demanding not only for the driver but for the car too, improvements in reliability of the cars and the engines has also been observed this season due to this conservation period.

All I keep hearing is 'this has been a great season' & ' the races have been fantastic' & 'Jenson has been brilliant again, what a driver'. Seriously, listen to yourselves! All I know is that F1 is not what it used to be.

Again good race by jenson. Also have to say Alonso did well.

Congrats to Vettel for the WDC 2011.

I agree John, the tyres have gone from one extreme to the other and it really is suiting Jenson to a T. Even Brundle was saying that the tyres are ridiculous. Hopefully next season Pirelli will tweek the design so they last a little longer than they are doing.

I didn't see the race as I was watching the rugby but well done to Vettel, hopefully we will see a better and closer Championship next year.

All about second place now

Well done to Jenson for proving he can win a dry race. Alonso was unlucky (haha), another lap would have seen him catch Button.

I thought it was a penalty for Vettel at the start of the race. He forced Button from the racetrack and that is a drive through penalty.

I look forward to a more competitive season next year (let's face it, it couldn't have been less competitive this year) so roll on 2012.

A final thought goes to MSC who's looking better with every race...

That was never a penalty for Vettel, that kind of thing has been going on for years, i remember Schumacher doing it multiple times to Coulthard in 2000 and there was never a penalty. Nor should there be now.

Very good drive by Button, really putting the manners on Hamilton just now and a good drive from Schumacher

yeah well done to vettel,button and alonso.

but for lewis,if it aint one thing its another.i mean he was in second place,doing well,then all of a sudden he gets a puncture and it ruins his whole race,and the slow pitstop didnt help.thats 2 punctures in a row now,and twice in a row lewis has had problems in quali leaving him unable to do a second flying lap in q3.

anyone else realise that Lewis seems to get more punctures than anyone else??? Just a observation.

Something's going on at Mclaren. I'm not a great believer in conspiracies but things are going well for the driver who has signed a new contract while the driver who hasn't signed a new contract is getting shafted

I thought lewis had signed a new contract a while ago? are you tell me lewis is currently without a contract for next season?

Hamilton's contract runs until the end of 2012. The puncture I would guess came from Liuzzi running off into the gravel a couple of laps prior to Hamilton receiving the puncture. I don't see any conspiracy, it's just seriously unlucky. I still don't think anyone has responded to my original posting regarding the current state of F1 and the implications it is having upon Button & Hamilton respectively.

Ah right.

NO no no i wasnt suggesting a conspiracy, it as just an observation.

imo if the tyres stay as they are, i cant see Lewis struggling to win races never mind WDC - unfortunately.

As said before the race consists of tyre conservation as opposed to going at it tooth and nail to catch the next driver up the track- unfortunately. Im personally not liking the way its going.

As it stands the button pushing, artificial overtaking tyre conservation (not preservation), blown/double/overblown diffuser nonsense is turning true F1 fans off the sport.

Hopefully the FIA sort this out. Pirelli are already making noises about improving quali, I want improvements on the race tyre. What's the point of creating a race tyre that prevents people from racing?

Is it just me?

It's a difficult one. On one hand, everyone loves an exciting race with loads of pit stops and overtakes but on the other hand when does it suddenly become purely about tyres than racing ability?

Belgarion of Riva wrote:

Is it just me?

It is not just you. I'm so frustrated with F1 currently and everywhere I turn I just keep seeing Button's face with a huge grin on it and the media bowing to his 'apparent' genius. I still to this day blame the casual fan, who tuned in to watch the Abu Dhabi grand prix and witnessed Alonso struggling to pass Petrov for an entire race and complaining. The die hard f1 fan enjoyed a 2010' season which was a classic with plenty of excitement, high drama, controversy and most importantly 'competition' for the WDC. However, the FIA decided to listen to the casual fan and media scutiny complaining after that race and decided to change the face of f1 for the worse. DRS, KERS & the introduction of Pirelli turned the sport from motor racing into a conservation of tyres formula with artificial overtaking, completely removing the excitement and skill out of an overtaking manoevre. Even worse is the fact that ultimately it has single handely handcuffed pure racing drivers like Hamilton and made drivers with less ability and speed competitive, such as Button. It's funny how Hamilton has never been beaten by his teammate when formula 1 was about 'racing', but now the tyres restrict the pure speed and talent of Lewis', he is now being outclassed by Button, a driver who for the majority of his career was labelled 'a laughing stock' with no special talent whatsoever. But thanks to these new rules, Button is thriving and the media, especially the BBC, can't get enough of him. Another thing that frustrates me is why do the ex drivers and media have such praise for this new format of 'conservation', they were once drivers themselves, so surely they too are witnessing the demise of the sport?

Seriously frustrated with the current ways of f1. Without doubt Pirelli have to improve the durability of the race tyre, it is beyond a joke. The qualifying format needs to be altered too, as time and time again we are seeing drivers not going out and drivers backing one another up at the end like in singapore & Japan.

john wrote:Firsty, I personally thought it was quite a boring race. The top 6 drivers may have been incredibly close, however once again F1 and the tyre situation denies us the chance of any wheel to wheel action and the race was decided by pit stop strategy and a conservative but fully expected Red Bull team. Seriously as an F1 fan, if you cannot agree that F1 is being killed by this 'tyre conservation' period of f1 then you seriously are delusional & blinkered.

Seriously john, you need to start watching Moto GP,If you think its so bad, why do you keep watching it? Go find something you do like!

Suzuka was a damn good race with action pretty much all the way through. How do I know? Put it this way, I have been known to doze off in previous seasons, back when races really WERE dull processions. Despite getting up half-asleep at 6 o'clock, I managed to stay away all the way through.

Secondly, there was wheel to wheel action right from the start...remember Vettel's move on Button and when Hamilton came steaming past? There was also plenty of overtaking further down the grid...or did you conveniently ignore that? Yes, there wasn't as much scrapping among the top 6, but they remained close enough to each other to keep things interesting (as opposed to one driver disappearing into the distance).

Wheel to wheel racing is NOT the be-all and end-all of F1. Its a complex sport where results can be decided by pit stop strategies, weather, crashes...all kinds of things. I repeat, if you can't appreciate all its facets, then maybe F1 isn't for you.

For instance, can you appreciate that Jenson Button only just won that race as McLaren under-fuelled their cars again? If it hadn't been for the safety car, he might have had to settle for 2nd or 3rd. As it was he was just able to put in a few fast laps at the end to keep Alonso out of DRS activation range, but had to park his car after crossing the line because he didn't have enough fuel to do the run-down lap (and still have enough to pass scrutineering).

In my humble opinion, thats a clever, if risky, bit of strategy on McLaren's part. It could easily have backfired on them.


Red Bull did the only sensible thing they could have done. Their cars were eating their tyres, plus Vettel and Webber were running line astern. Even without the tyre issues, you can't blame Horner for not wanting to risk them taking each other out.

john wrote:But thanks to these new rules, Button is thriving and the media, especially the BBC, can't get enough of him. Another thing that frustrates me is why do the ex drivers and media have such praise for this new format of 'conservation', they were once drivers themselves, so surely they too are witnessing the demise of the sport?

More complete and utter drivel.

Thanks to the new rules Button is thriving? Remind me when he won his world title...if you can.

Also, tell us who the new world champion is, if you please?

Whining about the new tyres just shows your complete lack of understanding.

In spite of the new regulations, Red Bull have won both driver and constructors' titles by a big margin. You could say Vettel is thriving too. Alonso isn't doing too badly either. If the tyres were the sole reason, the teams would be complaining.

Again, you demonstrate you do not pay attention with your babbling about "conservation". The only times the teams conserve their tyres are during qualifying, because they only have so many sets, which also have to last through the race. And before you rant about that, did you listen to the inteview with the Pirelli guy where he said they were looking at producing sets of qualifying tyres for next season so this doesn't happen?

Invariably they choose to compromise in qualifying,so as to have enough for the race. In case you weren't aware, most races used to only have 1 or 2 pitstops. Now they make 3 or 4 to compensate for the less durable tyres. Explain to me how equates to conservation?

Yes, sometimes drivers will still be told to look after their tyres at specific points in a race, but that used to happen during the Bridgestone era. Remember the race (think it was China 2007) where Hamilton crashed out while entering the pit lane because his tyres were shot? The Pirellis haven't changed anything in that respect - they've simply made more stops necessary.

Having more durable tyres will only cause teams to change their pit strategies. How long the tyres actually last will still be largely up to how well (or badly) drivers use them.

dyrewolfe wrote:
I say it is YOU who are delusional and blinkered for not seeing that the measures that have been taken have improved the on-track spectacle.

I agree to disagree with you. Overtaking in F1 nowadays is generally a uncontested, artificial and inevitable manoeuvre where the defending driver is powerless to defend his position due the condition of his tyres. How is an overtaking manoeuvre which prior to the introduction of the Pirelli's & DRS was an exciting, difficult, skill based move, been completely turned into a uncontested farse. Just when we expect some wheel to wheel action to take place on track between two drivers, a driver (the defender) suddenly pulls into the pits for a new set of tyres and the action has stopped. How is that an improvement of 'on-track', where most of the action is basically seen through pit stop strategy, seeing as the tyres are less durable and more stops are required. There's no racing anymore, it's not what F1 is about and the great history of the sport contains. Please go and watch 'Senna' the movie, you might just see some 'racing' for a change

TSC wrote:Well done to Jenson for proving he can win a dry race. Alonso was unlucky (haha), another lap would have seen him catch Button.

I thought it was a penalty for Vettel at the start of the race. He forced Button from the racetrack and that is a drive through penalty.

Nope - Button was just conserving fuel. The team simply left it a bit late to tell him how fast Alonso was catching him. Jenson had pace to spare, as he proved by pulling out a couple of quick laps at the end, to make sure Alonso wasn't close enough to use his DRS.

As for Vettel's move on Button at the start, it was no worse than what Schumacher did to Hamilton at Monza and there was no penalty given for that.

supremeskills wrote:yeah well done to vettel,button and alonso.

but for lewis,if it aint one thing its another.i mean he was in second place,doing well,then all of a sudden he gets a puncture and it ruins his whole race,and the slow pitstop didnt help.thats 2 punctures in a row now,and twice in a row lewis has had problems in quali leaving him unable to do a second flying lap in q3.

This time, Hamilton's qualifying problems were of his own making. He dawdled too much trying to get space for himself and ran out of time. You can't blame Schumacher and Webber for wanting to get on with it.

Button won this title thanks to the double diffuser. Fact. Then the FIA decided to re-write the rules n regs to suit Jenson' style even more through conservation & DRS, an area where Jenson previously struggled (& dont bring up brazil 09' cos Hamilton out performed Jenson that day). why would vettel be complaining or his team, they have the best car all season and rarely find themeselve in the pack or in dirty air which damages the tyre even more. I disagree 100% that the only time drivers 'conserve' their tyres is during qualifying which you state.

dyrewolfe wrote:[quote=TSC"]Well done to Jenson for proving he can win a dry race. Alonso was unlucky (haha), another lap would have seen him catch Button.

I thought it was a penalty for Vettel at the start of the race. He forced Button from the racetrack and that is a drive through penalty.

Nope - Button was just conserving fuel. The team simply left it a bit late to tell him how fast Alonso was catching him. Jenson had pace to spare, as he proved by pulling out a couple of quick laps at the end, to make sure Alonso wasn't close enough to use his DRS.

As for Vettel's move on Button at the start, it was no worse than what Schumacher did to Hamilton at Monza and there was no penalty given for that.
[/quote]
It was a debatable punishment. As a Button fan, of course I thought it was a penalty, but everyone else disagrees to I'll let it go. I wouldn't let it go if Button had crashed though .

I don't know if you watched The Pit Lane video with Ted Kravitz on the BBC sport website but Button actually did have only 2kgs of fuel left at the end and the FIA need at least 1kg for testing at the end of the race.

Belgarion of Riva wrote:As it stands the button pushing, artificial overtaking tyre conservation (not preservation), blown/double/overblown diffuser nonsense is turning true F1 fans off the sport.

Hopefully the FIA sort this out. Pirelli are already making noises about improving quali, I want improvements on the race tyre. What's the point of creating a race tyre that prevents people from racing?

Is it just me?

I know where your coming from but what do you suppose they do? Unless a car is atleast a second faster than the one ahead it is almost impossible to overtake as has seen by some of the horrific processional races from mid 2006 especially. Atleast with the DRS and kers it releases fundamentally faster cars so their races can't be ruined. They've tried multiple times to change the aero rules to help increase overtaking but it simply didn't work i'm afraid.

dyrewolfe wrote:

supremeskills wrote:yeah well done to vettel,button and alonso.

but for lewis,if it aint one thing its another.i mean he was in second place,doing well,then all of a sudden he gets a puncture and it ruins his whole race,and the slow pitstop didnt help.thats 2 punctures in a row now,and twice in a row lewis has had problems in quali leaving him unable to do a second flying lap in q3.

This time, Hamilton's qualifying problems were of his own making. He dawdled too much trying to get space for himself and ran out of time. You can't blame Schumacher and Webber for wanting to get on with it.

actually lewis was sent out too late.didnt you notice button not too far ahead of him?which means if lewis had of been going quicker he would have ended upto close behind button(2 or 3 seconds),which would have slowed him down on his 2nd flying lap anyway.

John wrote:Hamilton's contract runs until the end of 2012. The puncture I would guess came from Liuzzi running off into the gravel a couple of laps prior to Hamilton receiving the puncture. I don't see any conspiracy, it's just seriously unlucky. I still don't think anyone has responded to my original posting regarding the current state of F1 and the implications it is having upon Button & Hamilton respectively.

i know you dont believe in conspiracys,but,because of what happened 2 weeks ago(the puncture and refueling problem)which cost lewis second place in quali,button got it instead,i knew something would also go wrong for lewis in quali or the race in japan.i suspected something would go wrong with hamiltons car,or he'd get another puncture,or he'd have a poor strategy,or a long pitstop.and the reason why is because certain ppl imo,will not allow lewis to finish the season with more points than button.i mean if lewis had of started in 2nd place 2 weeks ago he could have won that race,then buttons lead would have been reduced,not extended.also if lewis hadnt of had that puncture,considering he was actually extending his lead over button bit by bit in japan,he could have maybe won that race too.so right now lewis would be alot closer to button on points,maybe he'd have more.so in the last 2 races when things have gone wrong for lewis,button has benefitted big time.
and i reckon we'll see more of the same if lewis starts to look like a threat to button again,you mark my words.
there was just something weird about the whole weekend in japan.first lewis is alot slower than button in all practice sessions,which has never happened before.then we had that strange moment in quali,and then we had the puncture in the race and problem in the pitstop.
i personally think mclaren are now going to focus most of their attention on button from now on,especially after seeing what whitmarsh said recently,which is

" Extending Button's contract is great for McLaren, he is a great asset and it's vital we build a car to suit his strengths and his requirements'

now you may think theres no conspiracy,and maybe theres not,but ever since whitmarsh took over at mclaren,things have gone downhill for lewis,whereas everythings fell into place for button.
also what ive noticed is,if lewis is ahead of jenson during a race,they seem to mess up hamiltons strategy in order to help jenson.ive noticed this quite a few times.
anyway we'll see what happens in the remaining 4 races.oh and when it comes to the tyre issue,i agree with you,but lewis up untill monaco was dealing with the tyres well.

supemeskills where have u been all my life lol! seriously i actually amazed that there is someone on here who is fully understanding whats going on at mclaren and in f1 generally. basically you havent been on here long but we've all be told to tone down our abuse towards each other and our favouritism towards a certain driver but the bu**shi*t i hear from so called button fans still astonishes me today. I didnt want to state there was a 'conspiracy' above because i knew the reaction i would get (you will too in time) Mclaren currently are a joke, unprofessional outfit and the biased and focus towards button is embarrasingly evident. There is no doubt in my opinion that whitmarsh will do everythin in his power to make button beat hamilton this season, to back up his decision in bringing button to mclaren. not so much the punctures but the strategy calls are incredibly dodgy. i agree 100% that if lewis is having a good race the decision is too hold back lewis with a dodgy tyre call or put him out in traffic so that jenson can close the gap (numerous times evidence of this). The fact the so called button fans (post 2009 season) cannot agree on here that the only reason button is competitve is due to the increasing importance of tyre management and conservation is laughable. ITs funny how hamilton will be beaten by a teammate the first year the tyres are changed and f1 turns from racing ability to tyre conserving. f1 is a joke currently and its only the casual f1 fan and deluded button fans who are enjoying this 'era' of f1.

I'm not a believer in conspiracies but something's going on at Mclaren. If you look at the body language, somethings up.

Whitmarsh brought Button to the team so he's got to fight his corner and show it was a wise business move. Nothing wrong with that. I think Hamilton's problems stem from the fact he hasn't signed a new contract and Mclaren are shafting him as a result.

After the Turkey fiasco last year Ron Denis started attending GPs, after all that's happened to Hamilton this season, he isn't. Something's up

Whitmarsh prefers Button to Hamilton it seems, it's nothing new, Hakkinen was the clear favourite of Ron Dennis when he partnered Coulthard. These guys are human just like you or me and they form closer bonds with some than other's but this "conspiracy" theory is just garbage. Why would Mclaren jeopradise millions upon millions of pounds in holding off Ferrari in the WCC just to see Button beat Hamilton? please show a bit of grace Hamilton fans, every driver has their bad periods. A bit of perspective in that Button drove some dreadful car's for years and years, Hamilton has always had a good car so maybe it's just time for Jenson to have his time in the sun.

i agree monty that they wouldnt risk jeopardising potential income at the end of the season but the evidence is damn good to suggest something dodgy is going down.

When your going around a track at such speeds there's so many variables that can happen, i think in terms of Hamilton he's just been unlucky with that puncture. If it happens two or three times more then i'd perhaps change my opinion.

This is ridiculous. I've thought about it for a while and I really do think something is conspiring against Lewis Hamilton at Mclaren. I don't think there is a full on conspiracy, I think it's just that Mclaren's workforce, especially Lewis' crew are the most unprofessional unit and are prone to some of the most basic errors. I do however fear that strategy calls are without doubt made with Jenson's race in mind and where he is in relation to Lewis. It has been blatantly obvious that when Lewis has been so far ahead of Jenson that Whitmarsh has clearly intervened to alter strategy so that Jenson (the driver he bought/his reputation on the line) is made to look competitive with Lewis. The number of times Lewis has bee bought out after a pit stop phase in traffic has been shocking. On numerous occasions Lewis' strategy has hampered him and withheld his true race potential and it has bought him back towards Jenson in many races. The Hungary tyre call was embarrasing and it is an admission of guilt that has led to the appointment of Sam Michael to improve the situation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/15242074.stm - Also not a suprise from the Beeb, already stating JB is the man to win the title next season. I can't believe the direction that f1 is heading in, basically catering for a driver with tyre management skills

Thats a pointless and quite frankly stupid article.

What driver doesnt set their sights at winning the WDC that season or the next??? Why do they feel they have to make an article about BUtton???

God i hate this blatant button ass licking by the bbc. He's done well this season, mainly due to the misfortune of others or the rubbish tyre conservation and sure he could POSSIBLY win next years WDC, but then so could 5-6 other drivers - i dont see articles about them.

Plus id add, its a bit early to start saying things like " X could win the wdc next season". We dont know what next seasons tyres will be like, waht the cars will be like (new designs etc), driver forms.

It's hype though fella's you know how it works, Raikkonen was supposed to win every championship for the next ten years when he moved to Ferrari. Hamilton was the second coming and would smoke anyone he took on for his whole career, Alonso was supposed to win multiple championships after 2006. Everything can change, at the end of the day f1 is made up of fractions and there is very little between say the top 12-14 drivers except what's between the ears and the luck they have in terms of what car they are given.

If it was Hamilton yesterday he would have had just as much hype and rightly so. Beating Vettel in a straight race this year is something barely anyone has done.

monty junior wrote:
If it was Hamilton yesterday he would have had just as much hype and rightly so. Beating Vettel in a straight race this year is something barely anyone has done.

I see your point in the first part of your post. But i dont agree with the part ive quoted. I dont think there would be anywhere near the attention they've made over Buttons win and certainly no article from the BBC stating Hamilton will win next years WDC if he'd beaten Vettel last weekend.

bbc backing button is fairly logical, as it is the BRITISH broadcasting corp. do you guys think in spain they'll be backing anyone other than fernando?

Erm Lewis is British.

If lewis had won yesterday they would of gone down lewis has turned the corner etc

Maybe thats probably a fair assumption. but they wouldnt be going on about him winning next years season.

Regardles of the article the bbc do not show the same level of support for lewis than they do towards button

monty junior wrote:It's hype though fella's you know how it works, Raikkonen was supposed to win every championship for the next ten years when he moved to Ferrari. Hamilton was the second coming and would smoke anyone he took on for his whole career, Alonso was supposed to win multiple championships after 2006. Everything can change, at the end of the day f1 is made up of fractions and there is very little between say the top 12-14 drivers except what's between the ears and the luck they have in terms of what car they are given.

If it was Hamilton yesterday he would have had just as much hype and rightly so. Beating Vettel in a straight race this year is something barely anyone has done.

Well said. The hype, praise and attention goes to whoever is deserving of it at the time. Hamilton got plenty of attention in 2007 and 2008.

Lack of praise and hype, or writing about a driver's problems doesn't equal lack of support. Its difficult to write glowing articles when there isn't much good to write about. Everyone knows Hamilton has had a difficult last few seasons. A dog of a car in 2009 and technical / strategy issues and run-ins with stewards the last couple of seasons.

Best thing is for him to be left alone to try and sort his problems out with the team. Judging from the interviews he's given lately, I get the impression Hamilton would rather stay out of the limelight for the time being.

In the meantime I would just tell certain people to stop reading between the lines and seeing some imaginary witch hunt against Hamilton. In all the time I've been watching, the BBC and the all the F1 guys have been nothing but objective and encouraging towards Lewis. The only unfair criticism I can remember is when Eddie Jordan had some fairly harsh words to say about him. Out of all the coverage he's had, thats not too bad.

In fact the worst criticism I've heard of Hamilton was Niki Lauda calling him reckless and dangerous. Thought that was totally unwarranted.

monty junior wrote:Whitmarsh prefers Button to Hamilton it seems, it's nothing new, Hakkinen was the clear favourite of Ron Dennis when he partnered Coulthard. These guys are human just like you or me and they form closer bonds with some than other's but this "conspiracy" theory is just garbage. Why would Mclaren jeopradise millions upon millions of pounds in holding off Ferrari in the WCC just to see Button beat Hamilton? please show a bit of grace Hamilton fans, every driver has their bad periods. A bit of perspective in that Button drove some dreadful car's for years and years, Hamilton has always had a good car so maybe it's just time for Jenson to have his time in the sun.

Its always nice to see someone with some common sense and perspective.

I have to hold my hands up here and say I have a few suspicions of my own, regarding the way things have panned out since Button joined McLaren, but the simple fact is that any of the things the conspiracy theorists point to, can be easily explained by logical strategic / tactical choices by the team, unfortunate incidents and the like.

Until there is something more solid to point to, I shall reserve judgement.

Regardless of how good or bad Whitmarsh's relationship with Lewis Hamilton is, you're entirely correct that no team principal worth his salary would deliberately harm the team's title chances because of how they feel about a driver. It'd be easier to simply replace the driver if things had deteriorated that much.

Indeed, if Hamilton was that unhappy, he could always have another chat with Christian Horner after next season, (Webber only signed a 1-year extension, didn't he?) or maybe even speak to Mercedes, if Rosberg ends up leaving.

I understand that you want to reserve judgement but more and more people (not even hamilton fans) and media/ex drivers are all starting to question the on goings within the Mclaren team. There is no question that Whitmarsh favours 'His Jenson' or as the Beeb & Eddie Jordan put it, 'Our Jenson' ahead of Lewis. So why is Lewis being completely outclassed by Jenson his teammate for the first time in his career? Is it simply down to the tyre management skills required in f1 nowadays which is simply fundamental to any success instead of actual driver ability? Or does the continued evidence which is stacking up suggest that car development is being completely designed around the needs and wants of Jenson through Whitmarsh's intervention. Continued setup alterations from Lewis throughout this season suggest this may be possible. Shocking strategy calls, pit stop performances and undoubtedly incorrect setups have plagued Mclaren all season, however the vast majority of the fowl ups over the last two season have sided on Lewis' side of the garage. Ever since the arrival of Jenson and the 'link up' with Whitmarsh, Lewis' career and performances have nosedived. Coincidence?

Why would McLaren sabotage the best racer in F1 (Vettel is a driver, not a racer) for Jenson's sake? It's absurd. Are you saying they purposely slashed Lewis' tyre during the Japanese Grand Prix?

I think Lewis needs Anthony back as his manager and needs to spend less time with Nicole. He has to remember he is a sportsman first and a celebrity second.

And then we come to the whole "Will Lewis Leave McLaren?" argument. The answer is "NO!!" He'd want to be at a top team that was capable of winning races so that leaves 4 others minus McLaren (RB, Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault with a bit of work could win races).

RB: He wouldn't get on with Vettel. They are quite similiar and ferociously competitive.
Ferrari: He's worked with Alonso before. It wouldn't happen again.
Mercedes: German's only, apparently.
Renault: If it had a bit of work done, I could only see him leaving McLaren for Renault. But then again, I can't see him and Kubica in the same team, if Robert ever comes back which I'm sure we all hope he does.

I clearly stated in a previous post that the punctures were 'unlucky' and clearly had nothing to do with 'sabotage'. I wanted a clear, sensible debate not a bashing of each others post. I want as a group to understand what is currently unfolding at McLaren and the effect that jenson's/Whitmarsh relationship is having upon the team's employees and most importantly Lewis himself.

John wrote:I clearly stated in a previous post that the punctures were 'unlucky' and clearly had nothing to do with 'sabotage'. I wanted a clear, sensible debate not a bashing of each others post. I want as a group to understand what is currently unfolding at McLaren and the effect that jenson's/Whitmarsh relationship is having upon the team's employees and most importantly Lewis himself.

Well in that case, the team love Jenson and Jenson loves the team. Lewis has had a bad year. He'll come back next year fighting. Everyone has a rotten year. We only noticed it with Lewis because he has always raced a (pretty much) competitive car.

TSC wrote:Why would McLaren sabotage the best racer in F1 (Vettel is a driver, not a racer) for Jenson's sake? It's absurd. Are you saying they purposely slashed Lewis' tyre during the Japanese Grand Prix?

Come on its not that hard to believe. For whatever reason Jenson is whitmarsh's golden boy (it would seem). Ron left and whitmarsh took over. He then gambled on bring jenson in and wants to make it work. Lewis isnt as important to him. So naturally he'd like Button to succeed. After all if Button was to do badly or not as well as he should would look bad on Whitmarsh.

Im not saying he's out sabotaging lewis strategy or car or whatever. But possibly he's not supporting or getting involved with Lewis' racing as much as he should.

Feel free to agree/disagree with any of that. But thats how i see it.

As for the tyres. Well word has it Pirelli are reviewing their tyre designs for next season so they last a little longer then they do at the mo. I dont think there's any conspiracy just pure coincidence that Pirelli were brought in to improve F1 by making tyres that dont last a full race like they did in the previous season, just so happen that they've gone from one extreme to the other. But it is clear the Button is benefitting greatly from this. But here's to hoping the tyre situation improves.

The one thing I will say about the curent tyre situation, with regard to Button, is that you don't hear him complaining about lack of grip or heat in his tyres as much as he used to.

However, besides different tyre design, that could equally be down to a better car design that works the tyres harder, or Button adopting a more aggressive driving style. Or a combination of all three.

I guess we'll find out soon enough if Pirelli do produce longer-lasting tyres for next season.

Wouldn't making long lasting tyre work better for button?

if he can do 1 stop whilst other do two then he's going to storm most races provided he's doesn't get many issues

That said, I will repeat that you cannot rationally blame the Pirelli tyres for Hamilton's problems.

His driving style, particularly his habit of sliding his car through corners, means he has always been harder on his tyres than most other drivers. Even when they were running Bridgestones, he often had to come in for new tyres before anyone else.

john wrote:I want as a group to understand what is currently unfolding at McLaren and the effect that jenson's/Whitmarsh relationship is having upon the team's employees and most importantly Lewis himself.

How about dropping McLaren an email then and asking a few probing questions, about the state of Hamilton and Whitmarsh's relationship and how they see Lewis' role within the team.

I'm sure we'd all love to know.