England Post Mortem

Where now for England?

2011 will be forever known to England fans as the world cup where the Professional approach went out of the window replaced with Tindallgate, funny balls, Jumping off of ferries and dwarf throwing have I missed anything else? as the list was a long one, and the saddest thing for me wasn't losing to France (we all knew what the French can do) no it was the England legends that faded away through out this RWC Wilko & MJ.

Have their reputations been tainted, for the short term, yes IMO.

So where now, I for one would be happy to sacrifice the next 6 nations and try and build a team capable of playing a more positive style of rugby in the four years leading up to the next RWC which is here unless the RFU really muck it up.

What do you guys want to happen?

Well their performances wont be remembered, but at least your players seemed to have a good time and made a few videos for youtube.

I wouldn't even say it's sacrificing the next Six Nations to change personnel and the approach of the team. I don't think excluding certain players that didn't perform at this World Cup will necessarily weaken our chances.

Deacon, Moody, Easter, Wilkinson, Tindall and Cueto shouldn't be in the squad for my money. Let's move on.

not really bothered about trivial press- however the press didnt help our performances- which were shocking

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Where now for England?

2011 will be forever known to England fans as the world cup where the Professional approach went out of the window replaced with Tindallgate, funny balls, Jumping off of ferries and dwarf throwing have I missed anything else? as the list was a long one, and the saddest thing for me wasn't losing to France (we all knew what the French can do) no it was the England legends that faded away through out this RWC Wilko & MJ.

Have their reputations been tainted, for the short term, yes IMO.

So where now, I for one would be happy to sacrifice the next 6 nations and try and build a team capable of playing a more positive style of rugby in the four years leading up to the next RWC which is here unless the RFU really muck it up.

What do you guys want to happen?

It will be interesting to see what happens with MJ, if he'll carry on/get the boot etc. What i would like to see with the team is we start bringing in some more youngster to give the 4 years experience before the next RWC.

I'm a firm believer that the coach should pick the team. Jonno can't, he just can't. Ditch him and move on.

france used the last four 6n to build a team for rwc. probably more players capped by france in the last four years than the home nations combined. the 6n (and the AI's) is a good tournament to introduce new players, bring guys in slowly, two or three in tournament, and a team can really build over four years.

however, we are in rwc mode at the moment and we are forgetting that come the spring there will only be one thing on our minds, beating our opponants, triple crowns, and grand slams. (oh, and watching rugby in the pub at a normal time)

We have longer summer tours coming in as well, so more players will be taken as part of the midweek squads and looked at by the management.

Players that should not be considered anymore in my book (includes some non squad players):

Tindall
Moody
Wilkinson
Shaw (only because he's now 38 - he was one of the few on the tour who gave everything)
Flutey
Payne
Wilson
Deacon
Easter
Cueto
Mears

Let's get rid of some dead wood and bring in some fresh talent who actually have a DESIRE to play and do well rather than just turn up out of form and expect to do ok.

The RFU will mess about with coaches and inquiries and sadly there's nothing we are able to do to influence them one way or another.

Nu pun intended but where was Wood - That guy looked the real deal in Cardiff in January

Fresh approach needed for the 6N. No mucking about, ditch those that aren't going to be playing in a year or two and give game time to those that need to be developed, even if it means a few losses.


My EPS would look something like this:

Corbisero
Marler
Cole
Stevens
Mullan
Hartley
Gray
Webber
Attwood
Lawes
Kitchener
Parling
Wood
Croft
Fearns
Robshaw
Dowson (I'd be looking to bring Crane in for/addition to him when fit again)
Guest

Youngs
Care
Simpson
Flood
Burns
Twelvetrees (to play centre)
Barritt
Tuilagi
Lowe
Joseph (for OC & wing, great bench option)
Ashton
Sharples
Short (tempted to throw Wade in, but probably a bit too soon)
Foden
Brown (harsh on Armitage who looks back in form and is more versatile, but Brown is still a better FB in my book)

I'd expect Haskell to challenge when he returns next year and I'd also have a very close eye on Armitage at Toulon to see if he could be tempted back (maybe even an 'exceptional circumstance' if he really performs).


For the Saxons I'd hope to see the likes of (there's more than a squad here):

Brookes
Thomas
Imiolek
PDJ
Wilson
Youngs
Haywood
Buchanan
Day
Slater
Launchbury
Skivington
Saull
Kvesic
Mercer
Gibson
Seymour
Clark
Nutley
Narraway
Gray

Young
Dickson
Ford
Clegg
Farrell
JTH
May
Trinder
Allen
Waldouck
Benjamin
Wade
Homer
Yarde
Elliot
Armstrong
Varndell
Banahan
Armitage
Goode
Ransom
Abendanon

After reading most of the broadsheets today my conclusion is that England need to make far less changes than many are suggesting.

I would actually persist with Johnson though look for other maybe more refreshing coaches to change the environment for the players.

On the player level there is an article in the telegraph evaluating who should stay and who should go. Catching the title, I wondered whether the journalist initially wanted to take an axe to the under achieved squad, but on reading, really he only put the sythe to the old and unnecessary he didn't look for anymore.

There is also the thought that the real issues are far beneath the top of the game and Steven jones' Sunday Times critique of the England fall out is far more in-depth. Investigating English rugby from the roots up to when the leaves sprout... He identifies many issues. Most lacking conclusion though.

All interesting stuff....! Though I think that in the same way the daggers were sharpened with verve yesterday, they will quickly blunt and solutions will come to the for. England are far too big a rugby nation to dwindle when the next tournament is at home.


My personal thoughts relate as a comparison to my team Wales. In the same way that I can't understand quite how we have traveled the rocky road from dawdling mediocrity to shinning lights, (so far), constantly improving with such a rapidity that I can't understand why a team as exuberant as the England team that beat Wales in Cardiff could become the team that lost in Cardiff in late August. Stuttering where before they had dived swan like...!

It is most likely purely the environment and the same old faces that breed mediocrity, it is fresh ones that brighten your day and enrich your chances.

Sometimes you need to sweep the cobwebs out of the shed and start potting for the spring, we have done it many times in Wales over the last twenty years.

Eventually you see fruition.

SO WHAT WENT WRONG.....

"M`Lud, guilty to all offences.."

I guess thats the standard response from almost half of the English squad over this past month of RWC, and theyre only the ones we have been informed about.

England have a "clear out" no holds barred team meeting after their dismal performance early on in the pool stages.. did it work?? Mmmmm???

Manu Tuilagi - whilst only a boy, but playing a mans game in the spotlight of the worlds media has now been fined twice... twice!!! One for something his brother had already been fined for - the gumshield, and the second for swimming ashore... you have to admit that when he was interviewed on "Has-Cam" (more on that to follow) he did sound a can short of a six pack... So not really surprised.

A member of the Royal Family; caught on CCTV in not one but two different watering holes with the same "lady" and after the event couldnt explain what happened as he was too caned to remember and to make matters worse Johnson defended him so did a number of his team mates, the same guy was the Captain during the SN this year. Can you believe that????

"Has-Cam".. WTF!?!?!?! Sheep shearing, bungee jumping, cruising round in a battered up old shed of a motor and worse of all encouraging fellow Squad members to slag off other squad members on camera and broadcast over the internet ... And to make matters worse, this false media reporting is sponsored by the RWC!!! Four years of prep to redeem the loss of 2007 and half the squad are swanning round the island as though they had won the cup already and turning up was only a fomality.

If I have forgotten or missed anything feel free to add on. Im an English fan, always have been and I hope; always will remain so, but I find the lack of discipline on this tour for a competition they say they have trained and prepared for to be totally amateur and lacking in discipline from the top down. I appreciate there are not a lot of "old farts" remaining in RFU HQ right now to drive policy and direction so the onus and responsibility must fall on the Management team there in NZ plus Rob Andrew.

But lets consider the other "Home Nations" and their success thus far;

Scotland were very unlucky to have been beaten in the final group match and if they had won, how would it have affected their result had they played against France? Id like to think it would be a Wales v Scotland Semi-final.

Ireland; had a magnificent group stage but had to put in two magnificent performances in their final two games that their tanks were less than full when they met Wales. A great shame as they also improved from their first game until their last, congrats Boys..

Wales; sorry to admit, have played and IMPROVED magnificently thus far and it is an endorsement to WG that he has meticulously prepared them since the end of the 6N and also to the entire squad plus the potential squad members for their diligence and hard work at the two training and conditioning sessions at a fantastic facility in Poland which has vastly improved their fitness physically and mentally, they are 150% confident as a squad and take the field ready to play for 100 minutes flat out. They deserve to be where they are right now and I pray and hope that they go the whole hog and bring the spoils back to Wales, this has been enhanced by an admitted no-drinking policy prior to and during the competition.

England were their own worse enemies both on and off the pitch, their lack of discipline on it is measurable and comparable only to a 4th Division South 6th team of veterans, and their lack of discipline off it must have been a grave effect on those amongst the squad who werent caught up in any of the above.

So it leaves me to commiserate with the Scots for suffering defeat to a team when they didnt fully deserve it and would have put in a far better performance on Saturday against the French, equally to commiserate with the Irish for suffering defeat to an absolutely incredible Welsh side but to take nothing away from their performance and to wish the Welsh Squad and Management the best of successes in your final two games. But to ask all fans to get behind the Boyo`s over the next two weeks to see them through, leave the animosity for the HC and Magners...

Go for it....

Nothing went wrong, France are better than you, your not a great team. not wumming, just saying.
There is a lot wrong with English rugby at the moment, top to bottom, but it certainly didnt 'go wrong' during the tournament.

What went wrong. England didn't take it seriously. There performance on the pitch was best indicated by their behaviour off it. Compare that with Wales at this RWC and it is embarassing; Eng behaved the way you would expect wales to behave. There are too many primadonnas in the squad and not enough mature leadership, far too many naive fools who exposed themselves and their colleagues to press scrutiny and allowed the story to become the farce not the rugby. The buck for that has to stop with mj.

England won the 6Ns trying to play expansive Rugby,with Toby Food at 10.
For the RWC they reverted to type,forward domination,kicking,defence,goal kicking.
There defence was the best in the RWC,conceding only one try,they were in
the group.
With the least creative teams in the RWC,they were lucky to scrape past
Argentina,and Scotland.
Johnny Wilkinson has many qualities defence,and goal kicking especially but
he is not the man to set a backline flowing.
Martin Johnson is not a coach,holding no certificate at any level,but has done a reasonable job as manager.
Pity Ashton was`nt able to work with him instead of shamefully being squeezed out.

latino-flanker wrote:
Scotland were very unlucky to have been beaten in the final group match and if they had won, how would it have affected their result had they played against France? Id like to think it would be a Wales v Scotland Semi-final.

Even if Ashton hadn't scored at the end, Scotland would still have not gone through. They would have been level with Argentina on 14, and missed out on head to head.

These should all be released from the squad now:

Tindall, Moody, Wilkinson, Shaw, Flutey, Payne,
Wilson, Deacon, Easter, Cueto, Mears, Hape, Thompson

Im all for having experience in the squad - its vital...but NOT when the experienced players are offering absolutely nothing (would any other team play a centre like Tindall who cant pass or create anyting)....and in many cases such as Moody and Johnny are bringing the performances down.

These players now need to be replaced by younger hungry players who have ability.

The biggest thing for me though is the coaches.

Good bye Mr Wells, etc etc. We need a forwards coach who can get us playing powerful rugby again...not slow, ponderous, predicatable rubbish.

PS....

My other question....are we turning our pack into a lightweight softie....in an attempt to be "athletic"

Wheres the hardnosed forwards who wont take a step backwards......they're missing!

mystiroakey wrote:not really bothered about trivial press- however the press didnt help our performances- which were shocking

Although everything gets blown out of proportion - it's the players that caused the press stories not the other way around. For the players to then blame the press showed a lack of accountability.

England have some very good players that haven't performed and some that have reached the end of the road. I hope the coaches don't confuse the two groups.

radelven. excellent post, and good squads - not much I'd argue about there.

Most important and most disappointing thing for me in the WC was the selection policy, both of teams and overall squad. Given a tiny bit of pressure, we reverted to type. Selection issues for a WC quarter, lack of plan b. Easter for Haskell?????

What went wrong:

1) Poor discipline off the field.....i for one believe that they should have been on a no drink policy through out the tournament.

2) Poor selections....Haskell dropped? Johnny continued to play? 1 inside centre in the squad etc etc....

3) Question marks over what the coaches are doing...

4) Too many old "experienced "players offering absolutely nothing.

5) Too high expectations....too many club players - NO world class players.

radelven can really argue with that although I would keep Armitage in the squad, but the fat cats at the RFU will still see the £££'s rolling in from ticket and shirt sales so I fear nothing will change.

I remember prior to the tournament that MJ was reported to have stated that he would have no hard & fast rules regarding player behaviour but would rely on the player’s self-discipline.

That policy obviously back fired

Compare our rugby and cricket at present. Cricket is a smoothly oiled machine where the board, the manager and the coaches are all singing from the same hymn sheet. Rugby is not. The board is a disgrace, the coaches inadequate - I can only imagine they've stayed in place so long as part of someone's empire - and the results predictable.

Without decent senior management supporting the present and planning the future we won't get far. We haven't had decent management since 2003 and the results show it. Cricket over the same period has climbed to the top of the rankings.

Cowshot wrote:Compare our rugby and cricket at present. Cricket is a smoothly oiled machine where the board, the manager and the coaches are all singing from the same hymn sheet. Rugby is not. The board is a disgrace, the coaches inadequate - I can only imagine they've stayed in place so long as part of someone's empire - and the results predictable.

Without decent senior management supporting the present and planning the future we won't get far. We haven't had decent management since 2003 and the results show it. Cricket over the same period has climbed to the top of the rankings.

Good comparison. And the annoying thing is we know we have the players. The majority of the young Wales squad have been soundly beaten at J6Ns and JWC levels by successive England sides, but something is going wrong when they reach senior level.
As much as I hate to say it....is it unfamiliarity that regional/provincial rugby appears to have the advantage at?

As much as I hate to say it....is it unfamiliarity that regional/provincial rugby appears to have the advantage at?

I don't think so. We are club based and I don't think regions would "take". I support Leicester Tigers. I'd have no interest whatever in an East Midlands Muppets side. Or South West London Plonkers, which would be my local side.

Before we even think of such a radical restructuring, let's just see if some decent senior management and good coaches can make something of the considerable talents we have.

IronMike wrote:Well their performances wont be remembered, but at least your players seemed to have a good time and made a few videos for youtube.

Can't help think they'd have had a better time had they focused on rugby more and on drinking, bungy jumping and swimming in the harbour less. The Welsh players seem to be enjoying themselves, and there hasn't been a golf buggy in sight.

For me it's difficult to see what big changes England need to make. On three times now since last autumn - South Africa, Ireland and now France – our pack just hasn't had the aggression and intensity that it should on the really big ocasions.

I actually don't think our performance against France was as awful as some have made out – we really could have won. But we left ourselves with too much to do after being caught cold at the beginning of the game AGAIN.

So how do we solve that problem? I don't know! For a start we can have Corbisiero in over Stevens as others have said. I also think it was a mistake starting Deacon instead of Lawes. And our backrow is really too lightweight. We need more aggression in there. Where is our Ferris? Our O'brien? For a start I'd like to see Wood in instead of Moody. And then I suppose we need to start praying for an English Harinordoquy to appear from somewhere.

On top of all this I think we need a new forwards coach. Wells has had long enough and the pack just don't to be seem to be getting any better. I'd keep Johnson though. We have done some good things under his management. We don't want to have to start rebuilding form the bottom up again.

I think the pack, particularly the front five don't have the competition for places that encourage those players to be at their best.

If you take Thompson and Shaw out the equation due to their age, who is pressuring the best of the young talent like Cole, Hartley, Corbisiero and Lawes...?

Players need to be pushed by other players to perform at their best.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:. Where is our Ferris? Our O'brien? For a start I'd like to see Wood in instead of Moody. And then I suppose we need to start praying for an English Harinordoquy to appear from somewhere.

What England need as a back row is what Wales have not Ireland.

England need a warburton, a Lydiate and a faletau.

In Wales we can't understand why the rfu have ignored ben Morgan as a number 8. He is exactly what they need.

Also to find a decent openside. Not two average blindsides.

England need to go back to brass tacks. Pick a pack of big 35 year old plus men and backs that are good at executing pre planned moves and at defence with a decent kicker and adjust tactics accordingly. It's not rocket science.

What England need as a back row is what Wales have not Ireland.

England need a warburton, a Lydiate and a faletau.

In Wales we can't understand why the rfu have ignored ben Morgan as a number 8. He is exactly what they need.

Also to find a decent openside. Not two average blindsides.

Well, it would be nice to have a Warburton as well as a Ferris! But I do think the mian problem we have there is the lack of aggression and dynamism.

Team for next game.....

1 Corbisieru / Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Lawes - Needs a couple of big performances...
5 Palmer
6 Robshaw
7 Wood
8 Fearns / Narraway / ??

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Wade / Sharples
12 Tuilagi / Turner Hall
13 Lowe / Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

It's also nonsense to not care about the 6N. Pick the strongest team available to you so you win a couple of games, get the wagon rolling and then look to blood a few new players once the team is settled in winning ways.

I heard that Tuilagi jumped off a ferry in New Zealand. This could not be true, is it?

Was the ferry moving at the time?? Could he have been sucked into the rotor blades?

This is madness.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:

What England need as a back row is what Wales have not Ireland.

England need a warburton, a Lydiate and a faletau.

In Wales we can't understand why the rfu have ignored ben Morgan as a number 8. He is exactly what they need.

Also to find a decent openside. Not two average blindsides.

Well, it would be nice to have a Warburton as well as a Ferris! But I do think the mian problem we have there is the lack of aggression and dynamism.

Trust me mate it is Lydiate who is the goldenchild of that welsh back row.

He stopped ferris, SOB and Headlip allowing the other welsh boys to create and turn over.

England have to take any tournament seriously, however too often it is used as a reason not to pick younger up-and-coming players e.g. “this is an important game and this is not the time to bring in young / inexperienced players”.

I hate that statement if a player is good enough then he (or she) is old enough and there is only one way to gain international experience i.e. playing.

"It's also nonsense to not care about the 6N. Pick the strongest team available to you so you win a couple of games, get the wagon rolling and then look to blood a few new players once the team is settled in winning ways.."

I totally agree...but WHAT IS the strongest team? Many of the old guys were woeful - Moody, Johnny, others have lost their spots...Hartley, Lawes etc.

We have a young squad and team so keep going with the core...but i do think come the 6n we need one or debutants....at 12...8 etc

I totally agree...but WHAT IS the strongest team? Many of the old guys were woeful - Moody, Johnny, others have lost their spots...Hartley, Lawes etc.

Sorry, that information will cost you (or more pertinently the RFU) upwards of £500K pa.

Im game...i can do it.....gimme a chance....go on go on go on.....

The post mortem?

We didn't play well often enough. Selection and tactics got confused. Our forwards aren't the typical powerful pack we are used to. We went onto the France game with only one guy who could take the ball with any sort of pace and power into traffic (Manu T) - Haskell and Tindall's absences were obvious, as by the second half the French were just linig up waiting for him.

Successes?
The good back 3 looks to have become a back 4, with Manu the swim champ being the biggest shining star of our performances up to his impromptu dive. Ashton, Cueto and to a lesser extent Foden also shone at times.
Defence was generally pretty good with the exception of the second quarter against France - you can't win games like this by missing and falling off tackles.
Other than these, not much to get really excited about.

Negatives
Discipline - you can't put points on the board when you are forever being pinged and pushed back deep into your defensive territory.
Scrum - Stevens in particular got outclassed and gave away a lot of penalties. Corbisiero is so much stronger in the set piece.
Breakdown - uncertainty seemed to be the order of the day. Do I go in and clear out, or rely on the guys already there? Result was slow ball and turned over possession.
Inaccuracy - Even at the end of the first half against France we created two potential try scoring opportunities, but the final pass just didn't find its target (one stopping the runner, the other over Ashton's head). Similarly, the lineout throws weren't great, the set moves didn't quite work and we kept having the ball carrier collide with a dummy runner. All the sort of small detail things that separate the best from the rest.

Where now?
I have no strong opinions on whether MJ stays or goes, but it's time for Wells and Ford to make way for some new ideas.

I think it's the end of the road (at least in the nesxt 12 months) for the following:
Sheridan (I think he's just totally broken now)
Thompson
Deacon
Palmer
Shaw
Moody
Easter
Wilkinson
Hape
Flutey
Tindall
Cueto

SO starting in the first 6Ns game, I'd like to see something like:
Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Attwood
Croft
Wood
?????????????????? Can we find an English grandmother for Parisse?

Youngs
Flood
Ashton
Barritt/ 12Trees
Tuillagi
Sharples
Foden

I don't always agree with Tom Fordyce but he does make some reasonably balanced points here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tomfordyce/2011/10/where_england_went_so_wrong_an.html

Good article....

Wells needs to GO GO GO!!!

And also tell Toby FLood that whilst offloading is a great thing to do....overloading it for the sake of it to anyone whos around you is not. Was it 3 or 4 times he did it and lost posession everytime.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Good article....

Wells needs to GO GO GO!!!

And also tell Toby FLood that whilst offloading is a great thing to do....overloading it for the sake of it to anyone whos around you is not. Was it 3 or 4 times he did it and lost posession everytime.

At least he had a go. Supporting runners should have been busting a gut to get onto those half breaks rather than hanging back expecting another ball to ground, step over, stop, secure slow ball.

Yes he had a go and i praised him for that, but he needed to be a little cleverer to SEE that when no one was there....keep hold.

Did Bath BTGOG forget those macho heroes James 'The Brand' Haskell, Dylan 'Plain Moron' Hartley and Chris 'Flat- track Bully' Ashton berating/abusing the overly aggressive chambermaid in the hotel - I think he did. Such hard men !

Yawn. Stick to your old firm bigotry 21st/Ivan.

Wum, end of

Does anybody remember the hushed up player power incident in the 09 6N? The players told Jonno they wanted more freedom to run?

As ye reep so shall ye sow.

I like MJ - it's hard not to when he's won the RWC and I like the way he 'tells it straight'. I think he's deeply passionate about the game and cares about England.

But, he should never have got the job in the first place. He may turn out to be a fantastic coach/manager but giving someone the top job in the country when they have zero experience is in no way a good option. Can you imagine Alan Shearer being given the England football job without ever managing a club? Great players do not always make great coaches.