Every Cloud...

I cheer myself after England's gutless display with the following....

These players will never be seen in an England shirt again:
Steve Thompson
Louis Deacon
Lewis Moody
Nick Easter
Richard Wigglesworth
Jonny Wilkinson
Mike Tindall
Shontayne Hape
Mark Cueto.

The generation where basic skills of run, pass, catch seemed too much.

And now I feel better again.

Seems I'm alone then!

Only one in your list that I disagree with is Easter. I have never been a huge fan of him but the (brief) appearances from him in the WC have shown that he has great ball control skills at the back of the scrum, even when its really bloody pinging around. He is a good carrier of the ball too, only downside is that I dont think he can compare to Haskell when it comes to physicality in the ruck or maul.

For me the one you are MISSING in the list is Mr "how-many-steps-shall-I-run-before-I-pass-the-damn-ball-behind-the-left-ear-of-the-receiver" Youngs. Argh!

I think Wilkinson has at least another 50 caps in him and can't imagine how English Rugby will cope without him!!

Maybe they will actually try and throw the ball about a bit? Who knows!?

I agree totally with the list.

I see what your saying about Easter...and i would probably keep him in the squad as back up....but i think we need to inject some youth.

Tell Bath to play Fearns at 8, and fast track him up. I havent seen how Gray has gone this season at Irish...but he's another potential.

We need a bruiser at 6 (Robshaw) now aswell. Croft for all his skills is not physical enough (in my eyes anyway).

Also check out the youngsters - Wallace at 7 for quins has been a revelation. Too young?? No - take him to a squad get together and see how he gets on.

Bit harsh to include Wigglesworth with those lot. He looked a lot better than Youngs.

beshocked wrote:Bit harsh to include Wigglesworth with those lot. He looked a lot better than Youngs.

really?

I actually though he took longer that Youngs to distribute the ball, and I didnt think that was possible (except for Mike Blair)

JDandfries not sure what game you were watching......I presume you didn't happen to catch the England vs Scotland game or England vs France game.

Youngs was awful in both. Admittedly he had a strong cameo appearance vs Argentina but that's it.

Considering Youngs played quite well against the French including conjuring the first try through a mazy run from a tapped penalty and then a succession of carefully developed passing which utilised the forwards and crucially not releasing the ball to Wilkinson. He's getting unfairly slammed in my opinion. I think Wigglesworth looked good for a chunk of the tournament but was a non-entity vs France and we'd have been better keeping Youngs on.

Steve Thompson
Louis Deacon
Lewis Moody
Nick Easter
Richard Wigglesworth
Jonny Wilkinson
Mike Tindall
Shontayne Hape
Mark Cueto.

I agree with some of those but Easter, Deacon, Thompson and Wigglesworth may well feel hard done by. Deacon kept the lineout going and did a good deal of the tight work, Thompson outplayed Hartley on every occasion, Easter showed control at the base that was sadly lacking with the Brand and Wigglesworth may have lacked spark but his tactical kicking and his passing were both good. I'd like to Stevens and Chuter (he wasn't in the final squad but was in the 40 man squad) added to that list.

beshocked wrote:JDandfries not sure what game you were watching......I presume you didn't happen to catch the England vs Scotland game or England vs France game.

Youngs was awful in both. Admittedly he had a strong cameo appearance vs Argentina but that's it.

i didn't say Youngs was any good, (i think he is terrible) but Wrigglesworth isn't the answer, and IMO although a better passer of the ball, he is slower at getting ball away that Youngs

Can you add Matt 'how many penalties can I give away infront of the posts in 10 minutes' Stevens to the list?

Metal Tiger wrote:Can you add Matt 'how many penalties can I give away infront of the posts in 10 minutes' Stevens to the list?

hahah

although i think it needs be changed to Matt 'how many penalties can I give away infront of the posts in 8 minutes' Stevens

I dont think Youngs is terrible, not had his best shirt in the white shirt though recently. But on form he has been very very good for England, think alot will change in the England team by the time the six nations kicks off but youngs will be there.. Look at Mike Phillips for Wales, he has been very poor for Wales for a while.. Now hes turned into an absolute machine.

Basically its not Youngs fault, its the whole teams.

Think the remainder of the Old guard will be gone now(Wilkinson, Tindall, Cueto, Moody), its a shame as they were such good players in their day.. Shouldnt have had to fade away like this.

I presume Tom Palmer is out aswell as he plays in France?

Maybe England needs more youngsters anyway, look at Wales and Australia.. The fulcrum of these teams is in their early 20s. Maybe thats the way the games changing? Maybe the old and grizzly only belong in the tight 5.

Please add Youngs to that list, it was like watching a clueless school boy play scrum half for England.

Too much too soon

tomhughesnice I agree its the entire teams fault, and I dont want to lay it too thick on one player, but even a (French) wife who knows not much about the game says to me "that number 9's passing is causing you loads of problems" then you have to wonder. He was a talent, but something about his game is disrupting the entire line now (probably managements fault for crushing his confidence and over training him). For me its mostly his inaccurate passes, or worse still the accurate passes that occur after he has taken 2-3 strides. Just to be sure that number 10 or definitely number 12 gets absolutely FLATTENED on the first contact by a world class opposing number 8. only takes one or two of those to happen in a game and then 10/12 start to have less confidence and the 10-15 start doing wierd things when under pressure. Bring back Care (for now)

Bring back Care (for now)

Trouble is, Care had started taking those two three steps putting his 10 under pressure as well. I think we have to look at the coaches.

It's interesting that both Care and Youngs both started to struggle when paired with Wilkinson...

I'd like to see England mix things up a bit for the 6N, something like;

Corbisiero/Sheridan, Hartley, Cole
Lawes, Parling
Croft, Easter, Wood
Youngs/Care, Flood
Barritt, Manu
Short, Foden, Ashton

Bench; Thompson, Wilson (underrated), Palmer, Robshaw, Care/Youngs, Hodgson (where's the young 10s?), D Armitage.

Would give the midfield a vicious defence as well as pace, power and good hands in attack. Pace and some (albeit slightly limited) footballing skills at the back. Mobile but still good all round pack. Start to look at younger players but keep the core of the team. I would like to see Homer fast tracked to the Saxons as his massive boot plus all round skill set could see him be a great player in the future. Similarly England need a fully fledged openside so Wallace of Quins needs to be looked at and Welch at Falcons as well, not nearly savvy enough at the breakdown during the RWC.

THe fact is RWC 2011 except for the hype was`nt a realistic bet by2015
they could be.
Most of the over 30`s want pruning,as to taking forever clearing from the rucks.
Nearly every scrum half in the RWC suffered the same disease,quick service from the base is the key to unlocking defences.
Selection for the game plan seemed confused,maybe most of the team thought France were finished before they ran on the field.

"Similarly England need a fully fledged openside so Wallace of Quins needs to be looked at and Welch at Falcons as well, not nearly savvy enough at the breakdown during the RWC.."

Yeah i mentioned this above Sam....we need to address the balance in the back row....big time.

Go back and watch Youngs in the second half against France - he stopped crabbing about and started firing the passes away as he did when he was introduced to the side. Suddenly we had some go forward and looked a threat. I was surprised when he was subbed, because he seemed to have really upped the tempo of the game in the preceding 15 minutes, and Wigglesworth just doesn't have the same ability to do.

GF
I think the problems at the breakdown relate to more than just the personnel in the back row - our forwards looked a bit lost as to whether their job was to go in and clear, to stand off for the next drive or to work their way out wider and so support the next breakdown. The resulting hesitation was killing all our attacking momentum and making life hard for the half backs. Time for a change of forwards coach and a change of emphasis in the forwards. Once that happens, we can start looking at whether we need to find a proper specialist 7 or whether Wood (for example) should play there in a similar way to Wallace/SOB for Ireland.

D-Half..

Aw i totally agree...and you will probably notice on many of these threads i am screaming for Wells to be unceremoniously booted from his role. What is he actually getting paid for...its obviously not to create a powerful dynamic ball winning pack.

dummy half I must say congratulations to youngs for not being £$%^ for the entire match. Just the vast majority. Youngs is overrated. It's a shame people can't accept he was rubbish overall in the world cup. He's a good player but like many other England players in the world cup he was awful bar that cameo against a knackered side.

Comment on Deacon above that he did "unseen work". Erm.... He was on the pitch to do one job, call the lineouts. 5 mins in, 5 metres out, and he calls the obvious short lineout to Croft, stolen...instead of the attacking option of tail to open up the pitch and provide options, along with quick service to the backs. Game went downhill from there.

As for a backrow of Croft, Easter, Wood. That combination would be obliterated by Ireland, Wales, and potentially Scotland. Croft is fortunate not to have made my original list such was his cowardly performance. Get involved man! Carry some ball, make some tackles. Ruck, anyone?

And the selection of Parling????

emack2 wrote:THe fact is RWC 2011 except for the hype was`nt a realistic bet by2015
they could be.
Most of the over 30`s want pruning,as to taking forever clearing from the rucks.
Nearly every scrum half in the RWC suffered the same disease,quick service from the base is the key to unlocking defences.
Selection for the game plan seemed confused,maybe most of the team thought France were finished before they ran on the field.

-------------------------------------------------------

International rugby, like Soviet economic planing, runs on a 4 year plan, cos that's how often World Cups are. If you plan for 8 years, many of the people you start the process with will 'need pruning' when the 8 years are up. England have massive resources compared to, for example, Wales. How long do you need, for goodness' sake?

Youngs has showed he has the class and talent at this level, I'm not sure what's been going on since his injury, his temperament is certainly suspect. However Youngs and Flood need a lot of game time together playing behind a settled back row. In Foden, Ashton, Tuilagi and Armitage England have a decent backline if they can get a good centre alongside Mr T. IMO Sharples and Simpson should have had more game time as well. 2nd rows are not a problem for England with lots of options and the same goes for the front row. They just need to get a settled side and take it from there. They seem to be playing with too much pressure on them. I also think they need a complete revamp with the coaching team - I'm all for standing up for my players but this is the pinnacle of every rugby players career and MJ allowed it all to get out of hand which was a bit naive to say the least.

Actually i disagree about Youngs. I think he is an excellent player, who has suffered in confdence playing within a poor squad.
Once he gets back to Welford Road he'll get his confidence back.

Bath...
Thats the problem with Croft though..he's not that type of player. Hes fast, athletic, great in the lineout....but is he a luxury that we cant afford at the moment. Would Robshaw better suit us...offering an abrasive ball carrying forward who is great at the breakdown?

beshocked
I've no problem with saying Youngs was awful against Scotland and not much better against France for the first half. It was fairly obvious that he was rusty and lacking match sharpness (after all, how many breaks did he make?). My only point was that he seemed to have upped his game in the second half and so subbing him at that time seemed slightly like a case of following the script rather than doing what was best for the team.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Bath...
Thats the problem with Croft though..he's not that type of player. Hes fast, athletic, great in the lineout....but is he a luxury that we cant afford at the moment. Would Robshaw better suit us...offering an abrasive ball carrying forward who is great at the breakdown?

Yes, that's exactly what we need. Our lack of runners and quick ball is hurting us, both areas which Croft does not get involved with.

How has Fearns been doing at bath so far....does he need to be brought into the equation...

Solid start. Unfortunately Bath are playing absolute rubbish at the moment, so little to shout about.

So do we go for the quins back row of

6 Robshaw
7 Wallace
8 Easter

or do we need to have Wood in there at 7

Geordiefalcon that's the problem Youngs hasn't been in form for a while now. He looked like a rabbit caught in headlights in the AP final.

Dummy half one sniping run doesn't mean he upped his game. It was just one good run. Wigglesworth played better than Youngs so it was correct.

Wood, like Moody and Robshaw, and various others is not an out and out 7. We can't keep shoehorning players into vital positions.

Easter is finished. His 1-2 yard gains with ball in hand are nothing compared to his lack of fitness and inability to hit a breakdown in time.

So what are we looking at then...

Options
6 Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Fearns,
7 Wallace, Welch, Saul, Fourie,
8 Narraway, Crane (when fit), Guest, Gray,

Any others?

Thats the problem with Croft though..he's not that type of player. Hes fast, athletic, great in the lineout....but is he a luxury that we cant afford at the moment. Would Robshaw better suit us...offering an abrasive ball carrying forward who is great at the breakdown?

Robshaw doesn't offer much at the breakdown though. Great defensive player and he certainly would add something abrasive to the backrow. I would disagree on losing Croft because despite the slightly tedious comments about him not pulling his weight he was about the only member of the backrow that did. His covering tackles are an asset and whilst agree we need someone more abrasive in the backrow I don't think it's at 6 the problem lies. I would consider Wood as a 7 (that's where he lines up for Saints) and maybe give Robshaw a run there whilst Wallace and Welch come into the Saxons. We could do with Saull finding some form as well.

And the selection of Parling?

Yes, you moan about the inefficiency and the lack of mobile ball carrying forwards and then mock the selection of a dynamic lineout lock. Do you work for Bath? Seems very much like the Bath logic?

Dummy half one sniping run doesn't mean he upped his game. It was just one good run. Wigglesworth played better than Youngs so it was correct..

Against Scotland certainly, against France Youngs was starting to look dangerous (having engineered the first try) and then was removed for Wigglesworth who was non-existant in the biggest game of his life. Wigglesworth really didn't bring anything to the table, he forced the game and gave passes without looking (including firing one at Flood's back). Youngs may have had a poor tournament but he was slowly improving. I still hold one of Englands fatal mistakes was pairing Youngs and Wilkinson, at no point did it work.

Get a top class coach and his team in to shake England up. Hire some decent pros to the RFU, get rid of the prl focus on international set up not making club chairmen happy, don't let the tigers run English rugby...

There are lots of things to do...