Irish New Zealand Tour 2012

First topic message reminder :

In just 9 months time, the Irish rugby team will be heading back to the Land of the Long White Cloud. Ireland will take on New Zealand in a 3 match Test series and this will surely put our resources to the Test. There is no doubt we shall see at least a handful of retirements post World Cup and more will be phased out of the squad sooner rather than later.

It a punishing tour to have at the end of a World Cup year BUT plenty can be learned from it if done well. Hopefully we shall see 2-3 midweek games scheduled along with the Tests so that we can see some of the fringe players in the senior environment playing in hostile territories in a green jersey.

With that in mind, I would choose a squad of 37 that looked something like this, though I am fully aware that retirements, injuries loss of form and some bolters will come through in the interim:

Prop: Cian Healy, Paddy McCalister, Tom Court, Mike Ross, Jamie Hagan, John Andress

Hooker: Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Mike Sherry

Lock: Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Donncha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner, Ian Nagle

Back Row: Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip, Rhys Ruddock, Peter O'Mahoney, Dominic Ryan, Kevin McLaughlin

Scrum Half: Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Tomás O'Leary

Out Half: Johnny Sexton, Ian Keatley

Centre: Brian O'Driscoll, Nevin Spence, Fergus McFadden, Luke Marshall

Back Three: Keith Earls, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney, Felix Jones

I don't see that they would personally. If they do it would be to England they'd head not to another province. Leinster and Munster both have good centres and Connacht are too small for a player like Spence/Cave.

Its just they have three centers there with Marshall and the only way to play all of them is to put Spence on the wing. If all three make it one will be stuck on the bench or just rotating. On the other hand it could well be that competing will bring the best out of them. Hope its the latter.

Honestly of the three, I don't see Cave making the cut. He hasn't got the pace for an outside centre. He has a great rugby brain, great defence and is a quality player. However his pace would be a liability on the international stage.

Yeah I would tend to agree with you on that, I could however see him as a 12 where his pace would not be such a hinderance. The problem there however is that Marshall could be the Ireland 12 for the next World Cup in the making. Thats why I was thinking one of Spence and Cave could move. Marshall should probably been put in that too but I think that guy has huge talent as a 12 that it should not be wasted. Its a tricky one.

I also think Cave could make a great 12, but the Ulster management have sort of got him and Spence a bit muddled up in my view..

Not this Cave, Marshall and Spence craic again. I don't know why people want to create problems where there isn't one.

If Ulster want to compete with the best sides in the Magners and Europe then they need competition for places and depth. Paddy Wallace won't be around much longer and we need all of Spence, Cave and Marshall.

Marshall will get his chances, he's only 20 and still learning and he isn't going to be Irelands 12 until he's the best 12 in Ulster. He's started 2 games this season and hasn't played well enough to shift Spence or Cave yet.

Ulster need to be more concerned with winning a few games than blooding youngsters or we might find ourselves out of the HEC next season.

Re: Cave, I think he is the quickest of the 3 and right now the best outside centre although Spence for me is a better all round player with greater potential.

red_stag wrote:Maybe Stand - I can't I've ever see this innate talent people keep speaking about. He strikes me as a very talented schools player who has built up a well of expectation. Reminds me a bit of Andrew Burke who played Celtic League for Munster and did the whole Ireland underage scene.

He was playing for Wasps 'A' last I heard and I refereed him a few weeks ago playing for Young Munster. Still only 21 - a serious talent in his teens but couldn't bring it to next level. Thats how I see Jackson.

This is a bit unfair as he's only 19. We'll make the judgement in a couple of years time.

roddersm wrote:Not this Cave, Marshall and Spence craic again. I don't know why people want to create problems where there isn't one.

If Ulster want to compete with the best sides in the Magners and Europe then they need competition for places and depth. Paddy Wallace won't be around much longer and we need all of Spence, Cave and Marshall.

Marshall will get his chances, he's only 20 and still learning and he isn't going to be Irelands 12 until he's the best 12 in Ulster. He's started 2 games this season and hasn't played well enough to shift Spence or Cave yet.

Ulster need to be more concerned with winning a few games than blooding youngsters or we might find ourselves out of the HEC next season.

Re: Cave, I think he is the quickest of the 3 and right now the best outside centre although Spence for me is a better all round player with greater potential.

I find that comment extraordinary. I think Spence has been average in his last 3 outings (more down to Ulsters overuse of him though) but the onky thing of note i can remember was 1 half break against treviso and a yellow card against the dragons. I thought Marshall easily outperformed him in those two games although both were on a hiding to nothing behind that pack. If anything those games showed the need of a proper 12 as Marshsall was the one breaking the gainline by stepping and acceleration.

I think McL set out his stall to have the most physical midfield he could until Paddy returns and i dont think anything Marshall did was going to change his mind

If I was Ulster, I'd be keeping all three centres.

Jackson is still only 19 and has started more than a handful of games for Ulster which is certainly a lot more than Burke who go on in the last few minutes of a dead rubber Magners League match. Jackson is still only young and I think he will take time to adjust to this level but at least he is getting consistent game time and look how long it took Sexton to come through.

If all 3 are that good then at least 1 will be on ireland duty a fair bit you would imagine anyway

Stand fair enough. I think you are being harsh on Spence but I would welcome seeing Marshall get a run.

i think Ulster are being harsh on spence rodders. they are constantly shovelling him poor ball and asking him to drag 2 and 3 guys over the gainline. It is so easy to read. It reminds me of last season when we constantly used Wannenburg despite everyone knowing we were going to use him. Look what happened against the Dragons when we hit Marshall instead he made the break because the focus was on spence and it left him 1 on 1. I dont mean to be as harsh on spence as i am but i worry the ulster coaching/gameplan isnt properly developing his talents

Stand one thing I would say is that it's pretty hard to judge any of the centres this season as the half backs have been pretty poor. We don't have a great balance in the backrow either and our scrum hasn't been solid.

I'd like to see how our backs function when they get a bit better platform before I would start calling for changes. Certainly Spence's workrate, physicality and commitment haven't faultered and to me that is what you want in a player when things aren't going well.

It's very hard to judge your centres when you are on the back foot and sometimes you just need a player to roll up their sleeves and for me that is what Spence has done, Cave too.

roddersm wrote:Stand one thing I would say is that it's pretty hard to judge any of the centres this season as the half backs have been pretty poor. We don't have a great balance in the backrow either and our scrum hasn't been solid.

I'd like to see how our backs function when they get a bit better platform before I would start calling for changes. Certainly Spence's workrate, physicality and commitment haven't faultered and to me that is what you want in a player when things aren't going well.

It's very hard to judge your centres when you are on the back foot and sometimes you just need a player to roll up their sleeves and for me that is what Spence has done, Cave too.

Dont really disagree with any of that rodders. I still think the fact that we have seen relatively little of Gilroy shows our midfield isnt creative at present. Our major problem is most definitely the pack though. Need Muller back to crack some heads. He is our forwards coach after all

I think most of our outside backs have all done really well in difficult circumstances. There is no platform there right now.

I think we have all sorts of good combinations in the backs and we will need the all at various stages over the season to be competitive.

I really am looking forward to seeing a lot more of Marshall and eventually the backline being built around him. I think that will evolve naturally over time though and it's not something we need to fast track.

I do think Spence and Cave is a potent midfield if they can get better platform but time will tell.

What are peoples thoughts on McKinney. I prefer him to Jackson

I prefer Jackson stag. Mckinney isnt a runnning threat which you need at the top level

Nor sure where the idea that McKinney 'isn't a running threat' comes from, as at Campbell he was known as a running FH who could kick. IMO he is a very controlled and complete player but lacks the X factor of Jackson. Paddy has a great read on the game and thinks on his feet whereas James tends to stick to the script a bit too much. McKinney has more to his game than O'Connor though and I'd place him in a similar bracket to Keatley at that age.

Personally I'd like to see McKinney play scrum half a bit. He is a good passer, has a break and can kick - abilities that are largely missing in PMarshall, Porter, Heaney and McIlroy...! He would be much more likely to short circuit his progress into the team if he put on a 9 shirt.

roddersm wrote:I think most of our outside backs have all done really well in difficult circumstances. There is no platform there right now.

I think we have all sorts of good combinations in the backs and we will need the all at various stages over the season to be competitive.

I really am looking forward to seeing a lot more of Marshall and eventually the backline being built around him. I think that will evolve naturally over time though and it's not something we need to fast track.

I do think Spence and Cave is a potent midfield if they can get better platform but time will tell.

Sorry Rodders, but I do think Spence/Cave together is lacking a bit in creativity. Maybe swapping them around would do better but having those two play together I think isn't as good as other options. Spence is definitely faster than Cave btw, Spence also plays wing and people have noted that Cave isn't the fastest centre.

The Great Aukster wrote:Nor sure where the idea that McKinney 'isn't a running threat' comes from, as at Campbell he was known as a running FH who could kick. IMO he is a very controlled and complete player but lacks the X factor of Jackson. Paddy has a great read on the game and thinks on his feet whereas James tends to stick to the script a bit too much. McKinney has more to his game than O'Connor though and I'd place him in a similar bracket to Keatley at that age.

Personally I'd like to see McKinney play scrum half a bit. He is a good passer, has a break and can kick - abilities that are largely missing in PMarshall, Porter, Heaney and McIlroy...! He would be much more likely to short circuit his progress into the team if he put on a 9 shirt.

I will bow to your superior knowledge of him Aukster but i have seen McKinney on a couple of occasions for Ulster (i think it was twice) and for the irish u-20's and not once have i seen him offer a running threat. Jackson i would agree looks much more elusive