Haye - On Ringside Tonight

First topic message reminder :

Just to tell you all Haye will be talking about his possible retirement or possible fight with Vit later on tonight.
Tune in should be interesting if he hasn't already stated...
Reckon he's retiring or no?

Hello



This is interesting..

Your turn Coxy

Best thread ever.

tcribb wrote:I'm particularly bemused by you give Hatton no credit for his footwork, you don't give away reach and size against Mayweather and win 3 rounds without having fantastic footwork...

Ridiculous comment

You think that Hatton had good footwork? Was he dazzling with his feet when walk in straight lines straight into range?

And the scorecards and most fans have a different scorecard. Mayweather was on the way to a 119-111 scorecard from memory as they were all (or 2 of them) were 89-81. Apologies if my maths is wrong, but a complete shutout would be 120............. lost 3 rounds in the 9 completed? Are you saying he lost 3 rounds in total across the 3 scorecards?

Haye barely got hit for most of his career, that's a combination of footwork, head movement and balance. Hatton didn't have much in those depts when it came to avoiding shots.

Their styles don't compare. Haye may have been harder to tag, but he also looked useless when a tear up was necassary and didn't seem to have any concept of parrying or other simple fundamentals.

Can we not just accept they were two good fighters with different styles/qualities/strengths? Johnson and Dempsey were different but still great heavyweights, no point throwing toys out the pram.

Did he walk in straight lines ? You can't have a career like Hattons having poor footwork, Emmanuel Stewart commented before the Mayweather fight what made it a tough fight for Floyd is Hattons feet they were quick and he had the ability to close the distance very quickly, you can point the a lot of flaws at Ricky but his footwork was one of his best attributes I really don't understand your theory.

Maybes you like different attributes in fighters, but Haye wasn't an extremely talented fighter a wild man who couldn't put punches together meant soon as he faced a decent fighter with a jab he was to come a cropper, Pinklon Thomas, Bruno would've all had a picnic against Haye.

Comparing Haye and Hatton is quite difficult, as has been mentioned Ricky never had to fight at the size disadvantage Haye had at HW - but then with the exception of Wlad, Hayes HW opposition was pretty poor - the only thing valuev, Ruiz & Audley had in their favour was size.

Ricky was fairly crude but not as bad as some are making out. There's nothing wrong with a pressure/mauling style, plenty of ATG's were that type of fighter. Ricky used the left hook quite well to set up his attacks, had a good body offense, decent chin and was strong at the weight (140). I wouldn't say haye was any sort of great or even good technician, he was reliant purely on speed and explosiveness, a predator type fighter with quick hands, power and fairly evasive, but there was no jab, not amazing feet, not any particular punch variety and definitely stamina issues.

They both had different qualities, they both lost their defining fight(s), but hatton has the better CV, and to slag hatton off while holding haye up as some sort of bastion of technical skill is a flawed argument IMO.

Horses for courses chaps...

Haye, for me was a very good boxer. Elusive, exciting to watch, brought some attention to the heavyweights and in my opinion has proved that Wladimir Klitschko is actually better than we thought.

Haye was a tremendous amateur, fought in other peoples back yards and questionable opponents or not, achieved a number of goals he set himself. His timing, precision, angles and power were impressive.

I enjoyed watching Hatton fights, they were entertaining brawls. But in terms of boxing, it wasn't his style. He was an inside fighter and relied on getting in close, working the body, moving to the head and stalking and walking his opponents down.

Who had better boxing skills? Haye.
Who was the better Inside boxer? Hatton
Who was more fun to watch? That depends on what styles you like to watch...

But comparing Haye's career to Hatton is completely flawed. They BOTH fell short in their biggest and defining fights, but that isn't to say they both didn't have defining moments.

I wish Haye the best, he was fun to watch, I liked his style and although his heavyweight campaign was short lived and he didn't beat Wlad, he still deserves a pat on the back for bringing casual fans into the fold.

Hello gentlemen. I am new to this site, but not to boxing, so I could not resist the temptation of joining you lads on this hotly debated topic. In my humble opinion, some - albeit minority - of you seem to have the words "heart" and "skills" mixed up. Haye is much more skilled than Hatton (it is silly to deny that), but some might say that Hatton had FAR more heart than Haye. It is "that" which I am about to disagree with.

Do you remember David in CW? Does anyone think that Ricky would have displayed the heart that he displayed against PBF and Manny if he was facing the best fighter in the LH division? Because that is the weight difference which David had to face against Wlad. 30lb heavier on the night, 50lb heavier compared to his bedut weight. That's a kind of jump in weight which guys such as Archie Moore faced between his debut and his twilight days, oh, I guess James Toney did too. As brave as Ricky was, I very much doubt that he would have agreed to step in the ring against someone who is that much larger than himself.

PS I meant debut, not bedut, please allow me to point out my own typo before some clever teenagers say this and that.

School Project wrote:Horses for courses chaps...

Haye, for me was a very good boxer. Elusive, exciting to watch, brought some attention to the heavyweights and in my opinion has proved that Wladimir Klitschko is actually better than we thought.

Haye was a tremendous amateur, fought in other peoples back yards and questionable opponents or not, achieved a number of goals he set himself. His timing, precision, angles and power were impressive.

I enjoyed watching Hatton fights, they were entertaining brawls. But in terms of boxing, it wasn't his style. He was an inside fighter and relied on getting in close, working the body, moving to the head and stalking and walking his opponents down.

Who had better boxing skills? Haye.
Who was the better Inside boxer? Hatton
Who was more fun to watch? That depends on what styles you like to watch...

But comparing Haye's career to Hatton is completely flawed. They BOTH fell short in their biggest and defining fights, but that isn't to say they both didn't have defining moments.

I wish Haye the best, he was fun to watch, I liked his style and although his heavyweight campaign was short lived and he didn't beat Wlad, he still deserves a pat on the back for bringing casual fans into the fold.

How many of the casual fans that he excited with his talk did he subsequently turn away from boxing with his performances though. If I was a casual fan and had been enthused to watch the fights he talked about I would have a very sour taste after the fight and probably think UFC was a better more entertaining watch.

Think he probably did more damage than good with the casuals and would say that Hatton actually would have made a lot more casuals boxing fans than Haye did.

Each to his own, but I can't wax lyrical over Haye's skills if the man lacked the fundamentals to enable him to negotiate the jab of an opponent who outreached him.

In recent years it has become fashionable, in some quarters, to dismiss Jack Dempsey as a face first brawler. However, if we watch the early going in the Willard fight we see Dempsey shimmying and showing angles, circling and feinting and trying to draw the Willard lead. Once having drawn it, he cleverly slips it and leaps in to unleash Hell on Earth on the hapless giant. Willard may have been crude, but he did possess a solid chin, decent jab and a right hand from Hell.

Then we can watch Joe Louis against Buddy Baer ( who was the same size as Wlad, ) and see Louis put on a masterclass in slipping inside the Baer jab and firing his own jab back in one movement, or slipping outside it and countering, with perfect timing, with vicious right hands over the top. Again, Buddy Baer was no Wlad, but he did possess decent fundamentals and a mighty wallop.

In comparison to these two giant killing performances, Haye's showing against Wlad was utterly impotent and clueless.

Windy

Disagree, for me Haye was avoiding Wlad's piston rod of a jab (which he was) but just simply wasn't throwing anything back. The gameplan seemed to be to frustrate Wlad and make him walk onto something by basically opening up and not sitting behind his proverbial 15ft tall solid reinforced concrete jab in his safety pen.

Sadly by about R7 it was obvious Wlad was not going to deviate or try anything other than jab Haye's head off. Seemed more intent on survival after a very quick resignation that he could get Wlad to dance to his tune to find a way through.

Tactics all wrong and resorted to pot shotting for the one magic shot which would never work as he was never in range. Am guessing they were watching vids from years ago when Wlad could be drawn into a fight. Since spending time with Steward he's become impossible to draw away from jab jab jab jab jab jab jab, which when you've got a jab that almost connects like a power punch who can blame him.

To be fair Coxy it was obvious before they stepped into the ring Wlad was not going to deviate from the jab him senseless plan, he never does as it works extremely well for him. Personally I always thoguht that was the plan behind the boorishness and playground insults, to get Wlad that wound up he would come in all guns blazing. Worth a try but a bit worrying when it clearly was not going to happen there appeared a complete lack of a plan B

coxy,

I agree that he was avoiding Wlad's jab. The problem was that he was doing so by getting out of range. Had he slipped the jab, he could have stayed in range and fired something back with some consistency, rather than rely on smash and grab raids.

Agreed Rowley, easier said than done against guys who could take your head off your shoulders.

Some have that warrior instinct of going out on their shield, others don't.

Agreed Windy, they set up for quick bursts thinking Wlad would get peeved (what it looked like anyway) and leave holes to step in through.

They didn't seem to work on a plan b if Wlad stayed behind the jab in safe mode, seemed so concerned though of Haye getting inside then getting held/mauled around the ring. Still maintain they had big issues about his stamina, never seen someone so unkeen to get in a grapple who was built like a brickpoohouse.

HumanWindmill wrote:Each to his own, but I can't wax lyrical over Haye's skills if the man lacked the fundamentals to enable him to negotiate the jab of an opponent who outreached him.

In recent years it has become fashionable, in some quarters, to dismiss Jack Dempsey as a face first brawler. However, if we watch the early going in the Willard fight we see Dempsey shimmying and showing angles, circling and feinting and trying to draw the Willard lead. Once having drawn it, he cleverly slips it and leaps in to unleash Hell on Earth on the hapless giant. Willard may have been crude, but he did possess a solid chin, decent jab and a right hand from Hell.

Then we can watch Joe Louis against Buddy Baer ( who was the same size as Wlad, ) and see Louis put on a masterclass in slipping inside the Baer jab and firing his own jab back in one movement, or slipping outside it and countering, with perfect timing, with vicious right hands over the top. Again, Buddy Baer was no Wlad, but he did possess decent fundamentals and a mighty wallop.

In comparison to these two giant killing performances, Haye's showing against Wlad was utterly impotent and clueless.

I feel you may be being slightly unfair to Haye by bracketing him alongside Louis and Dempsey, Windy. We are talking about 2 of the top 5 heavyweights of all time here, and if he had similar skills to those two then we would be talking about him as the unified HW champion of the world right now. A very good fighter on his day, Haye, but unfair to cite two genuine all time greats as the way he should have fought. Alas not all are blessed with the abilities of a Dempsey or Louis.

HumanWindmill wrote:coxy,

I agree that he was avoiding Wlad's jab. The problem was that he was doing so by getting out of range. Had he slipped the jab, he could have stayed in range and fired something back with some consistency, rather than rely on smash and grab raids.

Great point windy. There's a world of difference betweenn slipping the jab on the way in to keep in range and land your own shots (or heaven forbid, even parrying the jab - a lost art), and doing what Haye did which was using constant head & upper body movement to avoid the jab whilst running backwards and keep himself out of range. I know wlad is a great fighter, but hayes inability to close range was pathetic - none of wlads other opponents have flung themselves on the floor so many times. I really dont buy that haye is any sort of great technician. Fast yes, powerful certainly, but not much more than that. I dont even buy that he was an amazing athlete - perhaps as a sprinter he'd be good, and he's clearly aesthetically pleasing, but his stamina/endurance levels were very avergage - wlad is a much better conditioned fighter I'd say.

I think Windy has summed it up pretty well. If the ultimate aim was for Haye to get caught as little as possible by the jab then ok he did well but this isnt the case. Its easier to avoid the jab when you are simply looking to little else. The skill is avoiding it and being able to find range and come back with something. Most fighters would avoid getting hit more if they simply showed up to survive.

One thing I would say in Haes defence is I think alot of how bad he looked is down to the sublties of how good Wlad is particularl in terms of contrlling range. Haye may well have had a more aggressive plan or tried to mix it up but was simply shut down and unable to do anything. Ive never believed that the majority of Wlads opponent simply show up for a payday. I just think they find the cant deal with his style and run out of ideas. Ive seen lots of his opponents take a fair amount of punishment trying to get in range but just cant do so. Its not lack of effort. From the outside and obviously to Haye it looked like these gys were just useless but I think he got a taste of the difficulty of the job himself.

With regards to Hatton/Haye - I think some people are mixing up slickness/athleticism with skill. Hae is a better athlete than Hatton but this does not neccessarily equate to being a more skillful fighter. They both have very different styles and diffeent strengths and weaknesses.

Re Haye spending half the fight on the floor: I thought that was just a ploy to highlight Wlad's habit of leaning on his opponents. It was petty and poorly-thought-out but it did work to a degree: Wlad was docked a point, was he not? It was an uninspiring performance from Haye and if I'm perfectly honest an equally dull performance from Wlad.

BALTIMORA wrote:Re Haye spending half the fight on the floor: I thought that was just a ploy to highlight Wlad's habit of leaning on his opponents. It was petty and poorly-thought-out but it did work to a degree: Wlad was docked a point, was he not? It was an uninspiring performance from Haye and if I'm perfectly honest an equally dull performance from Wlad.

It worked for a while and Wlad got a point deducted but the ref then realised it was a con and basically scored one of Hayes falls as a knock down then later in the fight to make up for it (it wasnt a real knockdown).

BALTIMORA wrote:Re Haye spending half the fight on the floor: I thought that was just a ploy to highlight Wlad's habit of leaning on his opponents. It was petty and poorly-thought-out but it did work to a degree: Wlad was docked a point, was he not? It was an uninspiring performance from Haye and if I'm perfectly honest an equally dull performance from Wlad.

Was he?

I re-watched some of it yesterday, Balti, and it was by no means the one-sided drubbing that many now claim it to be.

In summary, not a fat lot happened, and therefore those uneventful rounds went to Wlad as the champion and home fighter, owing to his landing of a few glancing jabs in comparison to a very small amount from Haye.

Yeah he was SBS, at about the 15th time of leaning on Haye's neck. Why he wasn't pulled up on it before that God only knows.

manos de piedra wrote:

Baltimora wrote:Re Haye spending half the fight on the floor: I thought that was just a ploy to highlight Wlad's habit of leaning on his opponents. It was petty and poorly-thought-out but it did work to a degree: Wlad was docked a point, was he not? It was an uninspiring performance from Haye and if I'm perfectly honest an equally dull performance from Wlad.

It worked for a while and Wlad got a point deducted but the ref then realised it was a con and basically scored one of Hayes falls as a knock down then later in the fight to make up for it (it wasnt a real knockdown).

Yeah he milked it too much. I will admit though that it disappoints me to see Wlad resort to leaning on his opponent. I know it doesn't excuse Haye his poor performance but it's something I find unattractive to watch and a little unsportsmanlike.

Fists of Fury wrote:Yeah he was SBS, at about the 15th time of leaning on Haye's neck. Why he wasn't pulled up on it before that God only knows.

Totally forgot about it then. I seem to have it in my head that Haye's diving to the floor was viewed purely as a con with the ref giving a KD against him which clearly wasn't a legit KD.

You're right when you say it wasn't a one sided beat down the way it gets remembered. I gave wlad more or less every round, but he wasn't massively dominant in them - in fact most of them were fairly close. But hayes low output during the fight made him lose even the closest of rounds resulting in a scorecard that makes it look more of a one sided affair than it was.

Precisely, SBS.

Yeah the knockdown was a joke, clearly given by the referee as he was fed up with Haye falling.

Fists of Fury wrote:Precisely, SBS.

Yeah the knockdown was a joke, clearly given by the referee as he was fed up with Haye falling.

Could he not have just docked him a point for what in football terms would be considered diving?

Fists of Fury wrote:I re-watched some of it yesterday, Balti, and it was by no means the one-sided drubbing that many now claim it to be.

In summary, not a fat lot happened, and therefore those uneventful rounds went to Wlad as the champion and home fighter, owing to his landing of a few glancing jabs in comparison to a very small amount from Haye.

I think you are right mate the fight was quite close Klitschko was only nicking some of the rounds. Lets not forget that he was the home fighter if this was in the UK then those rounds could have gone to Haye we have seen it happen before. Lets also remember that Foreman had the fight very close almost even.

I have said all along that Haye should not retire and that he should have a rematch with Wlad or fight Vitali.

BALTIMORA wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Precisely, SBS.

Yeah the knockdown was a joke, clearly given by the referee as he was fed up with Haye falling.

Could he not have just docked him a point for what in football terms would be considered diving?

A red card for simulation may have been the best result all round.

Whilst the fight may not have been as one sided as often made out it was for me a clear Wlad win and irrespective of venue, ref or other factors any result other than a Wlad win would have been an absolute robbery. Never thought I'd say this in a Wlad fight but he was the aggressor and what little clean work that occured absolutely came from Wlad.

rowley wrote:Whilst the fight may not have been as one sided as often made out it was for me a clear Wlad win and irrespective of venue, ref or other factors any result other than a Wlad win would have been an absolute robbery. Never thought I'd say this in a Wlad fight but he was the aggressor and what little clean work that occured absolutely came from Wlad.

This takes us into the topic of how much importance aggression should be given in face of an opponent who seems to be relying on countering. Doesn't change the result one bit, and it's not something I have the patience to go over again, but it does seem a shame that we're left having to judge a fight on the smallest of things because in most areas it was a non-event.

Waingro wrote: I think you are right mate the fight was quite close Klitschko was only nicking some of the rounds. Lets not forget that he was the home fighter if this was in the UK then those rounds could have gone to Haye we have seen it happen before. Lets also remember that Foreman had the fight very close almost even.

All that proves is that Foreman is either suffering the early onset of dementia or he's inhaled too many fumes soldering his grilling machines together. Many rounds were fairly close, but there was no doubt wlad was winning them - it wasn't a 'home fighter' thing, haye was just not active enough during the fight and the result would've been no different had it been in the UK.

Waingro wrote: I have said all along that Haye should not retire and that he should have a rematch with Wlad or fight Vitali.

You should e-mail that suggestion to Haye via his website, he may not have thought of it.

rowley wrote:Whilst the fight may not have been as one sided as often made out it was for me a clear Wlad win and irrespective of venue, ref or other factors any result other than a Wlad win would have been an absolute robbery. Never thought I'd say this in a Wlad fight but he was the aggressor and what little clean work that occured absolutely came from Wlad.

Really? I normally think Wlad is the agressor in most of his fights. Granted he does it behind a jab but hes normally the guy holding the ring and dictating the fight.

Agree on the fight though its pretty difficult to view it as anything other than a comprehensive victory for Wlad. Ive watched it again a couple of times myself and I do think there is a growing sort of view that simply because Haye managed to avoid the jab better than most that this equates into close rounds. In virtually every aspect Wlad controls the fight. He may not batter Haye, but he wins most rounds very comfortably for me with the exception of 2/3.

rowley wrote:Whilst the fight may not have been as one sided as often made out it was for me a clear Wlad win and irrespective of venue, ref or other factors any result other than a Wlad win would have been an absolute robbery. Never thought I'd say this in a Wlad fight but he was the aggressor and what little clean work that occured absolutely came from Wlad.

[quote]

Precisely. How anyone can insinuate that it may have been a different result anywhere else is mental. Wlad outclassed Haye to a clear, clear win. I'm no fan of Germany to say the least but there was nothing much to complain about in the result.