craig joubert

First topic message reminder :

As a neutral can I say thank you for ruining the RWC Final. Your inability to referee the breakdown, offer any degree of consistency, notice high tackles and allow competition at the scrum meant two attacking sides intent on running the ball were reduced to kicking and playing so much of the game in the centre of the pitch.

May you never be allowed near a final again.

"I hope that like players he has to review his performance and justify a number of decisions!" __ Can we all watch?

I'd like to see how he explains scrum dominance to France in at least one scrum = NZ pen, blocking, lying offside, and high tackles. I'm sure the directives and laws were applied judiciously and that any review will make clear that he made all the correct decisions and was entirely and patently consistent and that all his decisions had no impact on the course of the game and its result whatsoever.

Should Dustoir not have queried the Ref more...as Captain.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Should Dustoir not have queried the Ref more...as Captain.

There is only so much you can do before you begin to annoy the ref and then he will ping you even more. I know what you mean though. Its a tough one to call

Joubert chickened out in the last 5 mins, there were possibly three penalties to France that he refusedto give. If it had been the other way around we know what would have happened.

I am Welsh through and through and started this game supporting the Blacks and finished the game supporting the French. The ref was so clearly the difference between the two sides. Most noticeable was the time difference he allowed at the breakdown - pinging France quickly and the Blacks very slowly. It started to become almost embarrassing as the game went on. You could start to see the only time he would give the French penalties was in their own half. He basically let the crowd and the pressure of an All Blacks win get to him.

Colchins

+1

OK so he was bad - but how do you make things better? - how do you help the guy in the middle do a better job? - and do it without slowing the pace of the game.

I like the NFL way, a man on the try, 22, halfway, 22 and try on either side and a ref in the middle, making 1 ref and 11 officials, on each incident the official who has seen something press's his yellow or red flag buzzer, 2 yellow buzz's means 2 officials have seen something and needs to be spoken to, 1 red buzz means an official has seen something that needs to be sorted.

That way with the high tackle Joubert waved Rolland away from a second official wouldve also made a noise, or Rollands red buzz meant play would be stopped for what he saw.

It’s interesting for me to read these comments, I also felt Joubert had a bad game and was very one-sided, but I put this down to me being a bit biased being half French.

Thought the penalty that New Zealand got to kick for the corner for their try should have been the other way round. McCaw didn’t release the tackled player (Dusautoir I believe), but Joubert pinged Dusautoir for placing the ball once McCaw had eventually released him.

This said I will not be asking for Joubert’s head, before this game France were poor and NZ were excellent.

France will win the world cup one day.

the fact is nz are bigger than the game itself. everything suggests it. no ban to umaga and mealamu for the disgraceful off the ball incident on Brian o driscoll. mealamu getting a 2 week ban for headbutting opponenents. allowing the 2 minute freak show before kick off. hosting a wc that should have gone to japan. the irb not clamping down on nz and particularly mccaws cynical play which has been happening for years. the fact is the "all blacks are bigger than the game. jouberts referring against Australia was biased but the deserved team won but it's a pity his biased referring cost the better team the word cup today. kaino is told not to touch the ball. he touches the ball and deliberately knock it on and joubert gives france a scrum. in a kickable position. Henry also defended mealamu and umaga for their incident on o driscoll. while nz do a lot of good for rugby, they also represent everything wrong with it at the moment. it's partly the irbs fault for letting this happen, giving mccaw world player of the year 3 times is practically promoting cynical rugby.

I make that the last 3 World cups where refs seem to have had an agenda,

"2003 Watson, where England were pinged consistantly in the scrum and elsewhere.

2007- Rolland, where England never got 50-50 calls and

2011- Where Jobert penalised France for even looking at the Ball and let AB's get away with Murder.


I make that 3 finals ruined by at best incompetance and at the very worse an agenda and as a result only England won their WC, while in 07 and today it may have been a different result had the playing field been level.

New Zealand are the deserved worl champions as they are the best team in the world and have been the best team this tournement.

Joubert was totally caught up in the moment and really just didnt perform. I was really upset that he waved his AR (Nigel Owens) away after Owens had raised his flag for a high tackle. It was in kicking range and cost France a very good chance to take the lead with 10 minutes to go. Thats the one ruling in the whole match that i would like to hear explained by Joubert.

The whole thing just felt "set on a path" to me,
im not talking about the final im talking about the whole event.

If you want a prime example look at 76.01 when the ref gives a knock on to NZ but ignores the blatant off side by McCaw as he comes round the side of the ruck.

roddersm wrote:I disagree Ozzy. I hate blaming the ref but that was disgusting today. The most one sided refereeing I've ever seen in my life.

There was no point even playing that game as Joubert was only ever going to allow one team to win.

Agreed, he totally bottled it

A genuine question - is it not possible for a referee to have a shoite game without him actually guilty of fraud and intentionally cheating a team out of victory.

I think 99% of the threads about refereeing on this RWC have been tosh. There have been some dismal performances but thats it. Dismal performances. Why does this mean the ref wants to cheat your team.

Grow up and stop accusing every single ref of being a deliberate cheat. When a player has a shocker we accept it. We don't claim that he wants to lose. No ref wants to do badly but it happens sometimes.

I think rugby fans are going to the dogs. We look down our nose at soccer fans, citing our respect for the ref. How long before we think its acceptable to surround the referee and question his calls?

red_stag, How many poor decisions did you spot in that match?

red_stag wrote:A genuine question - is it not possible for a referee to have a shoite game without him actually guilty of fraud and intentionally cheating a team out of victory.

I think 99% of the threads about refereeing on this RWC have been tosh. There have been some dismal performances but thats it. Dismal performances. Why does this mean the ref wants to cheat your team.

Grow up and stop accusing every single ref of being a deliberate cheat. When a player has a shocker we accept it. We don't claim that he wants to lose. No ref wants to do badly but it happens sometimes.

I think rugby fans are going to the dogs. We look down our nose at soccer fans, citing our respect for the ref. How long before we think its acceptable to surround the referee and question his calls?

To be fair Stag alot of these people aren't rugby fans. Just like during the Six Nations this place becomes a zoo.

The referee was dreadful, he favoured New Zealand. Maybe it was the language barrier, but I think he came under all sorts of pressure during the week. It's the pressure of refereeing New Zealand in the final in New Zealand, who have waited 24 years to win the trophy, and in the same year as that horrific earthquake. How can a referee be immune from all that. It would be great if referees could somehow be robots and not be affected but these sorts of things, but they aren't.

It doesn't mean he is corrupt and a cheat. It means he is human and capable of making mistakes.

I didn't stop to count but a fair few - Joubert did very badly overall I though. Im not disputing his performance.

Im disputing this witch hunt that happens in big games now. Nigel Owens is a racist cheat, Alain Rolland is a cheat and intentionally does things so France win, Joubert went into this game with the intention to cheat against France.

Its pitiful from these 'fans'. Kids are gonna grow up with this as an acceptable attitude and rugby will be all the worse for it

red_stag.

I have not said that Joubert was cheating... Can you as a referee answer this question that i asked. When Nigel Owens (the AR) flagged for a high tackle, why did Joubert wave it away? Is it allowed for the ref to dismiss his AR like that?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:It doesn't mean he is corrupt and a cheat. It means he is human and capable of making mistakes.

I agree with this. As I said, I think Jouberts performance was not good enough today. However there are others who don't take the view of everyones human - but rather that these people set out to cheat people. This is happening all too frequently.

red_stag, That game was spoilt for me because the reffing was so one-sided.

The reasons why people are complaining so much is because refs are not even-handed in their decisions and do not apply the laws consistently, and for both sides.

red_stag wrote:A genuine question - is it not possible for a referee to have a shoite game without him actually guilty of fraud and intentionally cheating a team out of victory.

I think 99% of the threads about refereeing on this RWC have been tosh. There have been some dismal performances but thats it. Dismal performances. Why does this mean the ref wants to cheat your team.

Grow up and stop accusing every single ref of being a deliberate cheat. When a player has a shocker we accept it. We don't claim that he wants to lose. No ref wants to do badly but it happens sometimes.

I think rugby fans are going to the dogs. We look down our nose at soccer fans, citing our respect for the ref. How long before we think its acceptable to surround the referee and question his calls?

Yes but this was the WC final not an AIL match. Joubert has a shocker. He was very biased towards NZ. He gave them the majority of 50/50 calls, he ignored quite a few of their cynical infringements at the break down. It's normal to ask yourself why.I sick of seeing NZ get away with things that other teams wouldn't.

Joubert bottled it. He let the weight of history, fan noise and home town advantage get to him because he clearly wasn't fair.

eirebilly wrote:red_stag.

I have not said that Joubert was cheating... Can you as a referee answer this question that i asked. When Nigel Owens (the AR) flagged for a high tackle, why did Joubert wave it away? Is it allowed for the ref to dismiss his AR like that?

Eire - you got it right. You said he didn't perform. Re: your question. Yes its allowed but not advised. I too thought that was silly. Obv Joubert saw it and was happy with it thats fine. But what if it was another offence that Owens was flagging for.

I think there was only one reference to 'fixing'. The sad truth is that the best ref in the world did seem to be overawed by the occasion. Players are often described as being overawed in big games so i dont think it is beyond the realms of possibility for a young ref to be the same. That being said he has done his reputation no favours which is unfortunate as he was clearly (imo) the worlds best ref

That doesnt mean he is immune to error. I recall watching the England v Oz game at twickenham when Ashton scored his wonder try. The ruck when Oz were turned over there was a clear penalty for Palmer not releasing the tackler but Joubert missed it and the rest is history. He is allowed to make wrong calls, that being said i think we can lament that the worst game i have ever seen him ref (between two tier 1 nations) happened in the RWC final

BTW im not refereeing to this thread alone but things like Facebook, twitter etc. Quite a lot of people on this thread have made valid points but it just seemed like a good place to rant.

Cheers red_stag, i didnt know that it was allowed. I thought that when the play broked down that the ref was obliged to speak to the AR about any incident he may have seen.

It certainly didnt look like Owens was flaggin for another offense but i could be wrong.

Hello, im a french. Sorry for my bad writing.
I read your comments and feel very happy to see that i am not mad, we are not bad loser, we re not the only one people to think that the referee was against us.
For the match Wales/ Frances i think the card was an adapted decision. Look, i played rugby when i had 10, the first thing we learnt was: never, never tackle a man like this Welch player did. You can kill a man with that kind of tackle. But of course, the match was ugly, winning by 1 point after defending during 30 min is not something that we re glad for. I understand the disappointment of the Welshs.

But today, it s a shame. I don't understand how Mccaw can shout a man in the head and neck (the most dangerous thing in rubgy !) and still play like he did nothing. The referee stopped the game every five min in order to penalize the french; But when it was the NZ, he just said nothing. I don't understand this hate of Anglo Saxon people against France, and the manifestation of this hate in the refeering today. It s very violent to see this in a sport like rugby.

I don't understand this hate of Anglo Saxon people against France,

you were doing great until there, there is no 'hate' against France and anyway Joubert isn't Anglo-Saxon.

Agree with others, CJ let the occasion occasion get to him and, in the context of the occasion, had a shocker. I was going to say if I was French I would be very upset but as a rugby fan I feel pretty upset anyway and do feel the showpiece occasion in rugby was somewhat spoiled as a result.

Before and during the early stages of the tournament was happy to see CJ refereeing the games as he has been the best in the world for a while now. TGG said before the tournament got going it would be decided by a ref and he was right (although I guess he feels some justice has been done after 2007). I have no doubt that the referee today cost France the game (and the cup). But pre-planned and fixed - no.

CF_melo wrote:Hello, im a french. Sorry for my bad writing.
I read your comments and feel very happy to see that i am not mad, we are not bad loser, we re not the only one people to think that the referee was against us.
For the match Wales/ Frances i think the card was an adapted decision. Look, i played rugby when i had 10, the first thing we learnt was: never, never tackle a man like this Welch player did. You can kill a man with that kind of tackle. But of course, the match was ugly, winning by 1 point after defending during 30 min is not something that we re glad for. I understand the disappointment of the Welshs.

But today, it s a shame. I don't understand how Mccaw can shout a man in the head and neck (the most dangerous thing in rubgy !) and still play like he did nothing. The referee stopped the game every five min in order to penalize the french; But when it was the NZ, he just said nothing. I don't understand this hate of Anglo Saxon people against France, and the manifestation of this hate in the refeering today. It s very violent to see this in a sport like rugby.

did you mean shoot a man in the hed and neck...agree very dangeorus

red_stag wrote:I didn't stop to count but a fair few - Joubert did very badly overall I though. Im not disputing his performance.

Im disputing this witch hunt that happens in big games now. Nigel Owens is a racist cheat, Alain Rolland is a cheat and intentionally does things so France win, Joubert went into this game with the intention to cheat against France.

Its pitiful from these 'fans'. Kids are gonna grow up with this as an acceptable attitude and rugby will be all the worse for it

you forgot the cheating ref in the SA AUS game, who was that?

To be fair , we never called Bruce Lawrence a cheat, we called him not interested in officiating a match, and therefor useless.

CF_melo wrote:Hello, im a french. Sorry for my bad writing.
I read your comments and feel very happy to see that i am not mad, we are not bad loser, we re not the only one people to think that the referee was against us.
For the match Wales/ Frances i think the card was an adapted decision. Look, i played rugby when i had 10, the first thing we learnt was: never, never tackle a man like this Welch player did. You can kill a man with that kind of tackle. But of course, the match was ugly, winning by 1 point after defending during 30 min is not something that we re glad for. I understand the disappointment of the Welshs.

But today, it s a shame. I don't understand how Mccaw can shout a man in the head and neck (the most dangerous thing in rubgy !) and still play like he did nothing. The referee stopped the game every five min in order to penalize the french; But when it was the NZ, he just said nothing. I don't understand this hate of Anglo Saxon people against France, and the manifestation of this hate in the refeering today. It s very violent to see this in a sport like rugby.

Strange to accuse a South-African man with a surname of Joubert of being an Anglo-Saxon France-hater! There isn't much France-hating outside of England.

If Carig joubert was going to nail anyone it would have been NZ, as Bruce Lawrence is a New zealander.

Besides that I doubt if he would have tried to benefit any specific team.

Well, it amounts to the same thing but my assertion of cheating was pretty tongue in cheek. If you work back from the principle that no ref is gaining from a specific team's victory, a state of play i take as read until match fixing rears its ugly head and i stop watching rugby, the problem with suggesting any ref has a partisan approach to refereeing a specific game is fundamentally flawed.

What does a partisan ref gain? Plaudits? Nope. Popularity...is that an issue for refs?! I just don't see why they would do it unless they are gaining financially and as i say until i see evidence of that i do not accept it. I believe that most refs are honourable and doing a hard job where, naturally when stakes are so high, are going to p1ss one side off.

My experience on the rugby pitch, fundamental in my view to a grasp of this issue, taught me that refs favour the dominant side, the side playing better, the side who use the ball positively. Obviously there will be detractors for such a statement but that is my experience. When it comes ot the 50/50 they look for the consistency in a side, who is breaking the bind, boring in, taking a knee etc at scrum time. Who is essentially following the hands rule in the ruck, getting back on the os line when defending, etc

Refs are human

Except Joubert.

biltongbek wrote:To be fair , we never called Bruce Lawrence a cheat, we called him not interested in officiating a match, and therefor useless.

Where as today CJ only had eyes for the team in white. As you say, in the Aus SA game BL didn`t seem bothered about the match full stop, it was just that the Aussies (and in particular Pocock) sussed this and used it to win the match unfairly. Either way it was two very bad refereeing display which had huge impacts on the tournament as a whole.

biltongbek - as a supporter of a team in S15 (where there seems to be a little more tolerance at the breakdown) how did you find CF`s display today?

Sorry mate, was out today and have not yet seen the match.

But as I have seen joubert normally referees, is he wants the game to flow and allows small things go, and are more concerned with the blatant.

Don't really know what happened out there today, but will watch the match later.

biltongbek wrote:Sorry mate, was out today and have not yet seen the match.

But as I have seen joubert normally referees, is he wants the game to flow and allows small things go, and are more concerned with the blatant.

Don't really know what happened out there today, but will watch the match later.

Okay thanks. I have been a big fan of his for a while now, been the best there is for at least the last 12 months maybe longer. I'm not one to get on my soapbox about ref's generally but personally I think he had a very poor game and directly affected the outcome of the match.

Come on men, look the atmosphere in the stadium...french couldn't shot a penality (thanks mister Joubert) and when they could, the public was so unfair, ...were we playing rugby or football ? We watched this match like "ok we are better today but they decided All Blacks will win, so we can t do anything, they will win."
I read some newspapers of NZ they were very unfair and rude with the french team, saying we were nothing "French frog are stealers...French frog are losers, blablabla".

Come in France, look our newspapers or sport papers, you ll never see something like that, or anything about the All Blacks or the Welshs, maybe certain papers are arrogant but we respect our challenger.
That s why our team fighted so much today, all the papers of the world said she was poor and rubbish

I was a Joubert fan before this game, and I'm still a fan, he had a bad game is all - jeez I had feckin loads of them.

Joubert normally refs the breakdown along the lines of whichever team gets there fustest with the mostest - gets the ball.

Today that seemed to work one way but not the other, I can't see any other explanation for that than he had a bad one.

PJHolybloke wrote:I was a Joubert fan before this game, and I'm still a fan, he had a bad game is all - jeez I had feckin loads of them.

Joubert normally refs the breakdown along the lines of whichever team gets there fustest with the mostest - gets the ball.

Today that seemed to work one way but not the other, I can't see any other explanation for that than he had a bad one.

Have no doubt that he will get a glowing report from the IRB.

skiddy wrote:the fact is nz are bigger than the game itself. everything suggests it. no ban to umaga and mealamu for the disgraceful off the ball incident on Brian o driscoll. mealamu getting a 2 week ban for headbutting opponenents. allowing the 2 minute freak show before kick off. hosting a wc that should have gone to japan. the irb not clamping down on nz and particularly mccaws cynical play which has been happening for years. the fact is the "all blacks are bigger than the game. jouberts referring against Australia was biased but the deserved team won but it's a pity his biased referring cost the better team the word cup today. kaino is told not to touch the ball. he touches the ball and deliberately knock it on and joubert gives france a scrum. in a kickable position. Henry also defended mealamu and umaga for their incident on o driscoll. while nz do a lot of good for rugby, they also represent everything wrong with it at the moment. it's partly the irbs fault for letting this happen, giving mccaw world player of the year 3 times is practically promoting cynical rugby.

That's the best post I've read on this forum.

red_stag wrote:A genuine question - is it not possible for a referee to have a shoite game without him actually guilty of fraud and intentionally cheating a team out of victory.

I think 99% of the threads about refereeing on this RWC have been tosh. There have been some dismal performances but thats it. Dismal performances. Why does this mean the ref wants to cheat your team.

Grow up and stop accusing every single ref of being a deliberate cheat. When a player has a shocker we accept it. We don't claim that he wants to lose. No ref wants to do badly but it happens sometimes.

I think rugby fans are going to the dogs. We look down our nose at soccer fans, citing our respect for the ref. How long before we think its acceptable to surround the referee and question his calls?

Stag I defended Rolland but I have seen two games in this RWC were the superior and dominant side has been totally reffed out of the game, SA against Australia and even more blatantly France today.

NZ simply should not have won today. France, unbelievably perhaps, were superior in every single aspect of the game. New Zealand won from a penalty that should never have been given as France should have had a penalty for an obvious high tackle a few second previous to the New zealand penalty.

Maybe he was just intimidated by the NZ crowd but he seemed unwilling to give any descision against NZ, even blatantly obvious penalties, yet penalised France at every single opportunity. It was honestly the most bias and inconsistant refereeing I've seen in my life.

Rodders my rant is not about the Rolland incident, its not even about Joubert today alone.

Its about the fact that many people refuse to accept that referees simply do badly sometimes without having an agenda. PJHoly sums it up well it was one dreadful performance but I've seen oodles of top class players have a bad game.

BTW I accept Joubert had an absolute mare today but its not about that. Its about a horribly over the top reaction whenever a ref does badly. Death threats, accusations of corruption, calling people racists - have all been levied at referees in this years RWC

First of all I would like to say that the ABs are a class team and over the course of the tournament have been a class act....

However....on listening to Irish radio today the comment was made by Victor Costelloe that NZ were delighted with Jouberts appointment as ref for the final as he allows them to get away with a little more at the breakdown than others. In addition the comment was made that with the hoo haa over Rollands red card last week Paddy O'Brien (a New Zealander) had an excuse to give the game to Joubert and not Rolland who had been the most consistent ref in the world cup.

I feel France were excellent today and contested the breakdowns legally. Even the penalty for the 8-0 lead was dodgy as the NZ backrow had driven Nonu and he had lost the ball in the ruck (he hadnt even hit the ground so how the French tacklers could have rolled away is beyond me).

I also think in the last 10 there were about three to five possible NZ indiscretions which Joubert ignored. I think overall NZ were fortunate...

Phew, glad we were just peeved off about Lawrence.

The worst we did was call him Bruce.

Sorry Stag, I can accept everything you say, but if a ref has a bad day it usually evens itself out. I can not recall a bad decision going in France's favour. And I'm sorry, his refusal to penalise NZ in the last section of the game showed that he was thinking. Notch has commented on the difference in refereeing once the clock is red, today Joubert started that approach on 65-70 minutes! I'm not saying he's bent, I'm saying he's weak.

Lets be honest

If Joubert had given a penalty which lost NZ the world cup in the last 10 mins I don't think he would have even got to the airport alive... let alone out the country.

He was probably thinking about self preservation if nothing else.

Glas a du wrote:Sorry Stag, I can accept everything you say, but if a ref has a bad day it usually evens itself out. I can not recall a bad decision going in France's favour. And I'm sorry, his refusal to penalise NZ in the last section of the game showed that he was thinking. Notch has commented on the difference in refereeing once the clock is red, today Joubert started that approach on 65-70 minutes! I'm not saying he's bent, I'm saying he's weak.

They had a few decisions go their way in the semi! Perhaps things did even-out after all!