End of Joubert's international career ?

Do you think this is the last we see of Craig Joubert on the international scene..

Poll being simply Yes or No.. But feel free to add comments to back up your vote...

He should be kept for games between Australia and New Zealand, actually no his natural bias to southern Hemisphere would create a swirling paradox and a world ending cataclysm.

Forget his bad decisions in the game. Every referee makes mistakes.

Not shaking hands with both teams who played a huge part in arguably the game of the tournament left an even more bitter taste in the mouth.

I suspect he will consider it's not worth it and quit.

I also suspect in a couple of years we will no longer be able to make pompous claims about the virtues of rugby or condescending comments about 'football' like behaviour, which is a positive at least.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:I suspect he will consider it's not worth it and quit.

I also suspect in a couple of years we will no longer be able to make pompous claims about the virtues of rugby or condescending comments about 'football' like behaviour, which is a positive at least.

What?? Making condescending comments about football is one of my favourite things!

Joubert should be forgiven. In fact we should send him a gift as a mark of respect. Anything to be superior to football.

I think its the end of his international career...

Too often he has shown the "impression" of bias towards SH sides. Whether that is real or not, a referee cannot give this impression, and unfortunately he has done so far too often.

I think the final nail in the coffin, is his lack of respect by running from the field without the decency of acknowledging the players. I don't buy the bottle being thrown, as it appears that was after he ran off (in the tunnel), and if things where being thrown (which I doubt) the safest place would have been in the centre of the field. If he felt at all in danger, he could have simply ran towards the tunnel, and waited there to acknowledge the players. Instead he scarpered like a scolded cat.. In excusable.

Nigel Owens was abused last year and had missiles (coins) thrown at him. But he realised it wasn't the players doing this, and stood his ground.

Lets face it... Lets say some fans had broken through and headed towards him. The players may have been upset with his decision, but can you see any of those players simply standing there or running away, if fans started to attack the ref. Or do you think they would have stood their ground in support of him.

Running, in the way he has, has lost any respect any player will have for Joubert now, and as such, I will be amazed if he referees another test match.

I've changed my mind, I'd love him to referee another rugby game. when's Syria's next home game?

Yes

Not for the calls per say

But for running away

Not many people reading the wording of the poll I reckon

I have said it before "DO NOT BLAME THE REFEREE" just because your team lost.

...and another witch-hunt begins.

We want to expand the game to reach as many as possible. Shame we won't have any referees wanting to train up.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Not many people reading the wording of the poll I reckon

Your poll title and your post title have different positive outcomes

You must work in politics with that trick

Riskysports wrote:

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Not many people reading the wording of the poll I reckon

Your poll title and your post title have different positive outcomes

You must work in politics with that trick

Maybe read the original post again? Pay special attention to the author.

Cyril wrote:...and another witch-hunt begins.

We want to expand the game to reach as many as possible. Shame we won't have any referees wanting to train up.

That argument is ridiculous; why criticise politicians? we need people to run the country. Shame we won't have ministers wanting to train up.
Why criticise films? We need entertainment. Shame we won't have directors turning up.


The point is when people make mistakes they have to face up to criticism,especially at the elite level, unfortunately for Craig you can't always run away from criticism.

If we had a poll like this every time a referee annoyed some fans in an important game and it was binding, we'd very soon have no referees left.

Craig Joubert made, at worst, a few mistakes. The difference between informed and fair criticism and scapegoating is a fine one, but if people made polls saying "Should the entire Scottish pack retire from international rugby because they muffed up the line out allowing Australia to win a penalty?" we'd see through that. Because it's ridiculous. We would understand that the idea of a player retiring because he's made a few high profile mistakes in one game is ridiculous. But when referees make mistakes, oh boy... Making a few mistakes doesn't make a bad ref. Of course performances should be reviewed, of course bad performances should lead to referees going down the pecking order and good ones to them going up, but the witch hunt hang 'em high mentality is really destructive to the game.

Let's face it, we complain about refereeing standards all the time but the only way they are going to go up is if people are actually encouraged to become referees. There's a whole culture of absolutely tearing into referees when they screw up which is becoming as prevalent in rugby as it is in other sports. So we're not going to be able to recruit more referees if the prevailing culture is one where they are not respected. Saying they have to handle criticism is fine. What some Scottish fans are doing now is the same as what some Welsh fans did to Alain Rolland in 2011, which is having a witch hunt. No-one should have to handle a witch hunt.

Don't think so. It sends a very dangerous message to referees not to make any calls at the end of a game. Which will lead to more bad decisions, which isn't ok Kat because it's not a NH team.

I don't think any budding refs will be under any illusions that being a ref isn't a high pressure environment where you will face criticism for incorrect, or perceived incorrect, decisions.

If that phases you, then wrong job.

I once reffed a school football match. The goals didn't have nets. I was at a bad angle for a speculative shot and the attacking team screamed "goal" when it went in, whilst the defensive team swore blind that it travelled just over the cross bar. I gave the goal. Benefit of the doubt to the attacking team and all that. Attacking players fell about laughing afterwards. Apparently it wasn't even close.

Geez, it may be a more polite manner at this point, but calling for referees to retire is supposed to be a South African thing

temporary21 wrote:Don't think so. It sends a very dangerous message to referees not to make any calls at the end of a game. Which will lead to more bad decisions, which isn't ok Kat because it's not a NH team.

His officiating of the 2011 final is some of the worst in modern history.

He never regained his confidence from that game and this one simply proved he is out of his depth mentally. It has been as much his running off the pitch as the actual decision.

Notch wrote:If we had a poll like this every time a referee annoyed some fans in an important game and it was binding, we'd very soon have no referees left.

Craig Joubert made, at worst, a few mistakes. The difference between informed and fair criticism and scapegoating is a fine one, but if people made polls saying "Should the entire Scottish pack retire from international rugby because they muffed up the line out allowing Australia to win a penalty?" we'd see through that. Because it's ridiculous. We would  understand that the idea of a player retiring because he's made a few high profile mistakes in one game is ridiculous. But when referees make mistakes, oh boy... Making a few mistakes doesn't make a bad ref. Of course performances should be reviewed, of course bad performances should lead to referees going down the pecking order and good ones to them going up, but the witch hunt hang 'em high mentality is really destructive to the game.

Let's face it, we complain about refereeing standards all the time but the only way they are going to go up is if people are actually encouraged to become referees. There's a whole culture of absolutely tearing into referees when they screw up which is becoming as prevalent in rugby as it is in other sports. So we're not going to be able to recruit more referees if the prevailing culture is one where they are not respected. Saying they have to handle criticism is fine. What some Scottish fans are doing now is the same as what some Welsh fans did to Alain Rolland in 2011, which is having a witch hunt. No-one should have to handle a witch hunt.

Notch, he RAN off the field like a scalded cat. Why?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Notch wrote:If we had a poll like this every time a referee annoyed some fans in an important game and it was binding, we'd very soon have no referees left.

Craig Joubert made, at worst, a few mistakes. The difference between informed and fair criticism and scapegoating is a fine one, but if people made polls saying "Should the entire Scottish pack retire from international rugby because they muffed up the line out allowing Australia to win a penalty?" we'd see through that. Because it's ridiculous. We would  understand that the idea of a player retiring because he's made a few high profile mistakes in one game is ridiculous. But when referees make mistakes, oh boy... Making a few mistakes doesn't make a bad ref. Of course performances should be reviewed, of course bad performances should lead to referees going down the pecking order and good ones to them going up, but the witch hunt hang 'em high mentality is really destructive to the game.

Let's face it, we complain about refereeing standards all the time but the only way they are going to go up is if people are actually encouraged to become referees. There's a whole culture of absolutely tearing into referees when they screw up which is becoming as prevalent in rugby as it is in other sports. So we're not going to be able to recruit more referees if the prevailing culture is one where they are not respected. Saying they have to handle criticism is fine. What some Scottish fans are doing now is the same as what some Welsh fans did to Alain Rolland in 2011, which is having a witch hunt. No-one should have to handle a witch hunt.

Notch, he RAN off the field like a scalded cat. Why?

Have a listen, he clearly felt threatened https://vine.co/v/e9D1X719Emg

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't think any budding refs will be under any illusions that being a ref isn't a high pressure environment where you will face criticism for incorrect, or perceived incorrect, decisions.

If that phases you, then wrong job.

I agree with you about that, but do you genuinely think that is all he has had to face?

As I said on the other thread, I actually thought that Joubert had a decent game and I did not see any bias from him towards Australia.

The TMO and AR's on the other hand were poor.

Joubert got advice from the TMO to award the yellow card, he was not going to give it (maybe you could argue that he should have stuck with his original decision though and not be swayed).

He and the AR missed the late hit on Hogg which was a penalty offence (there were also enough replays and ample time for the TMO to intervene, which he didn't and that was poor so not Jouberts fault here either as ref's cant see everything).

The final penalty, although wrong was called at full speed and how he saw it. It may have been wrong but he also could not review it.

Running off the field was not very clever and possibly will lead to more focus on him.

Biltong wrote:Geez, it may be a more polite manner at this point, but calling for referees to retire is supposed to be a South African thing

Yet the British calls for retirement is meant in the literal sense... the bokke version involves some duck tape, a bakkie and a hole in the middle of the karoo!

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Geez, it may be a more polite manner at this point, but calling for referees to retire is supposed to be a South African thing

Yet the British calls for retirement is meant in the literal sense... the bokke version involves some duck tape, a bakkie and a hole in the middle of the karoo!

Who drives out to the Karoo these days?

There are enough mine shafts around

eirebilly wrote:Running off the field was not very clever and possibly will lead to more focus on him.

If anyone else made a mistake at their work and ran away, they would be sacked.

You hire a joiner to fit your kitchen and he makes some mistakes, he stays after he has made a mistake and he apologises and details how he will remedy the situation. If the situation cannot be remedied he never the less apologises. Fair enough.

The same joiner makes some mistakes and instead of facing up to his responsibilities, packs up and leaves the job with out a word, just how pished off would you be?

eirebilly wrote:Joubert got advice from the TMO to award the yellow card, he was not going to give it (maybe you could argue that he should have stuck with his original decision though and not be swayed).

I'm not for one minute bothered about this decision (I thought a yellow was justifiable as did Greg Laidlaw after the game) however my recollection is that it was Joubert and not the TMO who recommended the yellow. I thought he watched it on the screen, said it was a penalty offence and a yellow card, but not a penalty try, and then the TMO (silent thus far) agreed with him. I don't think the TMO suggested the yellow, but merely agreed with Joubert's interpretation of the big screen.

I was sure that's the way it happened FES. If I am wrong then I retract that statement

If Joubert had made that call in the first half there would be no discussion......

fa0019 wrote:
His officiating of the 2011 final is some of the worst in modern history .

Wasn't even the worst of the knockout phase of that tournament.

Allty wrote:If Joubert had made that call in the first half there would be no discussion......  

The decision to run off the pitch? Yeah you are right. It would have been weird if he started shaking hands after the end of the first half.

Allty wrote:If Joubert had made that call in the first half there would be no discussion......  

And if he'd made it in an u15s game less than 15 people would give a toss, unfortunately being a top class referee is about having the courage and ability in the biggest games and at the biggest moments to make the correct call then Craig has shown he has none of either. Everyone makes mistakes, not every one is cut our for the top level, running away is the behaviour of a coward, he is a dreadful referee but also a pathetic human being.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Notch, he RAN off the field like a scalded cat. Why?

Because he felt in danger from the booing from the crowd? It must be pretty intimidating to hear tens of thousands of people booing. Removing himself not only took him out of perceived danger but removed the focus of the anger. Understandable in my view

funnyExiledScot wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Joubert got advice from the TMO to award the yellow card, he was not going to give it (maybe you could argue that he should have stuck with his original decision though and not be swayed).

I'm not for one minute bothered about this decision (I thought a yellow was justifiable as did Greg Laidlaw after the game) however my recollection is that it was Joubert and not the TMO who recommended the yellow. I thought he watched it on the screen, said it was a penalty offence and a yellow card, but not a penalty try, and then the TMO (silent thus far) agreed with him. I don't think the TMO suggested the yellow, but merely agreed with Joubert's interpretation of the big screen.

I agree

TJ wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Notch, he RAN off the field like a scalded cat. Why?

Because he felt in danger from the booing from the crowd?  It must be pretty intimidating to hear tens of thousands of people booing.  Removing himself not only took him out of perceived danger but removed the focus of the anger.  Understandable in my view

TJ,  Tim Joubert? Craig's brother I presume considering how vehemently you are defending him.

He got booed, that doesn't mean you run away and neglect your duties as an official for world rugby.

The way you are talking it's as if the fans had already grabbed pitch forks and had already lit their lanterns.

GLove39 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Notch wrote:If we had a poll like this every time a referee annoyed some fans in an important game and it was binding, we'd very soon have no referees left.

Craig Joubert made, at worst, a few mistakes. The difference between informed and fair criticism and scapegoating is a fine one, but if people made polls saying "Should the entire Scottish pack retire from international rugby because they muffed up the line out allowing Australia to win a penalty?" we'd see through that. Because it's ridiculous. We would  understand that the idea of a player retiring because he's made a few high profile mistakes in one game is ridiculous. But when referees make mistakes, oh boy... Making a few mistakes doesn't make a bad ref. Of course performances should be reviewed, of course bad performances should lead to referees going down the pecking order and good ones to them going up, but the witch hunt hang 'em high mentality is really destructive to the game.

Let's face it, we complain about refereeing standards all the time but the only way they are going to go up is if people are actually encouraged to become referees. There's a whole culture of absolutely tearing into referees when they screw up which is becoming as prevalent in rugby as it is in other sports. So we're not going to be able to recruit more referees if the prevailing culture is one where they are not respected. Saying they have to handle criticism is fine. What some Scottish fans are doing now is the same as what some Welsh fans did to Alain Rolland in 2011, which is having a witch hunt. No-one should have to handle a witch hunt.

Notch, he RAN off the field like a scalded cat. Why?

Have a listen, he clearly felt threatened https://vine.co/v/e9D1X719Emg

GLove any time I try to open up any of your vines, comes up as address invalid. Don't know if it's my proxy apple or what..

I hope we've seen the last of him. I can't stand it when he officiates Wales against SH opposition. The bad news is that good refs like Owens and Barnes are trying to match his style and it's not doing any of the NH teams much good having to try and adapt to it.

brennomac wrote:

GLove39 wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Notch wrote:If we had a poll like this every time a referee annoyed some fans in an important game and it was binding, we'd very soon have no referees left.

Craig Joubert made, at worst, a few mistakes. The difference between informed and fair criticism and scapegoating is a fine one, but if people made polls saying "Should the entire Scottish pack retire from international rugby because they muffed up the line out allowing Australia to win a penalty?" we'd see through that. Because it's ridiculous. We would  understand that the idea of a player retiring because he's made a few high profile mistakes in one game is ridiculous. But when referees make mistakes, oh boy... Making a few mistakes doesn't make a bad ref. Of course performances should be reviewed, of course bad performances should lead to referees going down the pecking order and good ones to them going up, but the witch hunt hang 'em high mentality is really destructive to the game.

Let's face it, we complain about refereeing standards all the time but the only way they are going to go up is if people are actually encouraged to become referees. There's a whole culture of absolutely tearing into referees when they screw up which is becoming as prevalent in rugby as it is in other sports. So we're not going to be able to recruit more referees if the prevailing culture is one where they are not respected. Saying they have to handle criticism is fine. What some Scottish fans are doing now is the same as what some Welsh fans did to Alain Rolland in 2011, which is having a witch hunt. No-one should have to handle a witch hunt.

Notch, he RAN off the field like a scalded cat. Why?

Have a listen, he clearly felt threatened https://vine.co/v/e9D1X719Emg

GLove any time I try to open up any of your vines, comes up as address invalid.  Don't know if it's my proxy apple or what..

How odd, works fine on my mac on any number of browsers. Maybe try on your phone?

123456789. wrote:

Allty wrote:If Joubert had made that call in the first half there would be no discussion......  

And if he'd made it in an u15s game less than 15 people would give a toss, unfortunately being a top class referee is about having the courage and ability in the biggest games and at the biggest moments to make the correct call then Craig has shown he has none of either. Everyone makes mistakes, not every one is cut our for the top level, running away is the behaviour of a coward, he is a dreadful referee but also a pathetic human being.

Ahh, this must be more of that legitimate criticism towards Joubert that I've been hearing about.


Classy again TJ, respect

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

123456789. wrote:

Allty wrote:If Joubert had made that call in the first half there would be no discussion......  

And if he'd made it in an u15s game less than 15 people would give a toss, unfortunately being a top class referee is about having the courage and ability in the biggest games and at the biggest moments to make the correct call then Craig has shown he has none of either. Everyone makes mistakes, not every one is cut our for the top level, running away is the behaviour of a coward, he is a dreadful referee but also a pathetic human being.

Ahh, this must be more of that legitimate criticism towards Joubert that I've been hearing about.


Classy again TJ, respect

I respect he's made mistakes when it comes to refereeing, it shows he wasn't up to the required standard, few of us are that is understandable. To run away like he did was pathetic.

No it should not be his last game. He made an error? Yes. We all know about it when thinking of our own sides. All of them do. And when they do, and it doesn't matter what time, they potentially influence the final result.

SecretFly wrote:No it should not be his last game.  He made an error?  Yes.  We all know about it when thinking of our own sides.  All of them do.  And when they do, and it doesn't matter what time, they potentially influence the final result.

He ran away after the game instead of congratulating the Australians and commiserating the team that was beaten!

Why did he run away?

If it was errors I wouldn't bat too much of an eyelid about him officiating again, but the fact he couldn't even face the players he arguably disappointed with his decision means he cannot ever regain the respect of players of any nationality again IMO.

I think it was the crowd myself - tens of thousands baying and booing

TJ wrote:I think it was the crowd myself - tens of thousands baying and booing

Fans booing referee? Shocker!

The man is a disgrace! Again not for his errors in the match. All refs make mistakes. He is a disgrace for fleeing the pitch like a whipped dog.

Rugger he ran away because he knew the players were irate and the crowd were irate. What was he going to do? Wait for a few "f**k offs" from angry players? Change his mind after blowing the final whistle and reversing who the winners were?

What was he going to do?

The result thing and the mistake thing and the anger thing I totally get. The decision, I get how Scots fans could be furious about that. And it was a cruel end.

But I don't get how this run-away has turned into the big event. He wasn't wanted and he knew it.

Throwing a lion amongst the pigeons, World Rugby are

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34576756

TJ wrote:I think it was the crowd myself - tens of thousands baying and booing

I was at Murrayfield for the Wales game, there were tens of thousands booing Glenn Jackson and he walked off, he did last night as well. I don't rate him as a referee but at least he acts with dignity. It is a shame this has happened because in general the refereeing at this world cup has been very good, Wayne Barnes and Nigel Owens in particular. And we like to look down on football, every week thousands of people in a far more hostile environment boo referees off of the pitch, they don't run away. I suspect it wasn't the crowd but the fact if he was there players could ask questions and if players can ask questions then he'd have to give them answers he didn't have.

BamBam wrote:Throwing a lion amongst the pigeons, World Rugby are

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34576756

This means nothing. It's not as if Australia will be stripped of the three points and IMO they shouldn't be either.

Speaking for myself I would settle for an apology from Joubert and world rugby though.

Until you know why he ran off the pitch you can't judge him. In fact all you're doing is projecting your prejudice onto him.

People make mistakes
People need to learn from those mistakes.
When they do they become better.

So if a referee has a poor game are they willing to listen to the criticism (not from the fans, but from the review) and act upon it. It seems to me that many of the elite refs don't seem to, as it always seem we complain about the same things for the same refs.

So of course CJ (and the AR's and TMO) need to learn from this, if they fail to, then frankly they don't belong in the job