Ireland - What Next

by ME-109 Thu 27 Oct 2011, 12:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

In a recent exchange with Mr Gibson (the poster) with regards to what DK should do next in terms of the teams development Gibbo has consistently argued that DK should drop everyone who is more than likely not going to be around for the 2015 WC and start playing youngsters or new players in the national team. This is regardless of how well the geriatrics are doing. His arguement is that even if we come fourth or fifth in the 6ns for a couple of years we will eventually see the team develop. I guess you could take Australia as a recent arguement for this or even Wales to an extent.

My problem with this is as follows.
1. We already have a well structured player development approach as follows...
Clubs -> Provincial Academies -> Provincial A -> Pro12 League -> HC -> A Internationals (occasional) -> Full International.

For me regardless of how old someone is (young or old) if they are good enough they should start. For example everyone says DOC should be dropped now. But if he is the best lock then he should play. If Ryan or others are not getting his position in the Munster HC team then this is a no brainer. The same for BOD, Darcy and others.

The other aspect is the commercial side. The 6ns is the IRFUs bread and butter it builds the interest in the team and the support. As with EOS, DK has the same pressure which is to do well in the 6Ns, imagine a couple of years experimenting (cos thats what it is) with bad results = poor attendances for some games which would have a knock on effect for November internationals and overall support for the game.

In addition if you look at the Welsh and Aus approach. The players the coaches picked were the best players in those positions. Including McFadden now because he is possibly the way forward while Leinster still pick a Darcy/BOD combo is farcical.

by Glas a du Sun 30 Oct 2011, 11:16 pm

That determination marks out international class Gibbo, but beware picking wingers for their defensive abilities. For a wing anything over functional defence should be considered a bonus.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 30 Oct 2011, 11:40 pm

Glas a du wrote:I haven't seen much of Conway so I can't comment. Carr though has 'x factor' a Shane Williams type. Earles is more a Tom Shanklin type. A good centre, but exposed on the wing against the likes of Joe Roc...etc.

Eh? Earls a Shanklin type? Are you mixing him up with somebody else? He is definitely more of a finisher/pacy winger than a centre. Don't rate him as a centre and he is certainly more like a Williams than a Shanklin.

Joe Rokocoko hasn't been anywhere near the international stage for a long time also mate..

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 8:33 am

Don't think too literally Rory. I had a particular incident in mind. Pace or not Earles lacks finesse, but if you pick Earles and Bowe you have to create space for them, something you've not been doing very well recently at least.

by **rodders** Mon 31 Oct 2011, 8:56 am

I think Earls is classy, one of the best backs in Ireland. I don't think he is a winger or a centre though. He kicks too much to play in midfield and his passing is poor and he doesn't influence games from the wing enough.

15 is his ideal position. He's a bit like Cullen with his broken field running and he has a habit of getting on the end of tries. With Kearney and Jones there I see Earls staying on the wing for Ireland which is a bit of a waste IMO.

by Thomond Mon 31 Oct 2011, 8:58 am

Cullen? Hope you're not thinking about Leo.....

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 9:00 am

Why, he's yours is he Thom?

by **rodders** Mon 31 Oct 2011, 9:00 am

Thomond wrote:Cullen? Hope you're not thinking about Leo.....

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 31 Oct 2011, 9:36 am

I think the 7 jersey in the future will lie with o'mahoney or dom Ryan and would expect one o them to get game time down south this summer if not off the Bench in a 6n game.

I think dom Ryan has already started taking over for jenno and McFadden has started taking over 12 from darcy.

I think carr has a chance because he is so fast, Conway also but Fitz played very well fri night which is somethin I don't like admitting too often.

Think gilroy is a gem.

Keatley to get some hcup game time.

Jones to fight hard and get the 15 jersey off rob.

Tuohy Ryan nagle and also toner (who has started very well this season I have to admit) to fill in for locks.

Healy Ross court mccallister wilkinson and hagan as our future props.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 31 Oct 2011, 9:39 am

Sin- yeah I agree on the all Irish provincial backlines but put barnes in at 13 then earls at 14 and you're sorted

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 31 Oct 2011, 12:08 pm

Earls reminds me of Cullen also actually, though I am not sure he will get anywhere at fullback. Jones is probably a better player than Earls at 15, so I don't see him getting any time at 15. I still think he is probably a wing, he has the pace and finishing ability Ireland need.

I don't think POM will be our 7, but our 8. He is not a 7. Possibly Dom Ryan though I am not convinced, he looks more like a 6. About Toner, I really hope he does come through, we could really do with someone of his size. He was quite good the other night against Edinburgh.

by Sin é Mon 31 Oct 2011, 1:33 pm

Some Earls tries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2o1T_ScJOk

A fair few tries against Welsh opposition here.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 31 Oct 2011, 1:36 pm

I rate Earls pretty highly actually, I think he is very talented but can lose his cool. Sin where do you see his position lying ultimately?

by Sin é Mon 31 Oct 2011, 2:02 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I rate Earls pretty highly actually, I think he is very talented but can lose his cool. Sin where do you see his position lying ultimately?

I think his best position would be fullback, but Felix Jones will claim that spot at Munster. After that it has to be 13 - his talent isn't full utilised out on the wing - he won't get his hands on the ball often enough.

He has just gone 24 (Tommy Bowe's international career only really took off at that age - so I wouldn't worry about him losing his cool a bit - particularly when he is moved around so much).

A lot of people claim his defence isn't good enough - but Munster (& Ireland) have had one of the best defences around - so it must not be that bad really!

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 31 Oct 2011, 2:07 pm

Maybe Munster should give Ulster one of Jones/Earls, as we are in dire need of a fullback right now Wink

Do you prefer Jones or Earls at 15 Sin? I don't think Earls will break into the international team as a 13 if I'm honest, but he did a great job there during the 6 nations against england.

by eirebilly Mon 31 Oct 2011, 3:24 pm

For me Earles is the 15. He can play 13 but he is not as effective there as he is at 15.

by Irish Curry Mon 31 Oct 2011, 4:55 pm

Earls is probably a 15 though he is a good winger. The thing is that I think Jones will be better then him and force Earls to the wing imo.

by red_stag Mon 31 Oct 2011, 6:34 pm

It looks as though Glas is operating with an extreme version of round holes for round pegs and opting for a team of complete specialists.

If thats the case I arrive at:

Healy, Best, Ross
O'Callaghan, O'Connell
Ferris, O'Brien, Jennings
Murray, O'Gara
Downey, Cave
Gilroy, Kearney, Carr

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 6:55 pm

Now you're talking, why go for a back line consisting of utility backs?

by red_stag Mon 31 Oct 2011, 7:12 pm

If used properly utility backs allow for a wide variety of formations and make the attack patterns harder to predict.

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 7:22 pm

Apart from the fact that you require planned moves to unlock defences rather than inherent skill to pounce on unexpected opportunities.

by red_stag Mon 31 Oct 2011, 7:27 pm

Nobody has inherent skill.

by Gibson Mon 31 Oct 2011, 7:35 pm

Brian O Driscoll.
George Best
Mike Gibson
Gareth Edwards
Barry John.
Lionel Messi

And 1000s of others - have and had vast amounts of inherent, unfettered - skills.

Cant really teach it. Must have it. You can improve skills, but the natural talent has to be there.

Contrast it with Buckley, Clint Newland and a vast amount of average, over-trained players, playing the game now and in the past ...and you get the picture. No matter how much work you put into them... the return is minimal.

Irish Soccer team is a prime example. Minimal skill-levels. 100% team commitment. Dreadful to watch.

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 7:50 pm

red_stag wrote:Nobody has inherent skill.

Pardon? Are you saying nothing on a rugby pitch is instinctive?

by red_stag Mon 31 Oct 2011, 7:52 pm

It is instinctive Glas.

What I'm saying is that hard work and good coaching beats talent everytime.

People do have skills and vision but these can be learnt too. A person with a wider range of skills serves better than someone with limited "natural" skills

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 8:12 pm

There be dragons

by Sin é Mon 31 Oct 2011, 9:36 pm

Gibson wrote:Brian O Driscoll.
George Best
Mike Gibson
Gareth Edwards
Barry John.
Lionel Messi

And 1000s of others - have and had vast amounts of inherent, unfettered - skills.

Cant really teach it. Must have it. You can improve skills, but the natural talent has to be there.

Contrast it with Buckley, Clint Newland and a vast amount of average, over-trained players, playing the game now and in the past ...and you get the picture. No matter how much work you put into them... the return is minimal.

Irish Soccer team is a prime example. Minimal skill-levels. 100% team commitment. Dreadful to watch.

Interesting that you only selected backs for having natural talent. Do you not rate players like Jerry Flannery (very skilled ball thrower) or Paul O'Connell? Lots of people have plenty of skills - but the big skill is having the head for it. For instance, Hook is a very talented player, but he didn't have the stomack for the drop goal to win the match. Same with Henson when Stephen Jones tried for the penalty kick - Henson (very skilfull player) wouldn't take it.

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 9:38 pm

What's your view on Carr Sin?

by Gibson Mon 31 Oct 2011, 9:51 pm

One ticked off my List.
Thanks for the memories Geordan. Great player.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15526802.stm

Now, for the rest of em. Wallace x 2. Fla. ROG. Shaggy. Buckley, yada... yada. Do the Right Thing, pre 6-N. Announce it.

The rest... is up to Kidney. chin

by Gibson Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:02 pm

Sin é wrote:
Gibson wrote:Brian O Driscoll.
George Best
Mike Gibson
Gareth Edwards
Barry John.
Lionel Messi

And 1000s of others - have and had vast amounts of inherent, unfettered - skills.

Cant really teach it. Must have it. You can improve skills, but the natural talent has to be there.

Contrast it with Buckley, Clint Newland and a vast amount of average, over-trained players, playing the game now and in the past ...and you get the picture. No matter how much work you put into them... the return is minimal.

Irish Soccer team is a prime example. Minimal skill-levels. 100% team commitment. Dreadful to watch.

Interesting that you only selected backs for having natural talent. Do you not rate players like Jerry Flannery (very skilled ball thrower) or Paul O'Connell? Lots of people have plenty of skills - but the big skill is having the head for it. For instance, Hook is a very talented player, but he didn't have the stomack for the drop goal to win the match. Same with Henson when Stephen Jones tried for the penalty kick - Henson (very skilfull player) wouldn't take it.

Point taken Sin. You are of course - correct. POC, McCaw, Fla, SOB, Slattery, Woody... countless forwards, with the skill sets and class to be mentioned in the same breath as the sexshy backs. No argument. Just different skill sets. Albeit, skills, that require less off-the-cuff movements. And a lot uglier.

Another thing yóu pointed out is also vital. Given all that - can they handle the pressure when it is really on? Thats what separates the very Top Players from the Rest. Like Carter, POC, BOD, McCaw. guinness

I dont agree with Stag. Dont believe that well-trained muckers are better than naturally skilled and equally well-trained players. Pure logic Captain.

by red_stag Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:07 pm

At international level there are no muckers. They have all climbed through professional academies, had their every movement since being a teenager completely scrutinised and made their way through the provincial rankings and into the national team.

They all have the talent. I understand what your saying but the top players consistently are improving their skill sets and incorporate these skill sets into winning coaching systems.

by Gibson Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:09 pm

Quote from Murphy link:

"However, Murphy does not anticipate a flurry of post-World Cup retirements from Test rugby.

"I do not think many of them will hang up their boots," he added.

"If you are based in Ireland, you are centrally contracted so it would not be smart to retire."

Yup, you wont see many doing it, as long as they are getting paid to see out contracts. Just like Irish politics... no Honour. It's Jobs for de Boys. Soft day tank God.

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:12 pm

I'm just an old romantic Stag. The day 30 automatons take to the field is when it's over for me. There has to be room for individual expression. This is where Kidney is going wrong. BOD's genius is in the timing.

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:13 pm

Gibson wrote:Quote from Murphy link:

"However, Murphy does not anticipate a flurry of post-World Cup retirements from Test rugby.

"I do not think many of them will hang up their boots," he added.

"If you are based in Ireland, you are centrally contracted so it would not be smart to retire."

Yup, you wont see many doing it, as long as they are getting paid to see out contracts. Just like Irish politics... no Honour. It's Jobs for de Boys. Soft day tank God.

That's when you need your coach to be a hard b'stard.

by red_stag Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:27 pm

Kidneys going wrong as he failed to appoint a suitable backs coach. Not because he has failed individual expression. I believe Kidney takes a lot of input from players.

If Ireland had a better backs coach there would be no talk about specialists and utilities and autotrons.

There is a time and place for specialists - I think tighthead prop and openside flanker are two big examples. But these days every player needs another arrow in their quiver.

by Gibson Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:27 pm

That's why we need a Top foreign coach. If only for that reason. Pure objectivity. Kidney has been guilty of blind-loyalty for yonks. Pretty much the same, but not quite as bad - as Steady Eddie. Admirable in a Human way, but naive in a ruthless pro World. I like him. Respect him as a man, if I'm perfectly honest. But I'd much rather hate the man who takes us to the next level. Don't care if he's a complete dickhead. Anything rather than this soul-destroying, sure lets give it a lash... 100 year - sporting mediocrity.

This is not a nice contest.

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:42 pm

Don't you feel Kidney is a 'manager' rather than a coach? I see him as a McGeechran type. Motivator, touchstone, lightening rod, tactician. He should slacken the reigns on the coaching and selection side and get new support staff. He needs to be the headmaster rather a teacher doing some admin on the side.

by Gibson Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:50 pm

Thats what he IS - in fairness. A Headmaster. He got quality coaches in, in Smal, Kiss and then - Feek. As Stag says, his biggest problem has been Gaffney. Leinster were more than happy to get rid of him. Useless.

He needs an Assistant Coach (just a Title) he will listen to and to really change things with. And that Assistant Coach, must be given pretty much free-reign.

It would take some cajones to do that.

by Sin é Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:52 pm

Glas a du wrote:What's your view on Carr Sin?

Big fish in a small pond (Connacht).

Problem with Connacht (and players from there) - they are under no real pressure to perform. No one expects them to achieve much.

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:57 pm

You're free at the moment aren't you Gibbo?

"Ladies and Gentlemen, the team to face Wales will be:

15-9 Kearney, Conway, O'Driscoll, McFadden, Carr, Sexton, Redden
1-8 Healy, Best, Ross, Cullen, O'Conell, Ferris, Jennings (c) Heaslip

16-22 some Munster goys, Roysh!"

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:59 pm

Sin é wrote:
Glas a du wrote:What's your view on Carr Sin?

Big fish in a small pond (Connacht).

Problem with Connacht (and players from there) - they are under no real pressure to perform. No one expects them to achieve much.

I would say that they routinely over-perform because they use the underdog tag as their motivation. Whether that translates in the international context however is another question. Probably not.

by red_stag Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:00 pm

Gibson wrote:Thats what he IS - in fairness. A Headmaster. He got quality coaches in, in Smal, Kiss and then - Feek. As Stag says, his biggest problem has been Gaffney. Leinster were more than happy to get rid of him. Useless.

He needs an Assistant Coach (just a Title) he will listen to and to really change things with. And that Assistant Coach, must be given pretty much free-reign.

It would take some cajones to do that.

I agree with all this. Don't agree he's been too loyal to anyone really. Gaffney is on the way out the door and he made some big calls - no Fitz, Horan, Hayes, O'Leary, Mick O'Driscoll in the RWC squad. Instead he picks Murray, McFadden etc.

by Sin é Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:00 pm

Gibson wrote:Thats what he IS - in fairness. A Headmaster. He got quality coaches in, in Smal, Kiss and then - Feek. As Stag says, his biggest problem has been Gaffney. Leinster were more than happy to get rid of him. Useless.

He needs an Assistant Coach (just a Title) he will listen to and to really change things with. And that Assistant Coach, must be given pretty much free-reign.

It would take some cajones to do that.

Hang on a second now - the only reason Gaffney was brought in by Kidney was because he was Leinster's backs coach and he was a comfort blanket to the Leinster players. Don't forget Munster were very happy when Gaffney went back to Aus!

Kidney is the only Irish coach in the Ireland setup. Other than that he has gone outside and all with terrific cvs (Gert Smal SA Assistant for their last world cup win for instance).

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:07 pm

They need a fresh approach. Whether that is a change of coaches, players or just tactics.

by Gibson Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:10 pm

No problem with Smal & Kiss now. Feek has been a revelation.
If Conor O' Shea wasn't totally committed to Quins - I'd go for him as Assistant-Coach, Backs coach and natural Successor. He's Irish. Everyone is happy. Except Quins.

In the meantime, they (IRFU) should ask Schmidt. He will say yes, on a consultancy basis, imo.

They ARE his ultimate Gaffers anyway.

by Gibson Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:14 pm

In other news.. Id roide the brains off of Kirsty Wark. Then, go to Confession.

Bless me Deccie for I have...

by Glas a du Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:20 pm

Now then Wark v Young. The battle of the Scottish brainy birds called Kirsty.

by Sin é Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:24 pm

Gibson wrote:No problem with Smal & Kiss now. Feek has been a revelation.
If Conor O' Shea wasn't totally committed to Quins - I'd go for him as Assistant-Coach, Backs coach and natural Successor. He's Irish. Everyone is happy. Except Quins.

In the meantime, they (IRFU) should ask Schmidt. He will say yes, on a consultancy basis, imo.

They ARE his ultimate Gaffers anyway.

Why would Conor O'Shea leave Quins to become Assist Ireland coach? He could probably get the full job for England at the moment.
Anyway, O'Shea isn't a hands on coach - he is just like Kidney - a managing coach. Similar role to David Humphreys in Ulster as well I think.

by Sin é Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:30 pm

Glas a du wrote:They need a fresh approach. Whether that is a change of coaches, players or just tactics.

They have had a very short time there for international coaches - 3 years is nothing. A 24/25 year old Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan OGara, David Wallace, Paul O'Connell etc. would help the team out a bit, though.

Of course we could always go completely foreign and just use players qualified for Ireland through residency - we're down to one Irish coach now and some people think that we haven't enough non-Irish coaches even though Schmidt & McGahan are not Irish.

by Gibson Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:37 pm

I agree Sin - on the England bit. They are sounding him out and may offer him a small fortune. But, he is best off taking that team to a HC Final. And I think he will - within 2/3 years. He has the Amlin in his 1st year and is top of the English Prem, playing brilliant rugby. Nae bad.

Manager Coach or Mentor, its his philosophy I love. Loves and actively promotes open, flowing, intelligent rugby. When the time comes... he'll do for me.

by Sin é Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:48 pm

Gibbo quote from when O'Shea was appointed. O'Shea was appointed because of his good, clean image.

With Quins making it clear that head coach John Kingston, backs coach Colin Osborne and Diprose would control the playing side, it ruled out many candidates who prefer a hands-on job. O'Shea will replicate the role Richards created at Quins, dealing with player recruitment, contract negotiations, media conferences and control of team affairs on match days. However, it is unlikely he will follow Richards's complete match-day routine which meant he appeared on the touchline, barking out orders and deciding who would be replaced.

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