Ashton:Wood two sides of the coin

Ashton: hair puller
can't tackle
has alot to say for himself.

Wood: quiet
hard working
sticks up for his team mates and puts himself in the heat of battle


One got sent off when the other stayed on but was it the right one?

Personally think if England relied on players like Wood rather than Ashton (despite his obvious talents) then we wouldn't be overpowered or intimidated and have a better attitude on the pitch.

Maybe Ashton was wrong in pulling Tuilaghi's hair, but Tuilaghii lashed out so deserved a card, i would of thought a yellow card not a red.

Gotta give Ashton some credit...he likes mixing it with the big boys...thats two of the Tuilagi brothers....

I want wood at 6 for England....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gotta give Ashton some credit...he likes mixing it with the big boys...thats two of the Tuilagi brothers....

I want wood at 6 for England....

Ou could look at it that Ashton is a spiteful little Shiite who thinks that as a professional sports man is ok to pull people's hair. Or try to tear their hamstring while they are pinned in a ruck.

There are better wingers in England.get rid of him.

I think England will play them both.

Ashton needs to rein himself in a bit but he actually had an outstanding game on Saturday.
He seems to be one of those players you love or hate but his strike rate & work rate are without question.

Wood sending off was unfortunate to say the least & Saints missed him more than Tigers misses AT.
As Corry says a 'possible future captain'.

Until Ashton gets his discipline and work ethic sorted he will allways be limited and flawed.

Trouble with players like him is the penalties and cards he gives away will cost games

mafia - there arent that many better wingers in England (or the home nations)!

Englands wing options -
Sharples (maybe, unprooven)
Monye - (Good all rounder and gas)
Banahan (no way, get out of EPS)
Cueto (surely retired)
Short - bolter
Wade - bolter

Others -
George Noth
Tommy Bowe (very good all rounder)
Shane W. (retired)

RE: Tom Wood - should be starting in the 6N - I hope he is used by whoever is the interim coach.

Wood - first class back row. Decent bloke who should be starting for England.

Ashton - nasty little t*****. Full of himself and needs a serious slap. He represents everything that's wrong with England.

AH sorry....yes it looked like i was praising Ashton...i wasnt...i think its pretty poor pulling hair...

I was laughing at the fact he seems to be on a collision course with the entire Tuilagi family....

Does England really need another player whos a red card liability captaining the side?
Lewis Moody of course famously slapped up Tuilagi a few years ago, is Wood modelling himslef on the same thing?

Is a side with Manu Tuilagi, Hartley, Ashton and Lawes going to be complimented by a hothead who gets himslef red carded for a brawl started by his own teammate?

That's true Peter seabiscuit. It does sound like a rogue's gallery! Add Delon Armitage to the mix too and you have some real fireworks!

True geordiefalcon it doesn't seem like a very smart decision by Ashton to take on the Tuilagi family.

Oh and Cuetos in trouble again as well!


Could be a very experimental england side starting the 6Ns at this rate.

Wood was going in supporting team mates as was Murphy - both of whom deserved Red.
Not clever but understandable

Ashton's conduct was totally unacceptable and he should get the longest ban of the lot.

Tuilagi should have only been yellow. One punched to the ribs after what Ashton did was quite restrained

geoff998rugby wrote:Wood was going in supporting team mates as was Murphy - both of whom deserved Red.
Not clever but understandable

Ashton's conduct was totally unacceptable and he should get the longest ban of the lot.

Tuilagi should have only been yellow. One punched to the ribs after what Ashton did was quite restrained

Agree entirely.

Both massively over rated by the English media, I thought Croft was the next messiah at 6?

You don't get this kind of intensity in the Rabble12

Nope in the Rambo12 they get on with playing the game instead of cheap shots fighting and pulling hair.

geoff998rugby wrote:Wood was going in supporting team mates as was Murphy - both of whom deserved Red.
Not clever but understandable

Ashton's conduct was totally unacceptable and he should get the longest ban of the lot.

Tuilagi should have only been yellow. One punched to the ribs after what Ashton did was quite restrained

So if the French Captain had gone in and speared Warburton that would have been OK?

Getting involved in a brawl by punching people is not supporting, tahyts hwy he got a red card. Getting involved by dragging away players is. That Murphy , Agulla, and Lawes and threw punches as well doesnt excuse Wood ... its still ill discipline and only encorages other players to punch as well.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Does England really need another player whos a red card liability captaining the side?
Lewis Moody of course famously slapped up Tuilagi a few years ago, is Wood modelling himslef on the same thing?

Is a side with Manu Tuilagi, Hartley, Ashton and Lawes going to be complimented by a hothead who gets himslef red carded for a brawl started by his own teammate?

Sorry but i wouldnt describe Wood as that. Ashton was at Fault...but no player is gonna stand around whilst his team mate gets started on by players from the other team. Wood just helped out a team mate.

And comparing him to Moody....who lived of his reputation as fearless tag...but one in my eyes who had little ability...is daft. I believe Wood is a very good player...who should start at 6..or 7 should it be required.

6. Robshaw

7. Wood

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Wood was going in supporting team mates as was Murphy - both of whom deserved Red.
Not clever but understandable

Ashton's conduct was totally unacceptable and he should get the longest ban of the lot.

Tuilagi should have only been yellow. One punched to the ribs after what Ashton did was quite restrained

So if the French Captain had gone in and speared Warburton that would have been OK?

Getting involved in a brawl by punching people is not supporting, tahyts hwy he got a red card. Getting involved by dragging away players is. That Murphy , Agulla, and Lawes and threw punches as well doesnt excuse Wood ... its still ill discipline and only encorages other players to punch as well.

I said Wood and Murphy deserved a Red - how is that saying it is OK.

On a scale of misdeamours though they come some way below Ashton imv

viewtothegym wrote:Both massively over rated by the English media, I thought Croft was the next messiah at 6?

I thought all the next messiahs played for Wales don't they?

Chris Ashton is a fantastic player and seems like a good bloke. People seem to think otherwise because of his swan diving and most recently hair pulling. But i really cant think of too many wingers in England that are better tbh you should stick with him.

propdavid_london wrote:mafia - there arent that many better wingers in England (or the home nations)!

Englands wing options -
Sharples (maybe, unprooven)
Monye - (Good all rounder and gas)
Banahan (no way, get out of EPS)
Cueto (surely retired)
Short - bolter
Wade - bolter

Others -
George Noth
Tommy Bowe (very good all rounder)
Shane W. (retired)

RE: Tom Wood - should be starting in the 6N - I hope he is used by whoever is the interim coach.

England players - Strettle?

Others Visser - the best around by far with huge scoring in the rabo 12 despite playing for a poorish team - scores at a much greater rate than Bowe for example. He really is that good.

TJ -
Strettle - (bit of a defensive liability)
Visser (Looks the business-I shall reserve judgment on him till I see a bit more of him in the H-Cup)

I dont think Ashtopns in any danger of getting dropped, hes one of the few players whos names absolutley nailed on.
If Visser isnt playing for a Jeff club he simply wont get picked for England.
Strettles being flirting with the edges of the squad for a while but never forced his way into teh team
Monye nearly got back into the sqaud but wanst as good when he was in the side. He could well get in the EPS though
Banahan...probably get into the EPS as a utility man but its ridiculous to suggest he should be in the side ahea do Ashton
Cueto..wouldnt displace Ashton and I assume England will move on from him either in the 6 nations or this summer.
Armitage ..would play oppiste not instead of Ashton
Flopsy Ojo...flirterd with the edge of the world cup squad but not a relaistic option to replace Ashton, unlikley to make teh EPS
Ditto sharples, again if he did get called up could be looked at as a Cueto replecament rather than an Ashton one

Others arent even worth considering in the short term.
You could colour me amazed if a fit and unbanned Ashton isnt starting the 6 nations for England. I think most international coaches would be thinking WTF if that hapepned too.

Visser isn't eligible for England anymore because he now lives and plays in Scotland. I believe he's Dutch.

The swallow dive is disrespectful to opponents and to the team mates who put him in a try scoring position. Rugby has never been about glory hunters rubbing tries in peoples faces. It's a team effort. His refusal to decommission the dive showed a lack of respect for Johnson that was a sign of things to come in the England camp.

He's very talented obviously, but I'd like to see a coach knock him into shape and demand better behaviour from him.

i suspect Ashton may be found out itn eh 6N. Is he not vulnerable defensivly? Positioning suspect at times?

I think opposing coaches will have a damn good look at teh way he plays because he is such a potent finisher and work out ways to counteract hem/ keep him out of the game

Feckless Rogue wrote:The swallow dive is disrespectful to opponents and to the team mates who put him in a try scoring position. Rugby has never been about glory hunters rubbing tries in peoples faces. It's a team effort. His refusal to decommission the dive showed a lack of respect for Johnson that was a sign of things to come in the England camp.

He's very talented obviously, but I'd like to see a coach knock him into shape and demand better behaviour from him.

'A lack of respect for Johnson' oh get off your high horse mate. What are you talking about a sign of things to come in the England camp. Your just the kind of person that continues to bring down English rugby.

I actually like Ashton and I think Wingers should have that touch of cockiness about them as long as they can back it up. You want them to believe they are the best on the pitch and dominate their opposition.

But that cockiness needs to be tempered too with the recognition that you are part of a team and are not irreplacable!

I absolutely deplore what he did to Tuilagi and hope he is punished severly but once he has paid his dues I hope he continues to be one of the best wingers in the world.

I have no issue with players celebrating their trys... once they have scored them... but I dislike the swan diving... too little control of the ball.

TJ wrote:i suspect Ashton may be found out itn eh 6N. Is he not vulnerable defensivly? Positioning suspect at times?

I think opposing coaches will have a damn good look at teh way he plays because he is such a potent finisher and work out ways to counteract hem/ keep him out of the game

As much as i think his defence is appalling...why will he get found out?

He has played in the 6n...played in a World Cup....and not been "found out". A good coach can make sure the defensive system allows for him....

Found out may be the wrong words but opposing coaches now know how he plays and can plan counter tactics. They didn't have this knowledge last season

Feckless Rogue wrote:The swallow dive is disrespectful to opponents and to the team mates who put him in a try scoring position. Rugby has never been about glory hunters rubbing tries in peoples faces. It's a team effort. His refusal to decommission the dive showed a lack of respect for Johnson that was a sign of things to come in the England camp.

He's very talented obviously, but I'd like to see a coach knock him into shape and demand better behaviour from him.

How was it sign of disrespect to Johnson? He said he wasn't fussed as long as he didn't drop it. The 'bollocking' that was reported in the papers was for giving away stupid penalties in rucks (even though you wouldn't have guessed it if you didn't focus on the actual quotes)

The swan dive thing is a classic example of peopel lookingf or a reason to hate him.

Its OK for Shane Williams to do it throughout his career, and end on a sommersault, but not for Ashton?

Its ridiculous to suggest that its disrepsectful to the opponents too.

Theres reasons to critisize him, like the hair pulling, but really some of the guff thats spoken about the swan diving is pompous nonsense about a non issue. Sure its something that Johnson had words with him about, but it obviously didnt bother him that much as Ashton continue to do it anyway ( perhaps a reason to critisize him for being a bit immature and winding the coach up, but then it did actually make Johnno smile...is it that bad a thing that the players enjoyed themselves?) .

Its nothing more than him enjoying his rugby and scoring tries. Theres worse things in the world ( like hair pulling)

TJ wrote:Found out may be the wrong words but opposing coaches now know how he plays and can plan counter tactics. They didn't have this knowledge last season

But thats just plain wrong...when he first came across and was playing in the championship for Saints...the first thing EVERYONE said was his defence is horrific....this hasnt changed that much since his rise to England winger. Im pretty sure that he has been singled out from the beginning as a weaklink in the defence.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

But thats just plain wrong...when he first came across and was playing in the championship for Saints...the first thing EVERYONE said was his defence is horrific....this hasnt changed that much since his rise to England winger. Im pretty sure that he has been singled out from the beginning as a weaklink in the defence.

Yeah it amazing how since day one people have looked for anything remotely wrong in his game and exaggerated it out of all proportion as a stick to beat him with.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/8934622/Chris-Ashton-faces-anxious-wait-over-possible-citing-for-new-feud-with-Tuilagi-brothers.html#.Tt0IPI1V4F8.mailto

maesteg that article has been pulled by the looks of it, link doesnt work and I tried googling it but came up with the same dead link.
Not reported anywhere else yet.

It comes as no suprise though, nasty but not massively dangerous incident on his part.

A lot of players dive over extravagantly, not just Ashton. Johnson didn't tell him to stop, I believe his actual quote was "remember, they are there to have fun as well."

The hair pulling was a bit daft and I don't blame Tuilagi for reacting, but a load of players ran in to scrap and only Tom Wood got red! Joke. I have to say though, Ashton is developing his all round game magnificently. Electric pace to finish of the try and a decent kicking game too.

that link is working but its only talking about a possible citing

According to Sky Sports News, Ashton has been cited.

Are you guys joking? he was found out "Ashton" in the France game in the World cup,
Clerc just ran through him on several occasions and Ben Foden can't defend.

As regards the incident i actually felt Murphy and Ashton were the two who really let themselves down.

That aside ashton is a talented bugger. His try against Munster in Thomond was beautiful to watch and shows that when it comes to attacking he is willing to work as hard as anyone. Sadly the scarlets game showed his attitude to defence isnt where it should be.

He is a talented guy and should remain in the England team but England need a manager that has the balls to drop guys if they step out of line. Martin Johnson was a scary prospect as a captain but not as a manager and to some extent this must have been down to the RFU neutering him. The next manager/head coach must have carte blanche to run the national team as he sees fit and yes Tom Wood is one of the players to build around imo

"Johnson was a scary prospect as a captain but not as a manager "

I didn't get that either. On the pitch there was no doubt who was in charge, I don;t see many of his team mates question him. Yet, and I get this only from reading the papers, as a manager he was nowhere as fearsome.

Its the same for lots of people. Roy Keane was exactly the same in soccer.

Oh I know him, Man Utd skipper? Didn't know he went into management and was soft then, as on the pitch he was known as a hard one.

Thing is rugby being very physical sport, the fact MJ stands a big bloke and have shown not too adverse to dishing out rough justice, I would have thought that would have been enough to command respect from his minnions.

I see on the bbc site he's been cites, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16042053.stm, just trying to read what Guscott has to say about that form the link gives a 404 error. I would be interested to hear what he thinks.

I don't like Ashton, but then nor do I like Hartly either, both seems really arrogant and annoying players, and veering a bit on nasty. But if I take the subjective out of it, for the sport I think characters are good. It keeps people entertained and something to talk about. And of course it'll put bums on seats for their dislikers to come and see (hopefully) them get their come uppances.

Then again would like to know what the rest of Northampton side thinks of their more flamboyant teamates. Are they behind Ashton and Hartley everytime they pul a stunt and gets the oppos backs up, or do they think drat, here we go again? I would suspect they have the full backing of their team mates and management

Just on the swan dive -- who would he listen to if they told him to cut it out? I reckon if Mujati/Tonguiha(spelling?) pulled him aside and said cut it out he would listen. Saints succeed more because of their front three rather than their back three. TBH, until one of the chunks on his team give him a clip, or he drops the ball mid-flight, nothing is going to change.

OzT wrote:"Johnson was a scary prospect as a captain but not as a manager "

I didn't get that either. On the pitch there was no doubt who was in charge, I don;t see many of his team mates question him. Yet, and I get this only from reading the papers, as a manager he was nowhere as fearsome.

Seems everyones forgotten the early days. He was employed specificaly to deal with the chummy mess left by Ashton where players had no repsect for their coaches.
The NZ tour which (under none other than Rob Andrew) was dogged by "incidents" too, one of Jonnos firsts acts was to get rid of Topsy Ojo as a result.
He followed that up pretty quickly by giveing Cipriani a clip round the ear for daring to own a car, dumped Care and Geraghty for recklessness on the pitch, and scarng the hell out of the squad to the point they wouldnt do anything they werenst specificaly ordered to.
Up untill the turnaround on the tour to Aus he was known for being over strict to the point the players felt it stiffleing them. Seems like after the clear the air meeting and change in policy they got the balance right for a while till the rot set in.

Whats really sad that it wasnt young players letting him down, but a guy like Tindall whod only been retained because he was suppossed to set an example of model professionalism. He was part of the 2003 side, makes you wonder if they won the world cup whilst cavorting with blonde dwarves. Maybe thats Woodwards dream to fix England, I doubt it though.
He picked the players so he has to take repsonsibility for misjudging their character, and for picking a capatin who got the balance wrong in discipline vs fun. I dont think its fair to say that players dont respect him though, certainly not to the extent that Ashton lacked authority over his squad.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

But thats just plain wrong...when he first came across and was playing in the championship for Saints...the first thing EVERYONE said was his defence is horrific....this hasnt changed that much since his rise to England winger. Im pretty sure that he has been singled out from the beginning as a weaklink in the defence.

Yeah it amazing how since day one people have looked for anything remotely wrong in his game and exaggerated it out of all proportion as a stick to beat him with.

Matt Smith (who is by no means one of Tigers biggest or fastest centres) dragged Ashton with him to the line for his try and Ashton could not get him out. Ashton is a fantastic attacking winger but his defence is, and remains, an area he needs to work on. But he is not alone with having weak areas. Most players do.