Scarlets 14 v 17 Munster

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Parc Y Scarlets 10/12/11

In the pre match preamble I asked two questions:
1 will the injury to Howlett make any difference at all?
2 can the Scarlets pack withstand the onslaught they are bound to face and get any sort of decent ball for the Scarlets to get their running game going

They were the wrong questions. In the event Munster chucked it about with abandon (for two or three phases anyway) and Zebo looked quite at home.

The Scarlets had plenty of ball but for the main part were clueless with it.

What are your thoughts?

Thomond wrote:For Scarlets to qualify they need at least an LBP next week a TBP at home to Saints and a win in France. Not impossible but difficult all the same.

Sounds nigh on impossible, Yesterdays result has made the pool all the tougher. Full Credit to the might of Munster.

But Scarlets were hoping for a LBP at Franklins Gardens and came away with so much more. Fingers crossed for them. But as you say it is a huge ask.

Didn't want to raise the WRU shafting us excuse. Anyway, the game was on a plate for us (to draw at least) even then. Not good enough, well done Munster.

I agree with what Gwyn Jones said last night on S4C's highlights.

He said Scarlets can still qualify and that there may be 2 teams that qualfily from the group.

He also said Scarlets 2nd row is weak and I agree with that. That Damian Welch just isn't good enough.

I'm going to Thomond Park next week and as a neutral i'm looking forward to it, but I don’t believe for a second the Scarlets can actually win there.

Scarlets 2nd row has been weak for about 5 or 6 seasons.

The scarlets weren't expected to win the away game at saints. So out of 3 games (2 home and 1 away) - they've won 2. Which is par for the course.

Problem is Munster winning at Castres really changed everything.

3 games to go and scarlets have 10 points. they need to win their home game and win 1 away........which realistically has to be castres. If they get a losing bp at munster then anything can happen.

unlikely though.

For me the Scarlets have blown it now, to have any chance of qualifying you have to win your 3 homes games and nick one away.
Very lucky teams qualify as second placed and I'm not sure the Scarlets can now, not because they aren;t good enough but because they are not consistent enough, they won't play well enough in all their remaining games to get the results needed.

If your a serious European team you can;t beat Northampton away then lose at Homes to Munster, it just doesn't work like that I'm afraid.

This historically is their major problem, they can shock anyone on their day and build themselves up to a one off perfomance but doing it week after week is a big problem for them.

AlynDavies wrote:For me the Scarlets have blown it now, to have any chance of qualifying you have to win your 3 homes games and nick one away.
Very lucky teams qualify as second placed and I'm not sure the Scarlets can now, not because they aren;t good enough but because they are not consistent enough, they won't play well enough in all their remaining games to get the results needed.

If your a serious European team you can;t beat Northampton away then lose at Homes to Munster, it just doesn't work like that I'm afraid.

This historically is their major problem, they can shock anyone on their day and build themselves up to a one off perfomance but doing it week after week is a big problem for them.

Well the same Saints team that lost to the Scarlets made the final a few months back so that rather renders your theory incorrect.

The Scarlets have the same problem they have had since 2004. A lack of big match forwards.

Saints had an easy pool last year and that gave them an easy quarter, they beat Perpignan well but Perp tend to not travel well a lot of the time, Saints are not as good as people think.

AlynDavies wrote:For me the Scarlets have blown it now, to have any chance of qualifying you have to win your 3 homes games and nick one away.
Very lucky teams qualify as second placed and I'm not sure the Scarlets can now, not because they aren;t good enough but because they are not consistent enough, they won't play well enough in all their remaining games to get the results needed.

If your a serious European team you can;t beat Northampton away then lose at Homes to Munster, it just doesn't work like that I'm afraid.

This historically is their major problem, they can shock anyone on their day and build themselves up to a one off perfomance but doing it week after week is a big problem for them.

is that why the Scarlets have made the semi's 3 times? how many semi-finals have the Ospreys made? strange thing to say Alyn and how exactly do you know that

they won't play well enough in all their remaining games to get the results needed.

?

Apparently POM has a broken jaw, which is why he was taken off. I couldn't understand why they said it was a tactical decision so an injury makes more sense. Big blow for Munster, they can't seem to catch a break this season.

Turkster, how many of the team who last made the semi are still playing?

POM would be a massive blow. Can't catch a break is right. Who comes into the HC squad? Holland,O'Donnell or Butler?

I think that the Scarlets problem is that their much vaunted back division don't know each other. With the Welsh camp calls, it was only the second start this season for a lot of those players, they need some quality time together with their club coach, to develop an understanding of each others games.

PS
I thought Priestland looked really dangerous when he went to 15, any chance Jones will start at 10 next week?

Thomond wrote:Turkster, how many of the team who last made the semi are still playing?

POM would be a massive blow. Can't catch a break is right. Who comes into the HC squad? Holland,O'Donnell or Butler?

Holland, TOD and DOCv2 are already in the squad so I presume one of them will move to the bench with leamy coming into the starting team. I thought leamy was very good in the second half but losing POM is a blow as he was going well and made two crucial turnovers in the first half.

A friend went to the Munster A match in tralee and he said that butler, and jj hanrahan, were both very good in what was a poor match.

valjester wrote:Big blow for Munster, they can't seem to catch a break this season.

^ This made me laugh out loud.

Having Nigel Owens at Thomond Park every Heineken Cup is a very large dose of "luck". As we've already seen.

Seagultaf wrote:I think that the Scarlets problem is that their much vaunted back division don't know each other. With the Welsh camp calls, it was only the second start this season for a lot of those players, they need some quality time together with their club coach, to develop an understanding of each others games.

PS
I thought Priestland looked really dangerous when he went to 15, any chance Jones will start at 10 next week?

The Wales international screwed the Scarlets. Munster played well and deserved it, but some of those Scarlets had 1 training session in the 3 weeks leading up to the game on Saturday. Two of them had zero training sessions in the same period.

Having Nigel Owens at Thomond Park...

That's how rumours start

For me Munster continue to win without looking that good.
Shows a lot of experience I suppose.

I though Conor Murray was very poor and TOL steadied the ship.
The back row just isn't as good with the likes of Quinlan and Wallace there. The guys did their best they just are not as good.

the backs - Zebo aprt - were poor. Chambers and Hurley especially.
Barnes should start and Earls and Jones are desperately needed.

They could send out Munster A and win next week.

Afraid Glas might be right. It was Munsters unusual (for them) tactic of trying to run the ball in the first half that kept us in the game. With our weak pack if Munster play to their strengths then we will be lucky to get a LBP.

Unless...the ref thinks hang on, how many Munster players just got up off the top of that ruck after I pinged the Scarlets. Saturday was a classic. At the first sign of rugby, Munster do their synchronised lying down bit and the Scarlets get pinged. At a crucial scrum he pings the Scarlets for standing up. Botha goes off injured and Hayes comes on. There is another scrum. The Scarlets obviously can handle Hayes a lot easier and the Munster front row go up (this is within 2 minutes of the last penalty) nothing. Varley did not get a yellow card for repeat offending, I mean that just tells it's own story. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the ref for our inadequacies, we should have got that game out of sight when Munster were obviously still on the coach and would have done so if we'd have kicked our kicks (8 missed points in the first quarter which would have seen us 16 nil up) but Munster play for those calls and they get them. With their maniacal, baying supporters on his back it will be a tough ref that manages to sort Munster out so the Scarlets can play some Rugby and I just don't see it happening.

geoff998rugby wrote:For me Munster continue to win without looking that good.
Shows a lot of experience I suppose.

I though Conor Murray was very poor and TOL steadied the ship.
The back row just isn't as good with the likes of Quinlan and Wallace there. The guys did their best they just are not as good.

the backs - Zebo aprt - were poor. Chambers and Hurley especially.
Barnes should start and Earls and Jones are desperately needed.

A bit harsh. Coughlan was very good at 8 and after POC and BJ was the next in line for MOTM. POM was playing well except for the knock that needed him to be replaced and is probably one of the best backrow players in the country in terms of form. Mafi was very good. The defence overall in midfield was very good. Hurley after one bad Garryowen made a great break and off load for the try.

So far they have been doing fine "just doing their best". In Munster its all about the collective plus they are a work in progress and currently look like progressing if they keep on developing. I presume some of the other provinces would be happy with 3 wins at this stage and the sign of a developing team. If they keep winning and not being good enough then I and am sure other Munster supporters would take that.

Glas a du wrote:Unless...the ref thinks hang on, how many Munster players just got up off the top of that ruck after I pinged the Scarlets. Saturday was a classic. At the first sign of rugby, Munster do their synchronised lying down bit and the Scarlets get pinged. At a crucial scrum he pings the Scarlets for standing up. Botha goes off injured and Hayes comes on. There is another scrum. The Scarlets obviously can handle Hayes a lot easier and the Munster front row go up (this is within 2 minutes of the last penalty) nothing. Varley did not get a yellow card for repeat offending, I mean that just tells it's own story. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the ref for our inadequacies, we should have got that game out of sight when Munster were obviously still on the coach and would have done so if we'd have kicked our kicks (8 missed points in the first quarter which would have seen us 16 nil up) but Munster play for those calls and they get them. With their maniacal, baying supporters on his back it will be a tough ref that manages to sort Munster out so the Scarlets can play some Rugby and I just don't see it happening.

You were doing so well Glas...but reverted to type I see.

It is pretty hilarious how many welsh posters on this forum blame the referee at every possible opportunity. Almost every time something doesn't go their way, they turn to the ref!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It is pretty hilarious how many welsh posters on this forum blame the referee at every possible opportunity. Almost every time something doesn't go their way, they turn to the ref!

I'm not blaming the ref for our inadequacies

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the ref for our inadequacies,

Which bit of that don't you understand?

munkian wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It is pretty hilarious how many welsh posters on this forum blame the referee at every possible opportunity. Almost every time something doesn't go their way, they turn to the ref!

I'm not blaming the ref for our inadequacies

Eh did you read the rest of his post? Maybe try quoting all the other parts where he DOES blame the ref

Just because he says "oh and I am not blaming the ref" at the end of all that rant, doesn't change the fact he quite clearly does.

And to further answer my point, read the thread "Time to start cheating".

I'll speak for myself thanks. I was pointing out the reality of the situation. Munster's philosophy is simple. Defend well, soak up the pressure, rumble it through the pack until you draw enough defenders in to make it easy for the limited backs to score tries. The Llanelli philosophy is all about generating and using quick ball and you can frustrate them completely if you slow it down. My point is simple, on Saturday the ref didn't help us but we did more damage by not helping ourselves and if we think we can rely on a refs help to win in Thomond Park, or anywhere else then we are mad.

And for most welsh posters so far, it seems the reality is the ref is never on their side. It is getting very funny, and most should change the record now.

Glas a du wrote:Unless...the ref thinks hang on, how many Munster players just got up off the top of that ruck after I pinged the Scarlets. Saturday was a classic. At the first sign of rugby, Munster do their synchronised lying down bit and the Scarlets get pinged. At a crucial scrum he pings the Scarlets for standing up. Botha goes off injured and Hayes comes on. There is another scrum. The Scarlets obviously can handle Hayes a lot easier and the Munster front row go up (this is within 2 minutes of the last penalty) nothing. Varley did not get a yellow card for repeat offending, I mean that just tells it's own story. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the ref for our inadequacies, we should have got that game out of sight when Munster were obviously still on the coach and would have done so if we'd have kicked our kicks (8 missed points in the first quarter which would have seen us 16 nil up) but Munster play for those calls and they get them. With their maniacal, baying supporters on his back it will be a tough ref that manages to sort Munster out so the Scarlets can play some Rugby and I just don't see it happening.

I couldn't have put it better Glas - and regardless of what Rory thinks, it was our mistakes that lost us the game - the kicks in particular, but also the 2 or 3 great breaks we made only to throw the ball in to touch or knock on (either trying to catch a pass or trying to retrieve the ball from a ruck). But the ref was awful, offsides, missed knock ons and foward passes as well as what Glas mentioned - all were missed - and the shame is that if the game had been a draw it would have made a really interesting group - as it is I imagine Munster will easily win the group and Castres should get 2nd - when there could have been a real rollercoaster next 3 games with any one of 3 teams with the chance of finishing top.

Also apologies for starting this subject off and then leaving it to everyone else for 3 days

Look, as Welsh Pro12 teams we have to put up with the worst refs (Scottish and Italian) when playing our strongest opponents (the Irish). Poite was public enemy number 1 in Munster up to kick off on Saturday for having the temerity to penalise them in some previous game which they narrowly lost but by the end of the match I had Munster fans telling me that he was the best ref ever, he'd given them everything and that it was now quits as he had owed them one! Get off your high horse good boy.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Unless...the ref thinks hang on, how many Munster players just got up off the top of that ruck after I pinged the Scarlets. Saturday was a classic. At the first sign of rugby, Munster do their synchronised lying down bit and the Scarlets get pinged. At a crucial scrum he pings the Scarlets for standing up. Botha goes off injured and Hayes comes on. There is another scrum. The Scarlets obviously can handle Hayes a lot easier and the Munster front row go up (this is within 2 minutes of the last penalty) nothing. Varley did not get a yellow card for repeat offending, I mean that just tells it's own story. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the ref for our inadequacies, we should have got that game out of sight when Munster were obviously still on the coach and would have done so if we'd have kicked our kicks (8 missed points in the first quarter which would have seen us 16 nil up) but Munster play for those calls and they get them. With their maniacal, baying supporters on his back it will be a tough ref that manages to sort Munster out so the Scarlets can play some Rugby and I just don't see it happening.

I couldn't have put it better Glas - and regardless of what Rory thinks, it was our mistakes that lost us the game - the kicks in particular, but also the 2 or 3 great breaks we made only to throw the ball in to touch or knock on (either trying to catch a pass or trying to retrieve the ball from a ruck). But the ref was awful, offsides, missed knock ons and foward passes as well as what Glas mentioned - all were missed - and the shame is that if the game had been a draw it would have made a really interesting group - as it is I imagine Munster will easily win the group and Castres should get 2nd - when there could have been a real rollercoaster next 3 games with any one of 3 teams with the chance of finishing top.

I agree he missed a lot of the scarlets indiscretions....

Smirnoffpriest wrote: as it is I imagine Munster will easily win the group and Castres should get 2nd

Really?

I'm surprised you think that with the group as it is.

I agree he missed a lot of the scarlets indiscretions....

"Ooh you are awful, but I like you!..."

From a semi-neutral ie wanting a Welsh region to win but not a dyed in the wool Scarlets supporter it was a good cup game with Munster well versed in grinding out the necessary result . Probably there is not a better side in frustrating the opposition in the last 10 minutes when a few points in front .

I felt the Scarlets tried to play a bit too much rugby particularly when the elements closed in , there was a chance for a drop goal for instance prior to the Stephen Jones crucial knock on . They also needed to take some more points from that first half spell . On the ref while he was average at best playing the man with the whistle is part of the game and Munster did enough to win ugly .

I thought the Munster "maniacal baying " supporters that had made their way to West Wales added to a good atmosphere

Glas a du wrote:Look, as Welsh Pro12 teams we have to put up with the worst refs (Scottish and Italian) when playing our strongest opponents (the Irish). Poite was public enemy number 1 in Munster up to kick off on Saturday for having the temerity to penalise them in some previous game which they narrowly lost but by the end of the match I had Munster fans telling me that he was the best ref ever, he'd given them everything and that it was now quits as he had owed them one! Get off your high horse good boy.

This is too funny.. you have went on from "oh it isn't the ref" to now pointing out the welsh regions put up with the worst refs. Continue, you are giving me a laugh

He's saying the Scottish and Italian refs arent very good - not thay they are biased or easily swayed.

And its true for any match they ref - arent as good as Irish/Welsh/English and dare I say it French refs

As an aside one of the funniest things I have seen in a rugby ground for some time was when both sets of fans were laughing themselves silly when Poite was taken out by Timani. Did that come over on the TV coverage?

Also, I was surrounded by some Munster fans. when they went ahead they started singing "Feilds of Athens Rye". I turned around and asked them to sing in tune and they shut up!

Glas a du wrote: "Feilds of Athens Rye".

Aaaah the one about Greek Whisky.

This is too funny.. you have went on from "oh it isn't the ref" to now pointing out the welsh regions put up with the worst refs. Continue, you are giving me a laugh

I'm trying to help you understand the phenomenon rather than just decrying it from a position of ignorance

munkian wrote:He's saying the Scottish and Italian refs arent very good - not thay they are biased or easily swayed.

And its true for any match they ref - arent as good as Irish/Welsh/English and dare I say it French refs

Pretty sure he said "we welsh pro 12 teams have to put up with the worst refs (scottish/italian)"

Just the welsh mind you. No one else.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Glas a du wrote: "Feilds of Athens Rye".

Aaaah the one about Greek Whisky.

(Shhhh. Don't tell them but I know that's not what it's called.)

I also did my good deed for the day in stopping to give directions to obviously lost Munster fans and this is the thanks I get!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Look, as Welsh Pro12 teams we have to put up with the worst refs (Scottish and Italian) when playing our strongest opponents (the Irish). Poite was public enemy number 1 in Munster up to kick off on Saturday for having the temerity to penalise them in some previous game which they narrowly lost but by the end of the match I had Munster fans telling me that he was the best ref ever, he'd given them everything and that it was now quits as he had owed them one! Get off your high horse good boy.

This is too funny.. you have went on from "oh it isn't the ref" to now pointing out the welsh regions put up with the worst refs. Continue, you are giving me a laugh

He is not blaming the ref for the result, he is pointing out that we have poor refs in the Rabo compared to the Top 14, Aviva and Super 15...

DOD wrote:
I agree he missed a lot of the scarlets indiscretions....

Anyone else think dod is getting boring now? He comes out with "yeah but they did this and you did that" every week when someone gives an impartial view on a fixture Munster were involved in.

Agree with the comments on Scottish and Italian refs, we need to hire some English refs because they can interprit scrums and the break down within the laws. The French officials are usually good. They just don't like Cardiff or the B&I Lions.

So basically the only refs you would be happy with are English...?

But no doubt even then Welsh teams are at a disadvantage cause when they play England they cant have an English ref!!!

Rory, have you wondered why the Welsh regions cant get gates in or don't get many fans travelling to Ireland? PART of the reason is the poor reffing. This is not now an amateur sport where the ref is out of bounds. We are not all public schoolboys or the affluent. In Wales it is a game of the people and if they are not happy, you will hear about it or they will just not turn up.

Now the attendances are refs fault too?

Glas a du wrote:Rory, have you wondered why the Welsh regions cant get gates in or don't get many fans travelling to Ireland? PART of the reason is the poor reffing. This is not now an amateur sport where the ref is out of bounds. We are not all public schoolboys or the affluent. In Wales it is a game of the people and if they are not happy, you will hear about it or they will just not turn up.

Seriously, that is a joke. Why is it just the welsh who have this problem then?

Artful_Dodger wrote:So basically the only refs you would be happy with are English...?

But no doubt even then Welsh teams are at a disadvantage cause when they play England they cant have an English ref!!!

Who are you and what are you talking about? We are on the subject of the Pro12 here.

Glas a du wrote:Rory, have you wondered why the Welsh regions cant get gates in or don't get many fans travelling to Ireland? PART of the reason is the poor reffing. This is not now an amateur sport where the ref is out of bounds. We are not all public schoolboys or the affluent. In Wales it is a game of the people and if they are not happy, you will hear about it or they will just not turn up.

You're really starting to push things saying that poor Welsh attendances has something to do with poor refs...

Dont all the Irish provinces get Scottish and Italian refs when playing Welsh teams??

Doesnt affect the attendances here - you dont think low Welsh attendances has more to do with the failure of regionalisation to attract support because of poor choice of names, or a lack of big name foreign players perhaps or poor marketing??

Can you say Glas rather than 'the Welsh' - he's not our spokesman.