Munster v Scarlets - Sunday

by Chunky Norwich Wed 14 Dec 2011, 12:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Keith Earls has been included in the 29 strong Munster squad named this morning for the Heineken Cup round four game at Thomond Park Stadium on Sunday (12.45).

Earls came through the squad training session in UL yesterday and if he does likewise in tomorrow's run could be a contender for a place in the match day squad with Tony McGahan adding "We've to wait and see, he's been out of action for three to four weeks, so we'll have to see how he gets on in training for the rest of the week."

Munster Squad (29): Marcus Horan, Wian du Preez, Stephen Archer, John Hayes, BJ Botha, Denis Fogarty, Damien Varley, Donncha O'Callaghan, Donnacha Ryan, Paul O'Connell, Mick O'Driscoll, Ian Nagle, Billy Holland, Denis Leamy, Niall Ronan, James Coughlan, Tommy O'Donnell, Tomas O'Leary, Conor Murray, Ian Keatley, Ronan O'Gara, Johne Murphy, Denis Hurley, Scott Deasy, Simon Zebo, Will Chambers, Lifeimi Mafi, Danny Barnes, Keith Earls.

by Smirnoffpriest Sun 18 Dec 2011, 10:02 pm

Really? thats not good - though I doubt I'd be that frustrated after 2-3 seasons ago when we'd be passing into touch regularly with 2 on 1's or giving stupid interceptions almost every game (and loosing every game in the HEC for 3 seasons) indeed this seasons great - but so frustrating as it sounds we could well (should?) have beaten/drawn with Munster today and beaten them last week - meaning we would have been top of the group and could well have been seeded higher next season.

Still I always say in spite of adversity - the futures bright, the futures scarlet

by valjester Sun 18 Dec 2011, 10:12 pm

red_stag wrote:Oh it makes sense I agree. Just there's more than one way to skin a cat. ROGs tackling has been exposed by Scarlets in both Rounds 3 and 4. Yet Scarlets have lost both games and the pundits are waxing lyrical about Munsters great defense.

I dont know were you at the match today but there was a dazzlingly bright low winter sun in the first half and it was right in the Munster faces for the opening 20 minutes. I was amazed to see the likes of Zebo and Murphy weren't challenged more in the air.

Keith Earls has just returned from a knee injury and yet Scarlets didn't try chipping in a kick or two just over him to force him to turn quickly.

Your backline was playing extremely close to the gainline which often worked very well for you with flat passing (in fact there was a large amount of forward passes called against Scarlets today). However it also meant that there were fewer options to contend with and it allowed Munster to use smother tackles for most of the match.

I felt Stephen Jones was reading the game very well and was a massive loss. Also not starting him last week probably cost Scarlets the match.

They were targetting the gap between Doc and Rog very well for the first 25 mins or so but they seemed to stop after that. If wallace had been playing instead of ronan I doubt we would have seen those half breaks down that channel. Murray was also very good at plugging any holes that appeared in the defensive line but if a few passes had stuck Munster could have punished.

On Earls, aside from going for the try which was good defence by the Scarlets as much as the wrong option, I thought he had a very good game, especially for someone just back from injury. Ran some very good lines, always made ground when he took the ball, didn't miss any tackles and besides the previously discussed option, his passing and decision making was very good. He may be a better wing but he is Munster's best 13 by far and will probably stay there for the next while.

by greybeard Sun 18 Dec 2011, 11:02 pm

red_stag wrote:In the previous 3 HEC matches O'Leary did very well especially against Castres.

Today he nearly cost us the game. What angered me most was when we were trying to wear down the clock in last few minutes he attempted to take a quick tap and a quick lineout. The whole plan was to sit on our lead.

He got praise from sky for his attempted quick tap. He knew it wasn't from the right place and took it knowing the ref would call him back, thereby running the clock down even more. At least that was their interpretation.

See, you refs would never make good pundits, you don't have enough cynicism Smile

by mankiaow Mon 19 Dec 2011, 4:51 am

TOL is a complete liability. It was him and him alone who let Scarlets back into the game. Munster had the measure of the Scarlets for most of it. Scarlets made the most of the running for the first 25 mins but Munster were in control after that.

I have a feeling that ROG deliberately falls off tackles, slowing the attacker's momentum knowing he has back-up defence. Once it was shored up, it wasn't an option for the Scarlets. At his age and with his physique, why would he go full on into the tackle?

Also, Munster butchered two certain try opportunities, a la Leinster last week. If one of those had been scored, they would have been out of sight. TOL or not.

by SecretFly Mon 19 Dec 2011, 1:09 pm

I keep saying Thomas is not a scrum half. Does that mean he couldn't/can't play a role in Munster? No, he and the coach just need to realise once and for all that he is much more an unfulfilled centre player than he will ever be a scrum half. I look at him and I'm always amazed that any coach could have ever stamped natural scrum half on him. It's unnatural selection!

by Guest Mon 19 Dec 2011, 4:56 pm

why don't the both of you stop insulting each other? Thanks.

by BlueMuff Mon 19 Dec 2011, 5:31 pm

Damm did I miss a good fight Very Happy

!! has there been a load of posts deleted?

Munster are a mystery at this stage. Any other team that has just won 4 on the bounce with 2 away wins would be on a serious high no matter how close they were.

Munster on the other hand are almost soul searching. But did when did we ever steam roll teams by massive free flowing rugby.

That said I almost felt empty after the win on Sunday cause we were so poor at times! But then I think it we took one of the simple chances we could have been out of sight

GLASS OR FULL OR HALF EMPTY- Dont honestly know

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 19 Dec 2011, 5:32 pm

BlueMuff wrote:Damm did I miss a good fight !! has there been a load of posts deleted?

Munster are a mystery at this stage. Any other team that has just won 4 on the bounce with 2 away wins would be on a serious high no matter how close they were.

Munster on the other hand are almost soul searching. But did when did we ever steam roll teams by massive free flowing rugby.

That said I almost felt empty after the win on Sunday cause we were so poor at times! But then I think it we took one of the simple chances we could have been out of sight

GLASS OR FULL OR HALF EMPTY- Dont honestly know

Not really.. just some dude just keeps popping up every time I comment and I took exception to it.

by ME-109 Mon 19 Dec 2011, 7:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:I keep saying Thomas is not a scrum half. Does that mean he couldn't/can't play a role in Munster? No, he and the coach just need to realise once and for all that he is much more an unfulfilled centre player than he will ever be a scrum half. I look at him and I'm always amazed that any coach could have ever stamped natural scrum half on him. It's unnatural selection!

Maybe if you got his name right the coach might agree?

TOL has shown good form over the last few games, Sunday wasn't great but its a great position to have both he and Murray.

Yet another interesting opinion on his natural position, but seeing as a coach of the stature of mcgeechan thought very highly of him for the lions..

by **rodders** Mon 19 Dec 2011, 7:25 pm

DOD wrote:
Yet another interesting opinion on his natural position, but seeing as a coach of the stature of mcgeechan thought very highly of him for the lions..

Mcgeehan thought Ugo Monye was better than Shane Williams too.... Whistle

by SecretFly Mon 19 Dec 2011, 10:05 pm

You're a senstive man DOD. Maybe I should just stop commenting on anything Munster? Sorry about the name slip...but it wasn't my first and certainly won't be my last typo. My two index fingers work as fast as they can but I ain't no secretary.

by Sin é Mon 19 Dec 2011, 10:20 pm

roddersm wrote:
DOD wrote:
Yet another interesting opinion on his natural position, but seeing as a coach of the stature of mcgeechan thought very highly of him for the lions..

Mcgeehan thought Ugo Monye was better than Shane Williams too....

Excellent point with regard to Tomas. If Ugo got the same number of chances that SW got on that Lions tour, he too would have come good!

by maestegmafia Mon 19 Dec 2011, 10:22 pm

Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
DOD wrote:
Yet another interesting opinion on his natural position, but seeing as a coach of the stature of mcgeechan thought very highly of him for the lions..

Mcgeehan thought Ugo Monye was better than Shane Williams too....

Excellent point with regard to Tomas. If Ugo got the same number of chances that SW got on that Lions tour, he too would have come good!

If Ugo created the same amount of chances Shane Williams did he would have been good...

by Morgannwg Mon 19 Dec 2011, 10:31 pm

Sin é wrote:
Excellent point with regard to Tomas. If Ugo got the same number of chances that SW got on that Lions tour, he too would have come good!

One of them remained good after the tour, broke some try scoring record too. The other was dropped.

by Sin é Mon 19 Dec 2011, 11:06 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Excellent point with regard to Tomas. If Ugo got the same number of chances that SW got on that Lions tour, he too would have come good!

One of them remained good after the tour, broke some try scoring record too. The other was dropped.

You think 2 tries in 8 games is good Shocked

Ugo played 6 and got 5 Laugh

By the way, SW still got picked even though he didn't score any tries until his 6th game.

Anyway, Ugo seems to be doing fine with Quins - nice win down in Toulouse yesterday. Remind me how did the Ospreys do at home?

by Smirnoffpriest Mon 19 Dec 2011, 11:34 pm

Sin é wrote:
If Ugo got the same number of chances that SW got on that Lions tour, he too would have come good!

Can't believe he thinks Ugo Monye is better than Shane Williams! Laugh

by Sin é Mon 19 Dec 2011, 11:44 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:
Sin é wrote:
If Ugo got the same number of chances that SW got on that Lions tour, he too would have come good!

Can't believe he thinks Ugo Monye is better than Shane Williams!

On the last Lions Tour Ugo was better than Shane - and that tells how poor SW form was. Gatland kept playing him until he eventually scored a try in the last test. Don't think any other player got to play so many games to see if he could score Laugh

by Guest Tue 20 Dec 2011, 7:09 am

SIN'e did you watch any games in the Lions tour? You are aware of Ugo Monye having around four goes at scoring a try in the first test?

He had four run ins his team set up,but JP Pietersen exposed his complete lack of skill,attacking knowledge and school boy ball handling/placement technique.

Thats why he was dropped and Shane Williams was brought even thou carrying injuries.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 20 Dec 2011, 9:21 am

Sin é wrote:
Smirnoffpriest wrote:
Sin é wrote:
If Ugo got the same number of chances that SW got on that Lions tour, he too would have come good!

Can't believe he thinks Ugo Monye is better than Shane Williams!

On the last Lions Tour Ugo was better than Shane - and that tells how poor SW form was. Gatland kept playing him until he eventually scored a try in the last test. Don't think any other player got to play so many games to see if he could score

Wait so when when Earls or O'Leary is picked it's because McGeechan rated them but when it's SW then it's Gatland,my god man at least try to have some consistency in what you're saying.

by **rodders** Tue 20 Dec 2011, 9:26 am

Wow I was not expecting so much love for Ugo! That point sure backfired! Munster v Scarlets - Sunday - Page 7 3754190863

Anyways all that matters is Conor Murray and Isaac Boss are awesome and O'Leary .....er isn't.... Munster v Scarlets - Sunday - Page 7 3602195817

by Tayto Tue 20 Dec 2011, 10:40 am

How's the going there all the Munster crew.

Happy Christmas Munster v Scarlets - Sunday - Page 7 3845856932

by Sin é Tue 20 Dec 2011, 11:49 am

viewtothegym wrote:SIN'e did you watch any games in the Lions tour? You are aware of Ugo Monye having around four goes at scoring a try in the first test?

He had four run ins his team set up,but JP Pietersen exposed his complete lack of skill,attacking knowledge and school boy ball handling/placement technique.

Thats why he was dropped and Shane Williams was brought even thou carrying injuries.

Shane Williams had a very, very poor Lions Tour. Being injured was no excuse that he still got picked. He couldn't even score when playing for the dirt trackers. He was on that tour on reputation (having skinned Habana in yet more glorious failure yet again for Wales).

Circumstances not unlike Tomas O'Leary has been recently - coming back from an injury - difference was Williams got 8 games to get fit, O'Leary didn't and was just slated and made the scape goat for Sexton's inability to deliver consistently.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 20 Dec 2011, 11:52 am

Why wasn't Mafi binned?

by red_stag Tue 20 Dec 2011, 11:53 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why wasn't Mafi binned?

For what?

by SecretFly Tue 20 Dec 2011, 11:55 am

Sin é wrote: difference was Williams got 8 games to get fit, O'Leary didn't and was just slated and made the scape goat for Sexton's inability to deliver consistently.

You blamed Gatland that he had an out of form Williams on the pitch at all during the Lions tour and yet you question Sexton again when defending Tomas (got it right this time! whew) who wasn't given sufficient time to get fit before being put out on an international field? Was then Kidney as wrong as Gatland to have him there at all? If Gatland was wrong about Williams then Kidney....

by Red Right Tue 20 Dec 2011, 11:57 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why wasn't Mafi binned?

You can't actually bin a guy for butchering gilt edged try scoring opportunities Run

by **rodders** Tue 20 Dec 2011, 12:00 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote: difference was Williams got 8 games to get fit, O'Leary didn't and was just slated and made the scape goat for Sexton's inability to deliver consistently.

You blamed Gatland that he had an out of form Williams on the pitch at all during the Lions tour and yet you question Sexton again when defending Tomas (got it right this time! whew) who wasn't given sufficient time to get fit before being put out on an international field? Was then Kidney as wrong as Gatland to have him there at all? If Gatland was wrong about Williams then Kidney....

I can feel some stats coming ....... Run

by SecretFly Tue 20 Dec 2011, 12:02 pm

I'm with you, rodders !!!!!!!!!!!!! Run

by Guest Tue 20 Dec 2011, 12:03 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why wasn't Mafi binned?

Twas a fine line with him. Think it was coz it was outside his 22 and we weren't guaranteed to score a try before he slowed the ball down so obviously. Have seen players carded for things like that before though.

by ME-109 Tue 20 Dec 2011, 12:05 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote: difference was Williams got 8 games to get fit, O'Leary didn't and was just slated and made the scape goat for Sexton's inability to deliver consistently.

You blamed Gatland that he had an out of form Williams on the pitch at all during the Lions tour and yet you question Sexton again when defending Tomas (got it right this time! whew) who wasn't given sufficient time to get fit before being put out on an international field? Was then Kidney as wrong as Gatland to have him there at all? If Gatland was wrong about Williams then Kidney....

Its Tomás... Cool

Kidney didnt pick TOL for the World cup did he? Although I bet he wished he did when the welsh game was going on. TOL is showing form. He still has some way to go, but if he hits the same form as 09 he is still better than Boss or Redden (by a long shot) and will challenge Murray. Based on last weekend Murray is out of sight at the moment anyway.

by Irish Curry Tue 20 Dec 2011, 12:12 pm

TOL is doing ok now considering how shockingly bad he was but Murray is just head and shoulders above the rest of the Irish SHs ans possible the form SH in europe, Boss or Redden should start on the bench in the 6 nations on current form and whoever is starting more out of those two should. TOL should hope to start with the wolfhounds and work his way up.

by SecretFly Tue 20 Dec 2011, 12:20 pm

Oh I can say TOL and get away without trying to find the fada (which I can't do, tell me where it is?!) Anyway, yes, TOL apart from a blip or two at the weekend looks to be motoring back into form. Hope it keeps up - hot competition for spots is what we all want, not some out of form player being sucked into a squad because of lack of alternatives. Murray looks like he has everything, including the damn money spinning good looks, damn him!!!! I look forward to more of him for sure. But sin e(without the fada) WAS blaming a coach for including an out of form player and I just wanted him to clarify that he was critical of all coaches who did that.

by **rodders** Tue 20 Dec 2011, 12:38 pm

SecretFly wrote:Oh I can say TOL and get away without trying to find the fada (which I can't do, tell me where it is?!)

Your keyboard must be set to 'jackeen' ..... Munster v Scarlets - Sunday - Page 7 3602195817

by Sin é Tue 20 Dec 2011, 1:09 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote: difference was Williams got 8 games to get fit, O'Leary didn't and was just slated and made the scape goat for Sexton's inability to deliver consistently.

You blamed Gatland that he had an out of form Williams on the pitch at all during the Lions tour and yet you question Sexton again when defending Tomas (got it right this time! whew) who wasn't given sufficient time to get fit before being put out on an international field? Was then Kidney as wrong as Gatland to have him there at all? If Gatland was wrong about Williams then Kidney....

I made the point that SW was given a lot of time to get himself back in form by his coaches on the Lions Tour. The same latitude wasn't given to Ugo Monye (or Luke Fitz for that matter). I can only deduce that happened because Gatland & Edwards was his national coach as well.

Kidney didn't have O'Leary (or Luke) at the world cup - what's your point?

As for Sexton, its my recollection that O'Leary shipped most the blame for his slow pass when Ireland played badly - an excuse that O'Gara never got the benefit of. O'Gara was to blame for Sexton's poor form at the world cup.

by SecretFly Tue 20 Dec 2011, 1:31 pm

Sin é wrote:
Kidney didn't have O'Leary (or Luke) at the world cup - what's your point?

My point is he might have been better served getting two others up to speed in the run in to the WC rather than playing and replaying misfiring players (Fitz and TOL). He was giving them time to work back into form for sure. A good tactic, not castigating it. But that period is also a period when the back-up boys (who were in relatively good form) could have been given international run-outs to prepare them. Apples and oranges, yes; but again, you're the one who found fault with Lions coaches that had ideas about the best players available to them, and players they kept faith in, hoping that some inspiration would arrive when the chips were down. Kidney had the same plan for TOL and Fitz.

by ME-109 Tue 20 Dec 2011, 1:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Kidney didn't have O'Leary (or Luke) at the world cup - what's your point?

My point is he might have been better served getting two others up to speed in the run in to the WC rather than playing and replaying misfiring players (Fitz and TOL). He was giving them time to work back into form for sure. A good tactic, not castigating it. But that period is also a period when the back-up boys (who were in relatively good form) could have been given international run-outs to prepare them. Apples and oranges, yes; but again, you're the one who found fault with Lions coaches that had ideas about the best players available to them, and players they kept faith in, hoping that some inspiration would arrive when the chips were down. Kidney had the same plan for TOL and Fitz.

TOL and FITZ are both good players and deserved the chance...you think he was just going to dump them. My guess would be you havent done a lot of team management?

by SecretFly Tue 20 Dec 2011, 2:22 pm

DOD wrote:
TOL and FITZ are both good players and deserved the chance...you think he was just going to dump them. My guess would be you havent done a lot of team management?

Guess all you like DOD, meanwhile a secret is a secret.

Anyway, thanks for confirming my point for me and answering Sin e's query at the same time. Yes, Gatland judged that Williams was a 'good' player (some would say by far a better player than both TOL AND Fitz); Gatland thought he was a 'good' player and he felt he 'deserved the chance'. Tell that to Sin e when you see him next and tell him that's not me who is saying it, but you. Wink

by Sin é Tue 20 Dec 2011, 2:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:
DOD wrote:
TOL and FITZ are both good players and deserved the chance...you think he was just going to dump them. My guess would be you havent done a lot of team management?

Guess all you like DOD, meanwhile a secret is a secret.

Anyway, thanks for confirming my point for me and answering Sin e's query at the same time. Yes, Gatland judged that Williams was a 'good' player (some would say by far a better player than both TOL AND Fitz); Gatland thought he was a 'good' player and he felt he 'deserved the chance'. Tell that to Sin e when you see him next and tell him that's not me who is saying it, but you.

My initial comment was that if Monye got the same no of chances/patience that SW got, perhaps he too could have come good.

The reason apparently SW was poor was because he was injured/coming back from injury - a similar situation to Luke & TOL. Luke is only coming back now to form after his injury. TOL has had two injuries to come back from - and has to compete with Murray for gametime as well.

A bit of patience. rather than abuse from the 'Ireland' supporters would be a good thing imo.

by Sin é Tue 20 Dec 2011, 2:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Kidney didn't have O'Leary (or Luke) at the world cup - what's your point?

My point is he might have been better served getting two others up to speed in the run in to the WC rather than playing and replaying misfiring players (Fitz and TOL). He was giving them time to work back into form for sure. A good tactic, not castigating it. But that period is also a period when the back-up boys (who were in relatively good form) could have been given international run-outs to prepare them. Apples and oranges, yes; but again, you're the one who found fault with Lions coaches that had ideas about the best players available to them, and players they kept faith in, hoping that some inspiration would arrive when the chips were down. Kidney had the same plan for TOL and Fitz.

Boss isn't at the races (and never was). He was a good 3rd choice SH because he was back in his home and so not getting much gametime might have been easier for him to deal with and as a squad connection to the locals.

by **rodders** Tue 20 Dec 2011, 2:55 pm

Sin unless O'Leary's injury is some kind of head injury which slows down and scrambles his thought process and inhibits his peripheral vision then I don't think that is an excuse for some of his performances.

You could play Ugo Monye until the cows came home, he wouldn't be Shane Williams or anywhere close.

by **rodders** Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:01 pm

Sin é wrote:
Boss isn't at the races (and never was). He was a good 3rd choice SH because he was back in his home and so not getting much gametime might have been easier for him to deal with and as a squad connection to the locals.

Geebus Christ I've heard it all now! Munster v Scarlets - Sunday - Page 7 3754190863

Kidney picked Boss in case O'Leary got home sick!

by Sin é Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:04 pm

roddersm wrote:Sin unless O'Leary's injury is some kind of head injury which slows down and scrambles his thought process and inhibits his peripheral vision then I don't think that is an excuse for some of his performances.

You could play Ugo Monye until the cows came home, he wouldn't be Shane Williams or anywhere close.

Good one Rods, you don't think carrying a back injury would affect your game? thumbsup

by Sin é Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:06 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Boss isn't at the races (and never was). He was a good 3rd choice SH because he was back in his home and so not getting much gametime might have been easier for him to deal with and as a squad connection to the locals.

Geebus Christ I've heard it all now! Kidney picked Boss in case O'Leary got home sick!

How did you come to that conclusion Rolling Eyes

Murray was picked instead of O'Leary, not Boss, who was always going as 3rd choice SH.

by **rodders** Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:07 pm

Sin a back injury doesn't affect your brain or ability to read the game?

Does he still have this back injury?

by Sin é Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:31 pm

roddersm wrote:Sin a back injury doesn't affect your brain or ability to read the game?

Does he still have this back injury?

No. His first game this season for Munster was 28 Oct - the same game as Murray's first after the world cup. Having Murray back has meant that he is finding it difficult to get gametime, but despite the shortage of gametime, he did very well against Castres & Northampton.

by the way, seems buckley is doing well at Sale Smile

by **rodders** Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:35 pm

I agree he was good against Castres and Saints but was a shambles against Scarletts hence I am asking about his back.

Glad to hear Buckley is doing well.

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:36 pm

I love reading the different excuses Sin manages to come up with every time a Munster player is criticised Very Happy

he has some imagination!

by Sin é Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:45 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I love reading the different excuses Sin manages to come up with every time a Munster player is criticised he has some imagination!

Its not an excuse, its a fact. Luke Fitz had some terrible form for about a year which was down to his injury and then loss of confidence. Am I making excuses for Leinster players as well.

It seems few people realise that O'leary had a back injury (as well as the ankle break), so considering the amount of abuse TOL gets, it hasn't been used much as an 'excuse.'

by ME-109 Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:55 pm

roddersm wrote:Sin unless O'Leary's injury is some kind of head injury which slows down and scrambles his thought process and inhibits his peripheral vision then I don't think that is an excuse for some of his performances.

You could play Ugo Monye until the cows came home, he wouldn't be Shane Williams or anywhere close.

One slightly off game (in a team that was playing badly on the day) out of what has so far been a season of real progress for TOL where he has been showing real form.......just a tad harsh or maybe even biased Rodders?

Not sure what the Hobbit or Ugo Monye have to do with this...

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 20 Dec 2011, 3:56 pm

I'm only kidding ya Sin Wink

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