Welsh regional funding compared to others?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16172039.stm

Cardiff Blues coach Gareth Baber says the Welsh regions need more money from the Welsh Rugby Union to hold on to star players

Each region currently receives £6million a year as part of the Participation Agreement between them and the WRU.

Is £6 million each from the WRU not enough, should the WRU not say we give you enough it's time you made more money yourselves from other areas, to keep hold of Welsh players?

Do you think £6 million each, is enough or should they get more?

Also how much does the SRU give the Pro sides?
The IRFU the Provinces?
The RFU give for elite squad players?
The FIR give the Italian teams?
and most importantly
The FFR the French clubs?

Ps I know this £6 million each is for the running of the teams and acamady and not just for salaries, but it is still alot.

THEY GET £6.5 M BETWEEN THEM INCLUDING ACADAMIES

if you're going to start a thread to slag off welsh rugby at least get your facts right.

The Welsh Rugby Union has finally announced a five-year deal with its four regions, ending the civil war that threatened to engulf the game in Wales.
It gives the regions a basic £6m a year between them

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8241963.stm

So what facts did he get wrong and how is he slagging off Wales?

Turkster wrote:if you're going to start a thread to slag off welsh rugby at least get your facts right.

The Welsh Rugby Union has finally announced a five-year deal with its four regions, ending the civil war that threatened to engulf the game in Wales.
It gives the regions a basic £6m a year between them

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8241963.stm

your link from BBC 8 September 2009 "It gives the regions a basic £6m a year between them"
my link from BBC 14 December 2011 "Each region currently receives £6million a year as part of the Participation Agreement between them and the WRU"

although I'd say the second link should read each region recieves a share of, but don't blame me, blame BBC the same source as your using.

but I'll wait for more evidence?

Still doesn't change, the main question how much is it compared to others? (depending on what it actually is?)

Artful_Dodger wrote:So what facts did he get wrong and how is he slagging off Wales?

can you read?

Each region currently receives £6million a year as part of the Participation Agreement between them and the WRU.

Is £6 million each from the WRU not enough, should the WRU not say we give you enough it's time you made more money yourselves from other areas,

and where have I said he's slagging off Wales?

Turkster wrote:if you're going to start a thread to slag off welsh rugby at least get your facts right

That would be were you said he was slagging off Wales, how does asking what the regions get compared to their rivals amount to slagging off Welsh rugby?

Kingshu wrote:

Turkster wrote:if you're going to start a thread to slag off welsh rugby at least get your facts right.

The Welsh Rugby Union has finally announced a five-year deal with its four regions, ending the civil war that threatened to engulf the game in Wales.
It gives the regions a basic £6m a year between them

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8241963.stm

your link from BBC 8 September 2009 "It gives the regions a basic £6m a year between them"
my link from BBC 14 December 2011 "Each region currently receives £6million a year as part of the Participation Agreement between them and the WRU"

although I'd say the second link should read each region recieves a share of, but don't blame me, blame BBC the same source as your using.

but I'll wait for more evidence?

Still doesn't change, the main question how much is it compared to others? (depending on what it actually is?)

seeing as they signed a 5 year agreement in 2009, and it's only 2011 now, that source is wrong, but yeah, my premise that you were about to start slagging welsh rugby was probably wrong, although revisiting the scarlets v munster thread it was an easy mistake to make.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Turkster wrote:if you're going to start a thread to slag off welsh rugby at least get your facts right

That would be were you said he was slagging off Wales, how does asking what the regions get compared to their rivals amount to slagging off Welsh rugby?

so it's reading comprehension you're short of? unlucky for you.

Reading comprehension???

Get a grip mate....

I take it your saying that you didnt claim he was slagging off Wales, you said he was slagging off Welsh rugby - pedant.

Glad to see you've fully retracted your ridiculous statement above though.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Reading comprehension???

Get a grip mate....

I take it your saying that you didnt claim he was slagging off Wales, you said he was slagging off Welsh rugby - pedant.

Glad to see you've fully retracted your ridiculous statement above though.

why ridiculous? welsh rugby is the main target for attacks on this forum, and the FACT that he came out with wrong info, albeit unknowingly, pointed to the same, the FACT that you can't tell the difference between 'Wales' and Welsh Rugby' is your problem.

Alright mate, I think its more you that has the problem that you think anyone outside of Wales talking about Welsh rugby must have some sort of sinister agenda, the fact that you think most posts on this board are attacks on Welsh rugby is evidence of this.

I just read the Munster vs Scarlets thread you mentioned, dont see any attacks on Welsh rugby there for a start and neither me nor Kingshu have posted there.

Think maybe you need to stop being so defensive.

This was not aimed to start slagging off Welsh rugby.

I read the BBC article that said each one gets £6 million a year from the WRU, and want more, I though thats a lot, and wanting more, I wonder how it compares to other Unions? (if the article was about the IRFU giving £6million to each Province, I'd have titled it Irish Provincial funding compared to others)

The £6 million may be wrong as I'm happy to believe its a share of £6 million, but all these ones have the figure wrong as well.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/13122011/58/rabodirect-pro12-baber-appeals-wru-backing.html
http://www.scumv.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48061
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/sport-news/rugby-news/2011/12/14/welsh-regions-could-lose-top-players-without-financial-help-from-wru-says-cardiff-blues-backs-coach-55578-29949312/
http://sportinglife.aol.co.uk/rugby-union/news/article/22884/7375308/baber-calls-for-wru-backing

Didn't realise there was so much copy and pasting by papers.

But even if it is £2 million a year how does it compare to others?

Artful_Dodger wrote: the fact that you think most posts on this board are attacks on Welsh rugby is evidence of this.

again, where have I said that? putting words into someone else's mouth isn't evidence at all, mate.

Turkster wrote:


why ridiculous? welsh rugby is the main target for attacks on this forum,

Thats were you said it....anyway Ive had enough of this.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Turkster wrote:


why ridiculous? welsh rugby is the main target for attacks on this forum,

Thats were you said it....anyway Ive had enough of this.

hey, you can't help it, just go back to college, try the GCSE English course first, if that's too hard try a primary school course, eventually you'll get there.

Turkster wrote:if you're going to start a thread to slag off welsh rugby at least get your facts right.

So you jumped straight in with your size 9s and now you want the moral high ground too? Seems like someone is following the Marie Antoinette school of diplomacy.

As to what the English clubs get from the RFU - well it is as usual not made easy to see. From Tigers latest accounts http://www.leicestertigers.com/downloads/Annual_Accounts_Report_2011.pdf

total Income was £19.5m of which £3.2m came from PRL. This includes, I believe, TV revenue from Sky and ESPN and EPS money from the RFU.

LondonTiger wrote:

Turkster wrote:if you're going to start a thread to slag off welsh rugby at least get your facts right.

So you jumped straight in with your size 9s and now you want the moral high ground too? Seems like someone is following the Marie Antoinette school of diplomacy.

touche, at least someone's come up with a decent put-down.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/downloads/PRLTermsto_RFU270307.pdf

Details of the agreement signed by PRL with RFU. this was signed in 2007 and in place for 8 years. It states that RFU will pay PRL £12.4m per year which PRL wiill distribute to the clubs.

I do not know if these payements were index linked at all.

Flip me, some of the welsh posters here really think the entire world is against them! Some of you really need to wise up.

Maybe wales should have their own rugby forum! (joke btw, before I get an angry horde of welsh fans).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Flip me, some of the welsh posters here really think the entire world is against them! Some of you really need to wise up.

Maybe wales should have their own rugby forum! (joke btw, before I get an angry horde of welsh fans).

Some??? It was only 1 by the looks of it.

Griff wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Flip me, some of the welsh posters here really think the entire world is against them! Some of you really need to wise up.

Maybe wales should have their own rugby forum! (joke btw, before I get an angry horde of welsh fans).

Some??? It was only 1 by the looks of it.

There has been tons of whinging going on over the past few days actually, in numerous threads. It is getting ridiculous.

Turkster wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Turkster wrote:


why ridiculous? welsh rugby is the main target for attacks on this forum,

Thats were you said it....anyway Ive had enough of this.

hey, you can't help it, just go back to college, try the GCSE English course first, if that's too hard try a primary school course, eventually you'll get there.

Jesus.....

Why add to it then? Are people only allowed to post stuff that you agree with ?
If you think something is out of order then use the complaints system thats been put in place.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Flip me, some of the welsh posters here really think the entire world is against them! Some of you really need to wise up.

Maybe wales should have their own rugby forum! (joke btw, before I get an angry horde of welsh fans).

hey, so I livened up a rubbish thread, you should be chuffed someone took interest.

Cymroglan wrote:Why add to it then? Are people only allowed to post stuff that you agree with ?
If you think something is out of order then use the complaints system thats been put in place.

There is a difference between disagreeing with someone, to whinging constantly and then blaming everyone else for anything that goes wrong. Couldn't help but notice this Turkster guy is blaming someone's reading and english skills for mistakes they themselves made. Very first post he goes on about slagging off the welsh etc. I am not adding to it, I am telling the paranoid fans to wise up. Which is totally fair enough I think.

Turkster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Flip me, some of the welsh posters here really think the entire world is against them! Some of you really need to wise up.

Maybe wales should have their own rugby forum! (joke btw, before I get an angry horde of welsh fans).

hey, so I livened up a rubbish thread, you should be chuffed someone took interest.

Nah, you really just made yourself look incredibly stupid through most of it.. I suppose I can think you for that as it was a fun read

[quote="Rory_Gallagher"][quote="Turkster"]

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Nah, you really just made yourself look incredibly stupid through most of it.. I suppose I can think thank you for that as it was a fun read

[quote="Cymroglan"][quote="Rory_Gallagher"]

Turkster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Nah, you really just made yourself look incredibly stupid through most of it.. I suppose I can think thank you for that as it was a fun read

I like you

[quote="Cymroglan"][quote="Rory_Gallagher"]

Turkster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Nah, you really just made yourself look incredibly stupid through most of it.. I suppose I can think thank you for that as it was a fun read

Extremely hypocritical. You aren't called Rory the Clown for nothing you know.

[quote="Morgannwg"][quote="Cymroglan"]

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Turkster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Nah, you really just made yourself look incredibly stupid through most of it.. I suppose I can think thank you for that as it was a fun read

Extremely hypocritical. You aren't called Rory the Clown for nothing you know.

Are you still here? Seriously drop it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Are you still here? Seriously drop it.

Where is here?

As for the OP. Well the highest wages that Regions can offer players (and it will only go to certain ones such as Adam Jones, AWJ, Jamie Roberts, etc) is around one hundred and ninety grand per year. Gareth Delve was also quoted as saying players in Wales would be lucky to get half of what the England club salaries are. So the two million per Region seems a bit more believable. Rhys Thomas was rumoured to be on three hundred grand a year (I'm not sure how or why), is there an element of truth in this?

What are the Provinces budget?

Morgannwg wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Are you still here? Seriously drop it.

Where is here?

As for the OP. Well the highest wages that Regions can offer players (and it will only go to certain ones such as Adam Jones, AWJ, Jamie Roberts, etc) is around one hundred and ninety grand per year. Gareth Delve was also quoted as saying players in Wales would be lucky to get half of what the England club salaries are. So the two million per Region seems a bit more believable. Rhys Thomas was rumoured to be on three hundred grand a year (I'm not sure how or why), is there an element of truth in this?

What are the Provinces budget?

Following me about and commenting on my posts with your pathetic insults is "here" I guess.. how about you just ignore my posts from now on and stop acting like a 5 year old okay?

I am not following you around, Rory. Now do you see why I said you were hypocritical? . I got the thread back on topic but you have continued to disrupt it.

So, we believe that WRU pays about £2m per region.
RFU just over £1m per club.

Ireland & Scotland?

LondonTiger wrote:So, we believe that WRU pays about £2m per region.
RFU just over £1m per club.

If there are four regions and £6m they cant all be getting £2m?

Reading LTs post, if Leicester Tigers are turning over £19.5m plus a year they must be getting more money from somewhere. Ticket sales and shirt Sales only make that kind of profit at Manchester United.

On reading the attached post LT contributed earlier it looks as though some Premiership clubs are rewarded more than others, because they produce more England Qualified Players. In Leicester's case £3.2m as they produce a large majority of the England side.

Some clubs are also receiving undisclosed amounts from the RFU for their currently not English Qualified "Project Players" who the RFU are waiting for their three residency period to finish.

RFU and PRL are also funding English Premiership clubs academies with £4m per annum, looks like that is a divided sum.

The £12.4m divided by the PRL between the 12 Premiership Teams based on who is producing the most players for the EPS, does not include the TV money earned from Sky Broadcasting or ESPN, it is this that I imagine helps make up a large amount of the £19.5m.

LondonTiger wrote:http://www.premiershiprugby.com/downloads/PRLTermsto_RFU270307.pdf

Details of the agreement signed by PRL with RFU. this was signed in 2007 and in place for 8 years. It states that RFU will pay PRL £12.4m per year which PRL wiill distribute to the clubs.

I do not know if these payements were index linked at all.

LondonTiger wrote:So, we believe that WRU pays about £2m per region.
RFU just over £1m per club.

Ireland & Scotland?

At Ulster we get help with salaries for Central Contracted players and 4 of our NIQ players (not Danielli - Scotland pay us a sum on his contract).

My guess would be about 1.2 million but that is only a guess.

MM,

Tigers get just over £3mill from PRL (including TV money), £6mill from Rugby income and £10m from commercial.

Reading through the accounts, it looks like Season Tickets are included in commercial income.

Last season there were 12,500 season tickets sold at an average of £350, genertaing £4.4m.

On avarage 8,500 individual tickets sold across 15 home matches at an average of £28 generated £3.6m.

Remaining income (about £8m) is from Corporate Hospitality, the Events Management Company, Sponsorship and Merchandise sales.

In Scotland, the two pro-districts get a tube of S&V Pringles between them

Impressive figures on ticket sales especially the individual tickets... An Average of £28 is steep, but obviously if you sell 8,500 every other week then you have a lot of wealthy punters, I didn't know Leicester was so affluent?

Please re-read your post above, it quite clearly states that the share of the RFU's £12.4m is solely player release. further down it discusses TV funding but doesn't state how much it is and how it is distributed.

PRL own the domestic commercial rights for the AP in England, so TV money and sponsorship goes direct to them and is shared out to the clubs depending on the type of shares that they own in PRL.

I believe that England's share of European commercial rights also go direct to PRL, (but may flow through the RFU) without RFU taking a cut. I assume that prize money goes directly to the club earning it, whilst the commercial rights money is split depending on HC/ACC participation. PRL and RFU each have one seat on the board of ERC (as, I believe, is the case with RRW and WRU).

I'm not sure how Celtic League Ltd distributes the income from TV, sponsorship, etc, nor how ERC income is shared to the participants. I expect that it is over and above the c£6million WRU funding.

In the case of IRFU, it's all a bit mixed up, because the provinces seem to be virtually just separate accounting divisions of the same entity. The latest IRFU annual report stated that player and management costs in the professional game cost about 29 million euros (including the international team, of course). However, I believe that commercial income from both domestic and euro competition is retained centrally and effectively distributed within this sum. IRFU also take some of the gate money from, I think, the knockout phase of HC. I'm most certainly open to correction on this.

I think all us Lions countries should band together and try and stop the damn French buying all our players - its getting ridiculous !

The Irish Provinces keep there own accounts and are expected to balance their own books.

However as mentioned above they do receive money from the IRFU re player contracts and other factors.

So they get help but have to be indivdually prudent.

I'm not sure if its been mentioned but one factor that really helps Ireland retain players is the tax rebate that the players get if they retire in Ireland.

Thats a huge incentive for the southern based players to resist the lure of France.

The other factor is that the policy of selecting home based players for the national side is fairly strictly enforced with only a couple of exceptions being regularly selected. Players know they have a much better chance of being selected if they stay in Ireland.

The fact that Leinster and Munster in particular are regularly winning and competing for trophies obviously helps too.

At last we're on topic.

So the regions get £6 million between them, does anyone know is this £1.5 million each, or performance indexed? I think the WRU keeps the H-cup money and devides it equally between the regions. Is this on top of the £6 million or included in it? (as an intresting aside, it looks like they don't have NWQ player limits but do have to have 19 Welsh-qualified players in regional match squads by 2014).


England is harder, as it includes TV money which is performance indexed, and then payments dependent on number of England players.

Ireland difficult again, with Central contracts, but I'll trust Geoff's guess of £1.2 million for Ulster, Leinster and Munster wounld get about the same, and Connacht slightly less.

Scotland the best guess, so far is a tube of S+V Pringles between them.

and anyone got any ideas about France?

Kingshu, The AP also has the notion of 'P' shares, which has a bearing on how much 'central' money a club gets - newly promoted clubs don't have as many 'P' shares as the original 12 at the top table so suffer accordingly - they then get the right to buy them from any demoted clubs that fail to bounce back up the following year, i.e. Brizzle

Kingshu,

Munster and Leinster would be getting more than us as they have more centrally contracted players than we do.

As a counter of arguemnt to that they may well be getting less regarding NIQ salaries to compensate.

So in the end you are probably right

maestegmafia wrote:Impressive figures on ticket sales especially the individual tickets... An Average of £28 is steep, but obviously if you sell 8,500 every other week then you have a lot of wealthy punters, I didn't know Leicester was so affluent?

Please re-read your post above, it quite clearly states that the share of the RFU's £12.4m is solely player release. further down it discusses TV funding but doesn't state how much it is and how it is distributed.

Yes the £12.4m is just player release. PRL pays this out equally to the clubs.

The £3m that Tigers receive from PRL is their share of all the different things that PRL gathers money for.

Overall I reckon the RFU pays a similar amount to each club as WRU does to each region.
The TV rights are probably much better for English clubs though.

I never realised the IRFU helped out with NIQ players wages.
I always thought the NIQ have to be paid from the provinces own earnings. I suppose it compensates for them taking the H-cup money and cuts of gates.
I guess for the Pro 12 the TV money, and Pro sponsorship money (plus the money the Welsh clubs pay to the Celtic league to be able to play in the LV=Cup) is league position indexed. does this go to the team or do the Unions take a share, and is is that much money any way?