Non Welsh Players Eating up Regional Budgets...!

There are good and bad points at having foreign players in your region, if they pass on experience to youth and if they contribute masses to the cause, helping your region win trophies then good. But they are taking the place of a prospective Welsh player. They have to really be worth their while else they are wasting playing time for Welsh players and more importantly they are wasting the small budgets that the regions exist on.

There are probably also Welsh players that could be put out to pasture, so that younger Welsh players wishing to go abroad could be held on to.


Blues

Ben Blair
Tao Filise
Casey Lualala
Ma'ama Molitika
Dan Parks
Mike Patterson
Andries Pretorius
Xavier Rush
Paul Tito
Ryan Tyrrell


Dragons

Joe Bedford
Ben Castle
Tonderai Chavhanga
Nigel Hall
Jamie Smith
Andy Tuilagi
Dan Way
Tom Willis


Ospreys

Joe Bearman
Tommy Bowe
Hanno Dirksen
Ken Dowding
Khan Fotouali'i
Chauncey O'Toole
George Stowers


Scarlets

Sean Lamont
Deacon Manu
Sione Timani
Viliame Iongi

If the Welsh players are good enough they will be in the side and replace the foreigners. If not, the Welsh players aren't good enough.

You won't do the Welsh players any favours by removing non-Welsh players to make it easier for them to get in the side.

I have only voted for Pretorius and Dirksen as they are both in the process of qualifying and have expressed an interest in playing for Wales.

The rest can all go as far as I am concerned. All very mediocre players that do not add a great deal to Welsh rugby.

I am staggered at the number of foreigners in our game. How do the blues get away with 10 when the rules of the agreement they signed state 6 + 2 qualifying. All of these other than the injured Blair have played this season.

Its a crazy situation that just cannot be allowed to continue.

The regions want more money but they are clearly not holding up their side of the agreement.

The numbers should be reduced to no more 2 plus say 1 qualifying. There is just no need. That would allow the regions to sign 1 or 2 world stars but to concentrate most of their resources on Welsh talent.

The Qualifying thing is pointless. I don't see what we are to gain. Other nations have used their overseas Residency Qualified players and they fall short as they do not give as much as players who have always dreamed of being capped by their nation.

I agree though Dr Nick, that the WRU need to get this down to two or three foreign players maximum.

reduce or focus the budgets on maintaining Welsh talent at the regions.

The qualifying this is a strange one. At the Scarlets both Manu and Ben Morgan were qualifying players, Manu is now Fijian and Morgan English. What NWQ players bring though is a greater value to the side based on their increased availability. They don't spend at least half of the season unable to play for their region due to Wales squad sessions!

I agree that the number of Foreign players should be limited to say 2 or three. Add to that qualifying players who sign a legally binding contract commiting them no not playing international rugby for any side other than Wales.

I am pretty sure though that EU players would have to be outside any such agreement because of employment law.

But when Wales players are away, the Regions are playing LV=, a competition designed to give the young welsh players a chance.

In my mind Foreign players have to have a purpose, at the moment there are a good number who are just luxuries.

OK for the

Blues Keep

Pretorious - Looking to be come WQ and declared an interest (then again so did Shingler mind )

Lualala - Not got problem with the odd one or two class players in Regions as helps with development.

Dragons Keep

Chavanga - Keep him for now until Harries gets to full form.

Tuilagi - Again with Smith so injury prone lets keeps him for now.

Ospreys Keep

Bowe - Sheer class every side needs some

Dirksen - Again has shown interest in becomming qualified

Scarlets

Out of them 4 none, isn't Lamont already leaving?

Keep Morgan though

I agree Beds, same choices as myself. Though i was harsher on Dirksen and Chavanga.

Blues

Keep Paterson - He can cover 4-6 and is developing into a very good player. Will be needed to cover when there are internationals

Pretorious - Now WQ I think - Player of the season last year

Laulaula - Though, I think he is going anyway

Everyone else is due to leave soon I think


Ospreys

Tommy Bowe - Class, although strictly speaking, they dont need him anymore

Dirksen


Dragons

Chavanga

Smith


Scarlets

Lamont - although he is leaving

Ben Morgan (who isnt on your list!)

wales606 wrote:Blues

Keep Paterson - Will be needed to cover when there are internationals

When the international players are away, bar the RWC every four years, the Regions play in mostly in the LV=, a competition designed to promote young Welsh talent, not Kiwi.

Maes,

When the 6 Nations is on personally I think the LV= should be the ONLY competition running.

I agree...!

We need a competition that promotes the young lads and gives them exposure.

Though I am also a massive fan of the idea of tearing up the season calendar and starting from scratch, making it more like the Organised sensible version they have down south.

maestegmafia wrote:

wales606 wrote:Blues

Keep Paterson - Will be needed to cover when there are internationals

When the international players are away, bar the RWC every four years, the Regions play in mostly in the LV=, a competition designed to promote young Welsh talent, not Kiwi.

But there are Pro12 games during the 6Ns and the AI.

NWQ players are considered to be value for money because they are a constant in the squad all year round.

I think we need to keep Manu as well unless we can afford (doubt it) to get someone else in as a very good prop - Lamont is going, Morgan unfortunately is now NWQ but should def stay, and if we get rid of Timani we need to get our hands on a WQ lock and they seem quite expensive at the mo - none of the Scarlets NWQ players are really stopping our youngsters getting game time, except maybe Lamont.

But NWQ players have a few really important uses, they can bring you up to that next level (if you buy sensibly and sparingly), they can bring a different perspective and ideas, they can bring on youngsters extremely well and a good high profile foreigner like Bowe or Collins can inspire the fans and bring more fair-weather fans through the turnstyles.

I think we need around 6, as it's all well and good having a side full of WQ players but if these play really well and the team does well then all of your first XV are likely to be called up to Wales and because of Gats training camps their likely to be missing for half the season, then you struggle to fill the team with eager youngsters as most of them have been playing in the team in places that might have been filled with experienced NWQ players

can't pretorious qualify for Wales at some point?

Priest,

I agree that there is a place for NWQ players but they have to be of the highest order. For a long time now all Regions have been guilty of buying dross which have kept young Welsh players out of the sides.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:can't pretorious qualify for Wales at some point?

Qualifies this summer

I agree to a certain extent - and the Dragons have made some particularly bad NWQ signings but then I doubt they could attract a Rush, a Bowe or a Lyons to their region - also although the Scarlets have made some shocking NWQ signings in the past (lets not go there!) but recently I think we've had it spot on - King gave us that extra bit of class and improved no end our centres such as JD2, Maule, Williams, Warren, Reynolds... Lyons did the same with Turnbull, Morgan and McCusker and then they both left once these players came to the fro, we desperately needed an experienced prop in Manu and still need him for another season until Gardiner comes through, and Lamont has given us that class, experience and versatility that we badly needed - we've signed Timani as there weren't many WQ options and I imagine he was reasonably cheap and Ionghi is just covering for players like North, Lamont, Liam Williams not taking their place but covering for when their on int duty.

Look at the Blues when they won the cup they had amazing NWQ players like Blair, Rush, Molitika, Lualua and prob wouldn't have won the cup without them - though they should have gotten rid of most of them last season and replaced them with a mixture of young WQ players and a sprinkling of experience (like Delve and a few NWQ players)

But if the Welsh players these are keeping out were better they would be playing instead of the NWQ, you can blame the NWQ for the lack of good players behind them.
Or would you like to see 4 sides of 22 all Welsh players, some good some average and some complete carp, but all welsh. Do you think that this would help or hinder the national team?

to an extent we have to have them, because if the Blues have a fantastic season and win the league and heinaken cup, and the other 3 regions are shocking, then Wales are pretty much going to take 20+ players from the Blues.
In previous seasons the Ospreys had a lot of Welsh boys and were the best Welsh team, and Wales decimated them.
I dont like the signing of non Welsh players but you have to have a steady group of players who are always there to keep consistency.

maestegmafia wrote:But when Wales players are away, the Regions are playing LV=, a competition designed to give the young welsh players a chance.

In my mind Foreign players have to have a purpose, at the moment there are a good number who are just luxuries.

If that was true I wouldn't mind but its not. This season the Regions lost their players for the WC and a rest period afterwards, then 2 weeks for the worthless Australia game which made not only prevented them fielding strong teams in the Rabo but also messed up their preparation for the Heineken. The welsh squad players have missed half of the Rabo games due to Wales calls!

SafeAsMilk wrote:If the Welsh players are good enough they will be in the side and replace the foreigners. If not, the Welsh players aren't good enough.

You won't do the Welsh players any favours by removing non-Welsh players to make it easier for them to get in the side.

Correct and the irony is that limiting the numbers of non Welsh qualified players has allowed average/mediocre Welsh players to command higher salaries. As a Cardiff supporter I couldn't care less what a player's nationality is as long as they are good enough to wear the jersey.

In that case if a region wants to go over the quota then they should receive less money from the WRU.

doctornickolas wrote:I have only voted for Pretorius and Dirksen as they are both in the process of qualifying and have expressed an interest in playing for Wales.

The rest can all go as far as I am concerned. All very mediocre players that do not add a great deal to Welsh rugby.

I am staggered at the number of foreigners in our game. How do the blues get away with 10 when the rules of the agreement they signed state 6 + 2 qualifying. All of these other than the injured Blair have played this season.

Its a crazy situation that just cannot be allowed to continue.

The regions want more money but they are clearly not holding up their side of the agreement.

The numbers should be reduced to no more 2 plus say 1 qualifying. There is just no need. That would allow the regions to sign 1 or 2 world stars but to concentrate most of their resources on Welsh talent.

You should read the WRU/RRW participation agreement and you wouldn't be staggered. Here is a snippet;

"Match squads for all Regional games are intended to contain on average at least 17 players qualified to play for Wales out of the 22 or 23 named from now on.

agreement that every Regional match squad is intended to contain an average of at least 17 Welsh qualified players from now on, increasing to at least 19 over the term of the agreement."

So in fact the Welsh sides can have as many NWQ on their books as they like. It's how they deploy them that counts.

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/8688.php

Cymroglan wrote:In that case if a region wants to go over the quota then they should receive less money from the WRU.

Read the participation agreement.

agreement that a six non Welsh qualified player plus two 'time serving player' limit in Regional squads will be honoured. This is intended to fall to a minimum total of six including 'time serving players' by season 2013/14


I still stand by what I said.

Knackeredknees wrote:But if the Welsh players these are keeping out were better they would be playing instead of the NWQ, you can blame the NWQ for the lack of good players behind them.
Or would you like to see 4 sides of 22 all Welsh players, some good some average and some complete carp, but all welsh. Do you think that this would help or hinder the national team?

Knackeredknees;
It appears to me that some Welsh rugby fans have zero allegiance to any club side. It's all Wales to them and that's all that matters. They don't understand that the 4 Welsh pro sides are in fact independent businesses trying to make a go of it, but as long as all the players are Welsh even if they are rubbish it doesn't matter to them.

Of course it matters to people if the regions do well .But if the regions take the money off the the WRU then they should keep to the quota.
If they want to go over the quota then they should be penalised for it.
You cant have one or two regions working within the rules and others ignoring it..
For argument sake if the Blues want ten foreign players then the Blues should find the means to pay for them.
If the regions agree to the quota system then they should abide by it.

Cymroglan wrote:agreement that a six non Welsh qualified player plus two 'time serving player' limit in Regional squads will be honoured. This is intended to fall to a minimum total of six including 'time serving players' by season 2013/14


I still stand by what I said.

"Match squads for all Regional games are intended to contain on average at least 17 players qualified to play for Wales out of the 22 or 23 named from now on."

It concerns average matchday squads not how many NWQ's each Welsh side have on their books.

Yes it does say average but it does also say you cant have more than 6+2 decreasing to total of six including 'time serving players' by season 2013/14 in your squad.

The limit has been set

Cymroglan wrote:Yes it does say average but it does also say you cant have more than 6+2 decreasing to total of six including 'time serving players' by season 2013/14 in your squad.

The limit has been set

Yes the limit has been set; for the average matchday squad, so what is your beef?

The beef ? 6+2 is the maximum any region can have if they want to stay within the quota.
You give the impression that you can change the names of the players that you select as your 6+2 from one week to the next.

I only voted for Timani for the Scarlets (he has been amazing for us this season), and I would have voted for Ben Morgan had he been on the list. The other players I believe the Scarlets could do without.

Timani is key to us as we are low on depth in the 2nd row, and he adds the grunt and hard graft we need there.

Cymroglan wrote:The beef ? 6+2 is the maximum any region can have if they want to stay within the quota.
You give the impression that you can change the names of the players that you select as your 6+2 from one week to the next.

It concerns matchday squads of 22/23 players not the whole squad of XX no. of players.

Yes it concerns every player at the region. 6+2 is the maximum you can have if you want to stay within the quota.

Cymroglan wrote:Yes it concerns every player at the region. 6+2 is the maximum you can have if you want to stay within the quota.

So there is no problem then and nobody is breaking the agreement. Thank god for that.

But the Blues have 10 Cardiff Dave

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:But if the Welsh players these are keeping out were better they would be playing instead of the NWQ, you can blame the NWQ for the lack of good players behind them.
Or would you like to see 4 sides of 22 all Welsh players, some good some average and some complete carp, but all welsh. Do you think that this would help or hinder the national team?

Knackeredknees;
It appears to me that some Welsh rugby fans have zero allegiance to any club side. It's all Wales to them and that's all that matters. They don't understand that the 4 Welsh pro sides are in fact independent businesses trying to make a go of it, but as long as all the players are Welsh even if they are rubbish it doesn't matter to them.

To a degree your summation is accurate. We all have our preferred region or regions but due to their emergence so recently it is hard to have the passion for them that a soccer fan has for their club.

It will change over ten years and the regions will become far more important to their fans, as in ten years the youngest generation will only have known rugby with the regions in place.

The economic model is the most important part of this and really what this is about. The welsh regions will continue to exist but they must become more financially efficient than they are. They are not able to afford to buy in expensive International talent like Toulon, like they used too, because they don't make enough money to survive if they do.

Their only answer is to copy what scarlets have found works and jettison as many NWQ players as is possible and concentrate on the academy players they have already been producing.

This works for the regions and for Wales.

So I think it is vitally important that we look to reduce the Non Welsh players taking up wages, increase the amount of young Welsh players, get behind our regions and make Welsh rugby sustainable at all levels.

I remember a couple of years ago there was an uproar about how the NWQ players were stifling the welsh back row development...now look where we are.

IronMike wrote:I remember a couple of years ago there was an uproar about how the NWQ players were stifling the welsh back row development...now look where we are.

That is a very good point but was that due to the NwQs or to the academies?

I guess it depends on how the NWQs are used. If they're all first choice, then there's a problem. If they're generally cover players then that's fine IMO. You've listed the following players as NWQs at the Dragons, but I'd say only Chavanga is first choice and possibly Tuilagi may become first choice in future but I see him having more of an impact role off the bench. Joe Bedford is second choice to Wayne Evans. Dan Way is English but a'project player' so will be WQ in a couple of years. Ben Castle I'd say has fallen down the pecking order to the likes of Dan Way, Nathan Williams/Buck, and I get the feeling he'll be offloaded at the end of his contract because he's brought nothing. Nigel Hall has retired though injury. Jamie Smith I don't think has ever played yet, but Martyn Thomas is clearly 1st choice 15. Tom Willis is always injured and is behind Lloyd Burns and we've still got Steve Jones who played well against the O's and Rhys Buckley is coming through. I think Willis, like Castle, will be offloaded soon.

Joe Bedford
Ben Castle
Tonderai Chavhanga
Nigel Hall
Jamie Smith
Andy Tuilagi
Dan Way
Tom Willis

So, at the Dragons I'm not too worried about the foreign contingent as they're either not really first choice (except Chav) and are therefore not blocking the development of others.

So if these players are not first choice and not that much better than the home grown talent then in a way they are eating into the budget.
I don't mind the regions having NWQ players as long as they are quality players but more often than not they are just average players.
Every region should have enough players in their ranks to cover International call-ups and that's the time the fringe players should get game time supported by two or three quality NWQ players but at the moment there are far to many NWQ's just making up the numbers.

Two sides to every coin.

maestegmafia wrote:To a degree your summation is accurate. We all have our preferred region or regions but due to their emergence so recently it is hard to have the passion for them that a soccer fan has for their club.

It will change over ten years and the regions will become far more important to their fans, as in ten years the youngest generation will only have known rugby with the regions in place.

I think thats a great statement, I'm a rugby fan, and I have no problem going to watch any region play, I like the Ospreys first, followed by the Dragons but I am quite happy to go locally and see the Scarlets and Blues play if I am in the mood.

Would a Manchester United football fan, go and see Manchester City, Blackburn or Liverpool? No because they hate them, but the rivalries and hatreds amongst the Welsh teams haven't really developed properly yet. The only one, is the Scarlets seem to try and annoy the Ospreys and they have a large element who dislike us, but the Ospreys are more interested in the Blues than the Scarlets and tend to look at them as the annoying kid next door instead of a serious threat.

Alyn - not any O's fans I've ever met feel like that. The dislike they feel towards the Scarlets is incredible, much more then I've seen displayed by us the other way!

Im with Alyn on this one, depends whether your O's fans are Swansea boys, Bridgend or from up the valleys.

maestegmafia wrote:Im with Alyn on this one, depends whether your O's fans are Swansea boys, Bridgend or from up the valleys.

That's probably the sensible conclusion, I'm from Bridgend which is next door to Cardiff and am quite away from Llanelli, but the Cardiff / Swansea rivalry is greater than the Swansea V Llanelli one.
Everyone guns for the 2 big cities, even each other given half a chance!

Scarlets aren't too fussed about the Blues I don't; think.

We love beating the O's the most, then the Dragons, then the Blues I reckon.

rugbydreamer wrote:Scarlets aren't too fussed about the Blues I don't; think.

We love beating the O's the most, then the Dragons, then the Blues I reckon.

I think the Ospreys dislike the Blues the most, then the Scarlets then the Dragons, although Ospreys fans are starting to get irritated with the Dragons as we can't seem to beat them!

AlynDavies wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Im with Alyn on this one, depends whether your O's fans are Swansea boys, Bridgend or from up the valleys.

That's probably the sensible conclusion, I'm from Bridgend which is next door to Cardiff and am quite away from Llanelli, but the Cardiff / Swansea rivalry is greater than the Swansea V Llanelli one.
Everyone guns for the 2 big cities, even each other given half a chance!

The old Bridgend vs Cardiff games used to be good, as were Bridgend vs Maesteg boxing day matches... Neath Aberavon for me... Always a great game...!