Have the wars caught up with Froch?

I was reading this on ESPN from Buncey about Froch. Seem a relevent question. Buncey certainly seems to think the wars have caught up.


I will paste it for those with limited 'work' internet access.

Froch fading after too many wars

Steve Bunce December 20, 2011

Froch had a really bad night against Andre Ward in their Super Six final clash on Saturday - and that was compounded by a brilliant performance from Ward, who was probably as good as he has ever been in the ring.

I think from round four or five onwards Froch was merely going through the motions because he knew he couldn't win: he was doing what he usually does, but it was more restrained than usual.

It was a strange night - even Ward, who added the WBC title to the WBA strap he already held, didn't expect to dominate like that. He said himself he couldn't believe how slow Carl was.

The best Carl Froch - the clever Froch that we saw beat Arthur Abraham on points last year - could have pushed Ward a bit more. But at the weekend nothing seemed to work.

There's only one thing you can do when the guy is fast and hitting you with punches you're not seeing: you've got to somehow get close and try to catch him. If you're not quick enough to do that then it doesn't matter how many plans you've got, you're in big trouble.

I think all the hard, long 12-round fights have finally taken their toll on Carl - there was a lot missing from him the other night. He needs to have an easy fight next, it's that simple. The reason Ricky Hatton and Joe Calzaghe stayed champions for years is that they did what fighters have done since boxing started: allowed their bodies to recover. Carl needs to let his body recover.

He should come back to Nottingham and have a simple fight, against anybody he likes, to kick off 2012. It makes no difference who he faces - no-one can remember the guy Nigel Benn fought after Gerald McClellan, no-one can remember the guy Chris Eubank fought after he beat Michael Watson for the second time, because no-one cares.

Bute talk ridiculous
The idea Froch will now meet Lucian Bute, the unbeaten IBF champion, is faintly ridiculous; Bute has bigger fish to fry and is being geared to fight Ward. Promoter Eddie Hearn's comments about Froch v Bute are just him trying to put a positive spin on Saturday's disappointment. They are perfectly acceptable under the circumstances.

Carl will get a chance to fight for a world title again, however. Mikkel Kessler, who goes for the WBO belt against Robert Stieglitz in April, has said he'll come to Nottingham to meet Froch - and that's a clash that will do phenomenal business. Kessler beat Froch on a unanimous decision when they met in 2010. Kessler against Froch is a better fight than Froch against Bute.

Meanwhile Ward has leapt up the pound-for-pound rankings, and if he were to beat Bute next year it would put him right at the top. He's also got the possibility of meeting Bernard Hopkins at some point: the veteran was ringside in Atlantic City for a reason. However, Hopkins has insisted that he is too close to Ward to fight him.

It might be an ugly fight, but the American public love ugly fights on pay-per-view. Don't rule it out.

Not sure if it has yet, but I think it will if he has too many more. That's why I'd rather see him retire now, as both the Kessler and Bute fights could be wars and I could see him taking a lot of punishment.

I think there may be a bit of truth to it but i think it's too easy to say this is the reason froch's lost. Froch did all he could do vs a better boxer and if you watch the fight you see that froch was the stronger in the final 2 rounds. Don't forget he is 34, thats why he was so slow.

He should have a tune-up fight in nottingham as you know that pascal, bute, kessler won't fight him there

Froch didnt lose because of the wear and tear, i agree, but was re watching the Dirrell fight and then the Ward fight (work is slow) and i do see some differences.

Froch was quicker to begin with two years ago, V Dirrell he pushes him back in first two round with straight rights to the body and left jabs (not all were hitting obviously but the were the right attack IMO to force Direll back and try slow him down with body shots)

He also seemed a lot less bulky which may have made him quicker too.

He did seem a lot more stiff v Ward to me, and slower. I think the wars coupled with age are taking their tole on him, as they would anyone, but that said, he still ebats Kessler in rematch in NOtts IMO. Between Kess eyes and hands he is a UD waiting to happen. That is the fight, forget Bute, wait on Kessler in the summer Frochy, then retire.

Ward has made zero noises about wanting Bute as far as i know, i think he's even dismissed that fight in a few quotes.

Not sure who would be bigger for Bute to fight?

Kessler, been inactive for how long?
Dirrell, been forgotten about
Abraham, been exposed if you just box him

Froch still has momentum as most appreciate he's been through one helluva' list of fighters, getting beaten by one guy doesn't necessarily mean the end.. Although i would like to see him take an extra couple of months off.

coxy0001 wrote:Ward has made zero noises about wanting Bute as far as i know, i think he's even dismissed that fight in a few quotes.

Not sure who would be bigger for Bute to fight?

Kessler, been inactive for how long?
Dirrell, been forgotten about
Abraham, been exposed if you just box him

Froch still has momentum as most appreciate he's been through one helluva' list of fighters, getting beaten by one guy doesn't necessarily mean the end.. Although i would like to see him take an extra couple of months off.

6 months and that's because Stieglitz got injured.

Kessler will come to Notts, i am convinved, Froch just has to hold out for it. The Hearns will want to start making money from Froch before he retires (they wont of got anything form tale end of S6) so that may direct things.

SugarRayRussell wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Ward has made zero noises about wanting Bute as far as i know, i think he's even dismissed that fight in a few quotes.

Not sure who would be bigger for Bute to fight?

Kessler, been inactive for how long?
Dirrell, been forgotten about
Abraham, been exposed if you just box him

Froch still has momentum as most appreciate he's been through one helluva' list of fighters, getting beaten by one guy doesn't necessarily mean the end.. Although i would like to see him take an extra couple of months off.

6 months and that's because Stieglitz got injured.

Reworded to make more sense - How long has he been out of the world scene for against notable opponents.

alma wrote:"The reason Ricky Hatton and Joe Calzaghe stayed champions for years is that they did what fighters have done since boxing started: allowed their bodies to recover"

I always thought Hatton just went down the pub between fights

All those Kebabs gave his body comfort though.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

alma wrote:"The reason Ricky Hatton and Joe Calzaghe stayed champions for years is that they did what fighters have done since boxing started: allowed their bodies to recover"

I always thought Hatton just went down the pub between fights

All those Kebabs gave his body comfort though.

and plenty of padding

What "wars" has he been in recently??

Pascal was a war, granted.

Taylor did little after flooring carl, and gassed late.

Dirrel barely threw a punch before round 8/9

I wouldnt describe the Kessler foght as a war as such, certainly nothing close to a war against Abraham and Johnson was pretty straight forward.

He took alot of shots from Ward, who showed he is not a power puncher as he cuoldnt even stun froch.

I am a froch fan, and respect the run against top level fighters he has been on, but I do not buy the warrior myth, and think that the whole perception of him is actually to his detrement as someone who will walk through punches to land his own, which is NOT his strenght.

If only he'd had the coach to teach him a good solid defence to go with that chin and a better jab he would have been a much better fighter IMO.

Taylor did little after flooring carl, and gassed late.

Froch had to walk through alot of shots to get to his man.

Dirrel barely threw a punch before round 8/9

That was one of the most rough and tumble fights of that year.

I wouldnt describe the Kessler foght as a war as such, certainly nothing close to a war against Abraham and Johnson was pretty straight forward.

Kessler fight was on most peoples FOTY, please rewatch the fight as both traded with some massive shots.

Johnson had his success as well and Froch left himself open (as usual) for counters galore. And lets net forget Johnson can bang.

Froch takes shots to get his off, as a result he's usually in some entertaining fights. Bearing in mind he seldom employs anything that could resemble a defence puts him in the warrior category for me.

Dirrel barely threw a punch before round 8/9

That was one of the most rough and tumble fights of that year.

I remember it a little different. I remember Frochs tactic being "take dirrels head off" and dirrels response was "moe out of the way, forget about fighting back"

I wouldnt describe the Kessler foght as a war as such, certainly nothing close to a war against Abraham and Johnson was pretty straight forward.

Kessler fight was on most peoples FOTY, please rewatch the fight as both traded with some massive shots.

I will re-watch, i do remember the fight and it was exactly what I imagined before hand, but I would consider wars to involve knockdowns or at least shaky moments, where the big shots do real obvious damage, which there wasnt in this one.

Johnson had his success as well and Froch left himself open (as usual) for counters galore. And lets net forget Johnson can bang.

Froch takes shots to get his off, as a result he's usually in some entertaining fights. Bearing in mind he seldom employs anything that could resemble a defence puts him in the warrior category for me.[/quote]

I think a warrior should be given to someone who at least tries to defend. To me he is just poor defensively, not a warrior. but its only opinions! haha

for instance i would call marquez a warrior...or morales..

Just because they aren't as good defensively doesn't mean they aren't warriors.

Jorge Arce's defense quite literally is non existant however he most certainly is in the warrior section for me.

Agree with about two thrids of the article in that Froch should have an easier fight only I'd like these easier fights coming in the form of WBC/WBA ranked opponents, around 2 or 3 and hope Ward is still around in the super middle division afterwards to force a rematch.

In terms of trying to secure greatness there's no point in Froch chasing Bute/Kessler, Ward is the main man and Froch should lick his wounds and plot his revenge. I'm not a big fan of world title fight losers getting an immediate shot at redemption and think this is why David Haye deserves to be left out in the cold. They should work their way back in contention.

Mind you if Froch is looking for a couple of big pay days before he packs it in then I guess it's Kessler/Bute. It won't get him into the HOF though.

Boon, I know you hate Froch, so I'm sure you'll understand people are going to be a bit sceptical when you say anything constructive on Froch. Why not get two belts back and then start making noises about wanting to be number one again?

cave_man_KO wrote:What "wars" has he been in recently??

Pascal was a war, granted.

Taylor did little after flooring carl, and gassed late.

Dirrel barely threw a punch before round 8/9

I wouldnt describe the Kessler foght as a war as such, certainly nothing close to a war against Abraham and Johnson was pretty straight forward.

He took alot of shots from Ward, who showed he is not a power puncher as he cuoldnt even stun froch.

I am a froch fan, and respect the run against top level fighters he has been on, but I do not buy the warrior myth, and think that the whole perception of him is actually to his detrement as someone who will walk through punches to land his own, which is NOT his strenght.

If only he'd had the coach to teach him a good solid defence to go with that chin and a better jab he would have been a much better fighter IMO.

Yeah, i am dismissing this opinion. Kessler wasn't a war????? What is wrong with you? Even Johnson peppered Froch all night!!!

Pascal/Froch - War
Taylor/Froch - Froch took heaps of shots and was put down for the only ever time but managed to drag his way back.
Dirrell/Froch - One of the lesser fights but was still a physical battle and Froch still took a fair few good ones but it was the grabbing and throwing that made it very physical.
Froch/Kessler - I seriously cannot believ you are suggesting that isn't a war, you are a deluded man, go rewatch that whole fight please.
Froch/Johnson - Took huge right hands off a massive SMW with one punch knockout power for a long time, was a tough hard fight.

Hmm, not many wars then...

Herman Jaggery wrote:Boon, I know you hate Froch, so I'm sure you'll understand people are going to be a bit sceptical when you say anything constructive on Froch. Why not get two belts back and then start making noises about wanting to be number one again?

If you mean I hate it when people have a massively inflated sense of how good they are at something then yes I guess I hate Froch. But seriously, would it be healthy for Froch to go straight after Bute, and in Canada! Talk of a two fight series between the two, Mikkel Kessler again!

Even if Froch beats Kessler, Ward will show little interest as he beat Kessler himself. Bute in Canada is a serious proposition and one I think he won't win unless he knocks him out. I think he needs to go away and lick his wounds and take an easier fight in about 4 months time with a medium term view of getting Ward again. Why is that not being constructive?

Not sure he should go near Ward again, he's horribly all wrong for him stylistically.. Way too good defensively and has serious speed to counter.

Bute, although a fine boxer, is much easier to hit and doesn't possess half of Wards defensive skills or speed. It's a winnable fight, if he takes it then i for one would applaud him

A rematch against Brian Magee for the WBA intirim belt might be a good homecoming party

Super D Boon wrote:

Herman Jaggery wrote:Boon, I know you hate Froch, so I'm sure you'll understand people are going to be a bit sceptical when you say anything constructive on Froch. Why not get two belts back and then start making noises about wanting to be number one again?

If you mean I hate it when people have a massively inflated sense of how good they are at something then yes I guess I hate Froch. But seriously, would it be healthy for Froch to go straight after Bute, and in Canada! Talk of a two fight series between the two, Mikkel Kessler again!

Even if Froch beats Kessler, Ward will show little interest as he beat Kessler himself. Bute in Canada is a serious proposition and one I think he won't win unless he knocks him out. I think he needs to go away and lick his wounds and take an easier fight in about 4 months time with a medium term view of getting Ward again. Why is that not being constructive?

Are you sure that's the real reason you hate Carl Boon?



Seriously though, if Carl is up for Bute, that's great, but I wouldn't mind seeing Ward fight Bute either.

watched a lot of the build up to the Froch and Ward fight, and i was convinced before the fight that Carl was looking worse for wear.
People are often too quick to say a fighter is punch drunk, as soon as he mispronounces a word in an interview, and i dont think Carl is as bad as that. But there was certainly something about him that made him look much less healthy than a couple of years ago. I know he has a bad nose and dodgy ears already, but he still looked like he had taken a few beatings

I think as someone said above that stylistically ward is wrong for froch. But I think there is a chance that he could have overtrained for the fight. With it being presponed since October, there is every chance that Froch stayed in training camp.
I know he lives clean and trains all year around,but that's a little different to being in training camp. He looked tight, and slugish, with his age, I think he needs a long rest and an easy home coming fight.
Then for me have a stab at Kessler or Bute, if he loses either, retire, he's been a great servent to the sport, but his style is not condusive to longevity,clean living or not, he gets hit on the head too often. He's a warrior, but I'd prefer not to see him go out on his sword.

Got to be honest i thought he looked drained, a bit ghostly, like Hatton v Pac. Never seen that before with Froch. wonder if a move to LH for his next fight would be a good move. Not for a campaign, just for one fight. Would agree though with what others have said, a bit of a healing time might just be what's best now.

Sorry guys but I disagree.
Froch was beaten by a skilled slick boxer at the top of his game - we often say it speed kills.
I also don't believe a gimme fight is the way to go.
If, and I say if as you guys seem to be saying, the wars and time are catching up with him delaying things wont make it any better, only worse.
Froch has fought all big fights lately, I believe he would struggle to commit and/or get up for a lesser fight.
It should be Bute next, then if he wins Kessler, which would in all likelihood be an IBF and WBO unification. This would then give him bargaining for a rematch with Ward if he wants it.
If he revenges against Kessler, I think he will believe he can learn from his loss to Ward and avenge that defeat too. He probably won't but if he believes that why not a rematch.
Then a couple of fights at LHW Pascal and Cleverley before retiring.

That run of opponents on top of his recent ones would perhaps be the toughest run in history?

I completely disagree that the wars have caught up with him just yet!!

"I think from round four or five onwards Froch was merely going through the motions because he knew he couldn't win: he was doing what he usually does, but it was more restrained than usual. "

Disagree with this as Froch's best rounds came in rounds 9-12, especially 11 and 12 where he looked stronger and was chasing Ward around the ring, didn't look like a man going through the motions!!

"It was a strange night - even Ward, who added the WBC title to the WBA strap he already held, didn't expect to dominate like that. He said himself he couldn't believe how slow Carl was. "

I know I'm probably a bit biased here but I disagree with the word dominate in this fight. Yes Ward won the rounds to win but its not like he won every second of every round. Froch pushed him all the way but Ward was just too slick quick and accurate.

"The best Carl Froch - the clever Froch that we saw beat Arthur Abraham on points last year - could have pushed Ward a bit more. But at the weekend nothing seemed to work."

Disagree with this as Ward is a completely different fighter to Abraham. Froch is always going to look slow against quick fighters like Taylor, Dirrell and Ward, but he'll look quick against slower fighters like Abraham and Johnson, its as simple as that. Froch to me didn't look any slower than he did against Johnson, he was just simply up against a slick fighter who wasn't going to be a stationary target for him to look good against.

Froch took some great looking shots from Ward, especially those left hooks, but he barely blinked let alone get rocked.

He threw almost 700 punches (only 24% landing) despite the punishment he was taking which again suggests to me he wasn't in bad condition, but probably had bad tactics in trying to outbox Ward, which just wasn't going to happen.

Bute definitely should be next if a deal can be agreed, he is quick but doesn't have the speed or ring intelligence of Ward, doesn't deploy clinching and holding tactics, (which for me was one of the main reasons Froch couldn't get to grips and find his rhythm against Ward) and for me is a winnable but tough fight as he definitely punches harder than Ward.

Hopefully Froch works on his defence and realises that he may be able to take hard shots, it will also cost him rounds against slick fighters that will land scoring shots on him. He can still improve!!

Don't think it's in Frochs nature to take an easy fight, he'll look to bounce right back against either Kessler or Bute and I commend him for that, at his age there's little point in having filler fights, get in there with the best and try as hard as you can.

seanus!!!!!! woohoo!!!

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Don't think it's in Frochs nature to take an easy fight, he'll look to bounce right back against either Kessler or Bute and I commend him for that, at his age there's little point in having filler fights, get in there with the best and try as hard as you can.

Here here.

I hate it that every time some fighters lose, they become past it or washed up. Froch lost to an extremely talented fighter in Ward. At no stage in his career would he have beaten Ward.

For once Az i agree with you. Stylistically Ward was all wrong for Froch (most thought he'd be too good, yours included and i'm a big fan of Froch), the same way Frazier loses to Foreman every time, Hatton loses to Pacquiao every time and so forth.

He isn't showing obvious signs of being shot. He still threw 700 punches or so. He didn't even blink when Ward nailed him. He was just up against a guy too good to catch and too quick n slick to outbox.

Definately want to see him in with Bute, he's 34 and the tourny has made him a big name in the boxing scene. TV companies will have him because he's seldom in dull fights and come forwards and fans will turn up to see him fight because of the same reason.

I think Froch still has plenty to give. Its hard to know when its one fight too many until it actually happens. Were Froch to lose or struggle with an opponent well below him, or start hitting the deck more in fights the writing would be on the wall but no real evidence of that so far. Like most I think he just lost to a better fighter in Ward and has nothing to apologize for that.

I would bet though, were he to lose to Bute, there will be alot of people saying it was because Froch was washed up.

Like Manos said until he goes in the ring and looks past it we won't know. I don't think that was the case in his last fight. Ward exposed Froch's flaws. Froch was always slow and Ward made him look even more so. His defence has never been that good. Remember all they big right hands he took off Jonson?

Speed and movement is Forch's nemesis. He struggled with Dirrell and look at what Ward did to him. If I was Eddie Hearn I would be tempted to keep Froch away from Bute unless the money is to good to refuse. Bute has the speed and movement that will trouble Froch.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Pascal/Froch - War
Taylor/Froch - Froch took heaps of shots and was put down for the only ever time but managed to drag his way back.
Dirrell/Froch - One of the lesser fights but was still a physical battle and Froch still took a fair few good ones but it was the grabbing and throwing that made it very physical.
Froch/Kessler - I seriously cannot believ you are suggesting that isn't a war, you are a deluded man, go rewatch that whole fight please.
Froch/Johnson - Took huge right hands off a massive SMW with one punch knockout power for a long time, was a tough hard fight.

Hmm, not many wars then...

When was the last time Johson had one punch knock out power??

THere is no way on earth the dirrel fight was a war, a bit physical but this is boxing not tickling. there was nothing above the ordinary he had to endure. The kessler one i stand by what I said, in that I wouldnt describe it as a war, not doubting there were some big shots landed by both men and it was the toughest physical fight.

Johson could land his right hand at will but had zero effect on Froch all night. I dont care what he used to do, Id bet he used to sh*t himself in nappies, what has that got to do with what he does presently? nothing...

For me froch is his own worst enemy, and seems to employ the right tactics at the wrong time. he believes his stregnths are different from what they are.

Granted this is an outside observation, I dont know the bloke or train with him, and I am a fan.

I just dont beleive he has been in "wars"

When was the last time Johson had one punch knock out power??

When he knocked out Green maybe?

I think if you were to look at Frochs whole career, to be fair, hes not the most difficult guy to hit - even had a few scraps at domestic level. Would say the Pascal and Kessler fights were "career shortners" to some extent and Johnson couldnt miss him with overhand right so he has taken his share of punishment.

I havent seen any noticeable decline though. He has a good chin and is very durable so I think we will know when times up as it should start show.

coxy0001 wrote:

When was the last time Johson had one punch knock out power??

When he knocked out Green maybe?

Or when he kayoed RJJ with one concussive punch. That was a very destructive knockout.

coxy0001 wrote:

When was the last time Johson had one punch knock out power??

When he knocked out Green maybe?

hahaha

Where do they dream this stuff up Coxarooooo!

manos de piedra wrote:I think if you were to look at Frochs whole career, to be fair, hes not the most difficult guy to hit - even had a few scraps at domestic level. Would say the Pascal and Kessler fights were "career shortners" to some extent and Johnson couldnt miss him with overhand right so he has taken his share of punishment.

I havent seen any noticeable decline though. He has a good chin and is very durable so I think we will know when times up as it should start show.

True, i think he has slowed, but who can say whether that is age or too many wars. Still thinks he beats Kess in rematch, that is still a 50-50 fight but Kessler with his hand,eye injuries, Froch with his tough battles ont he road. Fair and even match up.