The Finished Article (Ali)

Hello. Here’s a question I’ve been pondering:

If the Cassius Clay that dominated Liston fought the Ali that defied the odds against Foreman, who would win? Is it automatically assumed that the 22-year old upstart would have too much for the 32-year old veteran, or does the Foreman fight prove that wiliness comes from experience?

Of course, such a hypothetical matchup would be unique in the fact that Clay’s experiences would also be those of Ali’s and, if anything, weigh more favourably for the older version of the man. Perhaps then, it’s not a question about Clay’s youth vs. Ali’s experience, but more about pinpointing when Ali was at his most dangerous as a fighter – the finished article, if you like.

So simply put, if you had to ascertain precisely at which point in his career Ali/Clay was at his most dangerous, when would this be and why?

Before I address the article, MediaCat, I'd just like to extend a warm welcome aboard. Always enjoyed your contributions over at the Beeb, and I look forward to your input here.

Good question I think the younger Ali had more speed but the older Ali had more skill the older Ali destroyed Foreman I reckon I would pick him lets not forget he also beat Frazier. Could be a close fight lol.

For what it is worth the two opponents who fought him pre and post exile were both posed the question of who was the better fighter in Huasers book on Ali and both said as an opponent the pre exile was much the tougher, as you simply could not catch him with anything worthwhile, as he slowed down a step whilst he obviously developed many other assets at least you could land, and in the heavyweights if you can land you have a chance.

For me the young version beats the older version of Ali, too mobile for the older man. Around 66-67 before the ban was when he was at his best.

I think you'd have to fancy the Ali that beat Terrell (probably his most complete performance) to beat any verison of the post-exile Ali. Can't see the slower version of Ali catching the more youthful version and I think he would be getting hit with plenty of shots before he could efefcively counter.

Would give it to pre-exile Ali by about 4 rounds over 15.

As windy said, good tp see you on here, mediacat.

Thanks for the greetings, HumanWindmill and Superflyweight. I think all you guys have done really well with this site and it's great to see some familiar names.

MediaCat, great to see you over here Always a creator of interesting and thought provoking articles back at the BBC.

Ali himself once said that the younger version wins, too, I believe.

Ayup MediaCat, good to see you've made the switch over, and my compliments for the article, too.

It's incredible, really, how Ali was so successful in the seventies after his lay off and after losing so much of his greatest asset (namely, greased lightning speed). I think we'd also have to conclude that the competition he faced in his 'second incarnation' was, on the whole, better to that which he faced in his first reign.

And yet despite all of that, I'd still favour the pre-exile version of him to outscore the older version by a handy margin. To me, one of the key aspects to consider is, rather than who he beat in the seventies, who he struggled with. For instance, I just can't see the Ali of 1964-1967 having absolute hell with Norton three times. Nor do I think he'd have lost to Frazier or needed to drag up every single ounce of his own being to scrape past him on the other two occasions, and I say that knowing fully well what a superb fighter Smokin' Joe was. Needless to say, I doubt that the likes of Lyle would have had so much joy against a pre-exile Ali, too.

The sixties version of Ali was so blisteringly fast with his combinations - the seventies version had trouble evading punches, particularly the jab. The sixties version had the fleeting footwork of a Lightweight - the seventies version often had to hold his ground and trade as he could no longer dance around the parameters of the ring. It's a testament to Ali's greatness that he overcame such problems to still have a second career, so to speak, which on its own would put him up there with the elite Heavyweights. But I just don't see those weaknesses in the Ali of 1964-1967.

I'd pick a twenty-two year old Ali to win on the cards by something along the lines of 145-140 against a thirty-two year old version, but it's a fascinating thought all the same.

Hello, Fists and Chris. If only the heavies were as exciting nowadays. I do like the Klitschko brothers, mind you, but Vitali vs Dereck just isn't really catching my imagination.

Waingro wrote:Good question I think the younger Ali had more speed but the older Ali had more skill the older Ali destroyed Foreman I reckon I would pick him lets not forget he also beat Frazier. Could be a close fight lol.

FFS, its not every losing fighter that gets destroyed.

I'd take Cassius Clay to beat Muhammad Ali. The younger version was far too fast for the older version. I appreciate Post-exile that Ali was a tougher man, and probably in a toe to toe with his younger self he'd win, in a match I'd have Cassius by a very wide UD due to work rate and hand speed.

The older Ali had more power but the younger Ali had more speed

I've often thought about this fight, the more "Prime" but less experienced Ali against Foreman.

I posted on the fantasy fight section that I think Foreman edges this one, slightly controversial maybe, but I've often thought that if Ali actually attempted to dance for 12 rounds instead of dancing for one round then inventing the rope-a-dope he would have been taken out.

I just think that Foreman was very good at cutting off the ring and eventualy Ali would have been caught, think it's a bit of a 50/50 however in reality, but would always favour Foreman.

I sometimes wonder, Alex, how Ali would have handled Foreman if the ropes hadn't been as slack as they were. I still think Ali would have found a way, but perhaps not via rope-a-dope.

Younger Ali wins quite easily. Too much speed and incredible ring smarts for one so young.

I'm not sure the ropes were the actual factor in Ali's victory, no doubt the manner in which he conducted himself were attributed to the ropes, but I think even if he'd have done the same in the corners or the middle of the ring, covered up, allowed Foreman to tire himself out - He just needed to survive, and I believe if he'd have kept on with that jab (which he was scoring frequently with due to Foremans sluggish responses post round 2) he'd have gotten an earlier stoppage. I think the tactic was get out there and blast Ali out and it backfired because they thought cutting off the ring would work - nobody expected him to stand there and take the shots.

I was watching this fight the other night and wondered with modern officiating, considering Ali did take (not that many but some big shots) those hits, would it be stopped? I wondered.

I don't think younger Ali would have had the power to take out the older Ali, maybe he'd even get caught with the older Ali understanding his tactics.

I'd pick the younger Ali to beat the older one to the punch more often than not. Older Ali may have been tougher and heavier but I believe "prime" (sorry) Ali had more sting in his punches.

Older Ali, of course, knows what younger Ali would try to do and would no doubt take some rounds with his brain alone, but he couldn't match himself for reflexes and pure speed in all departments. One thing's for sure; it's going the distance.

Biggest problem in analysis here, of course, is that we have Ali's fighting brain running both men.

All in all, though, I'd favour the younger version. Second generation Ali faced a great swarmer in Frazier, a great slugger in Foreman, a very good boxer / scrapper in Norton and very good boxers in Ellis, Mathis and Young. What he didn't face was anybody so quick of hand and foot as he had been prior to his exile. Patterson, when he fought Ali second time out, was thirty seven years old and his handspeed had diminished quite a bit and I can't believe that any of the others would have been able to land regularly and to great effect on the young Ali. Frazier would be the best bet, with his industry and stamina, but Frazier would have given any pure boxer Hell on Earth.

Young very nearly beat second generation Ali ( and he did both drop and beat Foreman, ) and I don't believe he would have gotten a look in against the first generation version.

Would love to have seen Ali 'twixt 1967 and 1970. He would have filled out a wee bit as he approached his thirties, but would still have retained that mercurial elusiveness. Closest I saw to what I imagine he would have been was the second Jerry Quarry fight, ( just over a year after the first Frazier fight, during which time he'd also beaten Ellis and Chuvalo, ) which is a forgotten classic. Ali was, in my opinion, absolutely brilliant that night ; razor sharp, beautifully coordinated, fast, and yet a tiny bit bigger and stronger than the Ali who left us after the Folley fight. He made Quarry, who was an excellent fighter, look very, very ordinary that night. For me it ranks right up there with the Terrell fight when I ponder Ali's great performances.

Pity we didn't see a few more of those.

Personally I've always thought Pre exile Ali beats Frazier comfortably with a few rough periods in between so I have to go with him. Michael Jackson didn't move as well as Ali did in his prime. My abiding memory of young Ali is his casual dismissal of punches with hands down by his side and head moving out of the way of punches then throwing a quick straight right. Later Ali may have found a way to win but I have to favour the first incarnation.

Also welcome to the board Mediacat

One thing's for sure, the fight would go the distance. There is no way a young Cassius would have stopped Ali, his ability to take a punch was awesome and Clay wasn't a big puncher, it was usally an accumalation of blows that wore them down. A pretty wide U.D. points win for me.

Good to see you over here MediaCat! (Armaghcyclone from the old board here). I'd have to go with pre exile Ali as most posters have although I think it would be a closer fight than most with it being a very close UD or SD. Post exile Alie had the added bulk, strength and ring smarts whereas pre exile Ali had the unbelievable reflexes and movement. The young Ali would be able to catch the older Ali a lot due to his speed but the older Ali knew every trick going and would turn it into a war of attrition and take his younger self right to the edge with the young Ali finally getting the decision.

The Boss wrote:Good to see you over here MediaCat! (Armaghcyclone from the old board here).

You kept that one quiet, Armagh.

Good to see another old face - and valued contributor - here at v2.

Need to pay more attention Windy Just kidding I've been here reading mostly due to work but been trying to contribute as much as possible. Great to see you's making such a success of the site!

Thank you, mate.

I'd read and enjoyed your contributions of course, but I didn't know that you were Armagh.

Must have kept it quieter than I thought haha. Hopefully be able to write a bit more after the new year. Good to see so many of the old faces over here anyway.

Thanks ShahenshahG and Armagh for the welcome. Why the change in name Armagh/The Boss? Is it because of:

a) You're a fan of Bruce Springsteen. I remember quoting Springsteen's "Bobby Jean" during Windy's absence from the beeb's 606 and you commended me for it. I assumed you were a Springsteen fan after that.

b) A recent promotion means, well, you're The Boss.

c) A fan of a fighter with the moniker "The Boss" or you are a fighter and this is your moniker.

d) None of the above.

MediaCat wrote:Thanks ShahenshahG and Armagh for the welcome. Why the change in name Armagh/The Boss? Is it because of:

a) You're a fan of Bruce Springsteen. I remember quoting Springsteen's "Bobby Jean" during Windy's absence from the beeb's 606 and you commended me for it. I assumed you were a Springsteen fan after that.

b) A recent promotion means, well, you're The Boss.

c) A fan of a fighter with the moniker "The Boss" or you are a fighter and this is your moniker.

d) None of the above.

e) You've gotten married and are trying to keep your dignity online as the wife wears your trousers.

e) You've gotten married and are trying to keep your dignity online as the wife wears your trousers.

Perhaps I need to change my name to BossCat then.

Shah and Media, you can discount B,C,D and E straight away. Definitely too young for E I am a massive Springsteen fan and that's behind the change of name. Plus, thw ArmaghCyclone thing was a name I went with because I couldn't think of anything better andafter I seen the grief the Clones Cyclone attracts I though I'd be better changing haha. How ya keeping mate?

Alright, thanks. Just enjoying not having to go back to work for a bit. You ok?

100 percent mate. Good to be off for Christmas here too. Money stashed away for a few nights out and can't see it stretching too far!

as ali himself said, young ali wines, he would jab and move and take a points decisions