non home grown players

everyone moan about england picking new zealand south africans born players but look at scotland how many are actually born in england

adambarney wrote:everyone moans about england picking new zealand and south african born players, but look at scotland how many were actually born in england?

There I fixed that for you.

thanks

The countries should have capital letters. Not sure about the players. Two?

Home grown players don't need to have been born in the country they now represent.
To me a home grown player is somebody who learnt his trade from a early age in the country he now represents.

In the 6N squad

Max Evans - England
Ruaridh Jackson - England
Jim Hamilton - England
Ed Kalman - England
Dan Parks - Australia
Graeme Morrison - Hong Kong
John Barclay - Hong Kong
David Denton - Zimbabwe

You make it sound like it's half the team.

So 4 (as England was the original topic). Plenty of Scots born in England, just as there are plenty of Welsh and Irish born in England. There's no way Ruaridh is English with a name like that. Needs something like Manusamoa. And wasn't Max Evans born in Zimbabwe to an English and a Scottish parent? Went to school in England and represented our U19(?) but that's it.

I know, it's awful when Scottish players are born in other parts of the United Kingdom. It's almost like there was no political distinction between the countries at the time of their birth...

IanBru, my wife has crossed out United Kingdom on here birth certificate and written 'WALES' in crayon. Bless her.

adambarney, picking England as your country of original was a bit daft really. You could have WUM much better saying 'outside the UK'. There are just as many as were born in England (more if Max was born in Zimbabwe)

HammerofThunor wrote:So 4 (as England was the original topic). Plenty of Scots born in England, just as there are plenty of Welsh and Irish born in England. There's no way Ruaridh is English with a name like that. Needs something like Manusamoa. And wasn't Max Evans born in Zimbabwe to an English and a Scottish parent? Went to school in England and represented our U19(?) but that's it.

Yeah I thought I'd include the rest of the players not born in Scotland just in case that question came up. Thom Evans was born in Zimbabwe I believe, Max in England. Jackson was indeed born in Northampton. Shocking!

Loads of Scots born in Northamptonshire I think. I knew someone from Kirby and she said there were anyway. Is that in Northamptonshire?

EDIT: I think it's Corby not Kirby

I was born in merseyside to scottish parents, I define myself as scottish-british, although will disown scotland if the independence goes through (doubt it will), nationality in the uk is pretty subjective, but I'd like to think we're all proud of our achievements as british people

NeilyBroon wrote:I was born in merseyside to scottish parents, I define myself as scottish-british, although will disown scotland if the independence goes through (doubt it will), nationality in the uk is pretty subjective, but I'd like to think we're all proud of our achievements as british people

Damn feckin straight. Good on you mate. And very well said. For those of us who are citizens of the UK, thats what we are first and foremost. Our backgrounds are very important, but we are all part of the UK. Any populist, self-serving, destuctive blighter who wants to destroy what people from many different backgrounds have created should be ignored and turned out. Despite our issues, the UK is one of the great success stories in world history, and frankly, is a beautiful country. We are much stronger together than we are separately. As Benjamin Franklin famously once said: "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Except in Rugby, of course.

wtf man are you for real. as a londoner believe me most people hope scotland gets independence for itself and the irish to. uk means sweet fa and is the last of old collonial bull. each to there own my friend.

doctor_grey wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:I was born in merseyside to scottish parents, I define myself as scottish-british, although will disown scotland if the independence goes through (doubt it will), nationality in the uk is pretty subjective, but I'd like to think we're all proud of our achievements as british people

Damn feckin straight. Good on you mate. And very well said. For those of us who are citizens of the UK, thats what we are first and foremost. Our backgrounds are very important, but we are all part of the UK. Any populist, self-serving, destuctive blighter who wants to destroy what people from many different backgrounds have created should be ignored and turned out. Despite our issues, the UK is one of the great success stories in world history, and frankly, is a beautiful country. We are much stronger together than we are separately. As Benjamin Franklin famously once said: "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Except in Rugby, of course.

You honestly think Scotland going independent and joining the Euro would be a good thing for anyone?

Hasn't Sammond said they'll stay with the pound?

Don't think it would really be his choice

NeilyBroon wrote:I was born in merseyside to scottish parents, I define myself as scottish-british, although will disown scotland if the independence goes through (doubt it will), nationality in the uk is pretty subjective, but I'd like to think we're all proud of our achievements as british people

doctor_grey wrote:Damn feckin straight. Good on you mate. And very well said. For those of us who are citizens of the UK, thats what we are first and foremost. Our backgrounds are very important, but we are all part of the UK. Any populist, self-serving, destuctive blighter who wants to destroy what people from many different backgrounds have created should be ignored and turned out. Despite our issues, the UK is one of the great success stories in world history, and frankly, is a beautiful country. We are much stronger together than we are separately. As Benjamin Franklin famously once said: "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Except in Rugby, of course.

Well said, both of you!

Salmond and his cohort simply prey on the most base instincts. Are Scots treated like second-class citizens? Are we beaten in the streets or subject to unwarranted arrest? Of course we aren't. What Scotland does have to do is contribute to a wider idea, rather than always looking out for itself.

HammerofThunor wrote:Hasn't Sammond said they'll stay with the pound?

Salmond says that he wants to stay with the pound, despite the fact that the Bank of England has absolutely no reason to allow it. As with any potentially troublesome issue with independence (e.g. share of national debt, breakup of the armed forces, implications of EU membership) this is "subject to negotiation".

scotland can stand alone . its not all about moeny and anyway scotland has more natural resources than england. Ireland got independance and do you think no matter how the economy is anyone in ireland would want go back to uk? suprises me the proud welsh dont try for indepenence. just my opinion

I know this is not really the place for this, but the independance movement seem very naive. It will cost billions of the new Scotland currency (the Salmond?) to recreate all the offices and embassies of government. Is that what you want? And if the rump UK decides on full customs, border crossings, and customs duties, as would be their right, Scotland will be reduced to a third world country off the northeast coast of Europe. And with zero chance of entering the newly fiscally conservative European community. That would seeriously damage both countries.

Apologies for sounding preachy. Was called into surgery at 3:00 this morning. Then another and another. Car crash and the procedures were real real detailed stuff. I am mentally fried.

flynnnio wrote:scotland can stand alone . its not all about moeny and anyway scotland has more natural resources than england. Ireland got independance and do you think no matter how the economy is anyone in ireland would want go back to uk? suprises me the proud welsh dont try for indepenence. just my opinion

It's only a matter of time, devolution has been a magnificent breath of fresh air for the Welsh economy. Wales is certainly seriously discussing independence from England more and more. If Scotland do vote for independence then I would imagine that Wales would follow a few years after.

maestegmafia wrote:
It's only a matter of time, devaluation has been a magnificent breath of fresh air for the Welsh economy. Wales is certainly seriously discussing independence from England more and more. If Scotland do vote for independence then I would imagine that Wales would follow a few years after.

That's an absolutely cracking Freudian Slip!

maestegmafia wrote:

flynnnio wrote:scotland can stand alone . its not all about moeny and anyway scotland has more natural resources than england. Ireland got independance and do you think no matter how the economy is anyone in ireland would want go back to uk? suprises me the proud welsh dont try for indepenence. just my opinion

It's only a matter of time, devaluation has been a magnificent breath of fresh air for the Welsh economy. Wales is certainly seriously discussing independence from England more and more. If Scotland do vote for independence then I would imagine that Wales would follow a few years after.

It would be interesting to see if the idea of independence has increased in Wales since 1999 (when the vote for limited devolution only just got through)

flynnnio wrote:scotland can stand alone . its not all about moeny and anyway scotland has more natural resources than england. Ireland got independance and do you think no matter how the economy is anyone in ireland would want go back to uk? suprises me the proud welsh dont try for indepenence. just my opinion

Are you kidding me, if Wales went independent they'd be bankrupt in less than a week.

gowales wrote:

flynnnio wrote:scotland can stand alone . its not all about moeny and anyway scotland has more natural resources than england. Ireland got independance and do you think no matter how the economy is anyone in ireland would want go back to uk? suprises me the proud welsh dont try for indepenence. just my opinion

Are you kidding me, if Wales went independent they'd be bankrupt in less than a week.

Every country in the world bar china is currently bankrupt at the moment. Why would anyone presume Wales would be any different.

Welsh political independence hasnt seriously been on the agenda since the 15th century. What has been at the forefont of the welsh independence movement is rather cultural independence.

Added to that is the senedd which has (at least in Education and Health) proven itself incompetent at best and corrupt at worst. Ive taught in both England and Wales and the difference since devolution is astounding. Im still stunned that in Wales we spend over 600 pounds per pupil less than accross the border but we stump up over a million quid for 300 laptops. We have an Education system that is ranked down there with Albania. Personally the assembly is not fit for purpose with everybodys snouts in the trough.

Im a proud welshman as any on here can attest but the senedd makes me weep with shame for the generation of children, that have been let down in Wales.

gowales wrote:

flynnnio wrote:scotland can stand alone . its not all about moeny and anyway scotland has more natural resources than england. Ireland got independance and do you think no matter how the economy is anyone in ireland would want go back to uk? suprises me the proud welsh dont try for indepenence. just my opinion

Are you kidding me, if Wales went independent they'd be bankrupt in less than a week.

The way you say 'they' when referring to Wales suggests that you are not Welsh, contrary to you 606v2 name. That explains a number of your posts then...

TycroesOsprey wrote:Welsh political independence hasnt seriously been on the agenda since the 15th century. What has been at the forefont of the welsh independence movement is rather cultural independence.

Added to that is the senedd which has (at least in Education and Health) proven itself incompetent at best and corrupt at worst. Ive taught in both England and Wales and the difference since devolution is astounding. Im still stunned that in Wales we spend over 600 pounds per pupil less than accross the border but we stump up over a million quid for 300 laptops. We have an Education system that is ranked down there with Albania. Personally the assembly is not fit for purpose with everybodys snouts in the trough.

Im a proud welshman as any on here can attest but the senedd makes me weep with shame for the generation of children, that have been let down in Wales.

Great post, spot on mate.

My wife has also taught in Wales and England and was very frustrated with the Assembly. Even though there is more funding per person in Wales the Assembly have decided to under-fund education compared to England

HammerofThunor wrote:My wife has also taught in Wales and England and was very frustrated with the Assembly. Even though there is more funding per person in Wales the Assembly have decided to under-fund education compared to England

Yep and the question nobody is willing to answer is where has all the money gone!!

Paying for the Assembly. Oh and free prescriptions and hospital parking

What we should really have is a UK government that vote on UK matters and then the representatives of the 4 regions (5 if we could get away with splitting England in 2) then go and vote on devolved issues. That way we needed to be funding another level of people trying to prove that they're doing something.

HammerofThunor wrote:Paying for the Assembly. Oh and free prescriptions and hospital parking

Dont think its that, I mean 1 million for 300 laptops tells me that sombody somewhere is getting very rich off the welsh people. HOw many of us have spent pver 3 grand on a mid range laptop? I mean you can buy a top end laptop from a chain like pc world and still come out with change from a grand. Its corruption or incompetence.

HammerofThunor wrote:What we should really have is a UK government that vote on UK matters and then the representatives of the 4 regions (5 if we could get away with splitting England in 2) then go and vote on devolved issues. That way we needed to be funding another level of people trying to prove that they're doing something.

Why build in yet another level of expensive government? if its a welsh issue only welsh mps vote, same for scotland and England.

HammerofThunor wrote:My wife has also taught in Wales and England and was very frustrated with the Assembly. Even though there is more funding per person in Wales the Assembly have decided to under-fund education compared to England

I would say that there is a huge difference in who the education system is dealing with in Wales compared to England. Wales has struggled with employment for decades prior to devolution, the knock on effect is kids who lack ambition for what has not been available to them. Education in their young minds becomes a lower priority for them.

The assembly is still in its infancy, mistakes have and will be made. Time will provide questions and answers that will elude to the path ahead.

When comparing England and Wales politically look for areas of England with economic similarities, you'll see a lot less difference between Wales and Newcastle or Liverpool than Wales and the south east or home counties.

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:My wife has also taught in Wales and England and was very frustrated with the Assembly. Even though there is more funding per person in Wales the Assembly have decided to under-fund education compared to England

I would say that there is a huge difference in who the education system is dealing with in Wales compared to England. Wales has struggled with employment for decades prior to devolution, the knock on effect is kids who lack ambition for what has not been available to them. Education in their young minds becomes a lower priority for them.

The assembly is still in its infancy, mistakes have and will be made. Time will provide questions and answers that will elude to the path ahead.

When comparing England and Wales politically look for areas of England with economic similarities, you'll see a lot less difference between Wales and Newcastle or Liverpool than Wales and the south east or home counties.

Maes thats rubbish. You dont underfund an Education system because its not a priority in the little kiddies minds. As for Economic hardship I challenge you to walk the streets of peckham or southhall, most of the north west, all of the north east the midlands etc etc and say oooh we have it worse in Rhondda Cynon Taff. Frankly we dont. The range of wealth in Wales is comparable to the rst of the uk or have you not wandered down the vale of glamorgan or SA1 or Cardiff bay. We have social problems and yes we have a hangover from Industry but so does 75% of the uk. Maybe places like Merthyr would be better to live in had there been 13 years of funding that prooduced a felxible and educated workforce that was capable of competing in a global market. If we accept a third rate Education system then we consign ourselves to the dustbin of Europe and the world. Our children are competing with societies in devloping countries taht are prepared to invest in their youth.

the line " The assembly is still in its infancy, mistakes have and will be made. Time will provide questions and answers that will elude to the path ahead" is quite breathtaking for someone I know is an intellegent and proud welshman. Im sure you didnt mean to sound like Leighton Andrews but he may want you as a speechwriter if he reads that.

By the way before Im accused of being a tory or anti-welsh, Im not my father was from Maerdy so that should tell you my political leanings.

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:My wife has also taught in Wales and England and was very frustrated with the Assembly. Even though there is more funding per person in Wales the Assembly have decided to under-fund education compared to England

I would say that there is a huge difference in who the education system is dealing with in Wales compared to England. Wales has struggled with employment for decades prior to devolution, the knock on effect is kids who lack ambition for what has not been available to them. Education in their young minds becomes a lower priority for them.

The assembly is still in its infancy, mistakes have and will be made. Time will provide questions and answers that will elude to the path ahead.

When comparing England and Wales politically look for areas of England with economic similarities, you'll see a lot less difference between Wales and Newcastle or Liverpool than Wales and the south east or home counties.

Not really the best person to say that to when I'm living in Hull (one of the most deprived areas in the country). I'm also from Stoke which isn't much better. There are plenty of rich parts of England. There are also many poor areas of England.

I remember when I was living in Swansea, working for the NHS, and we generally pretty annoyed that everything seemed to go to Cardiff. The Assembly were trying to build up Cardiff at the expense of the rest of the country. They even wanted to move the Neurosurgery department from Morriston (really good quality) to Cardiff even though there was a big one at Bristol. It's similar in England with everything going South (even worse with the Olympics).

Why build in yet another level of expensive government? if its a welsh issue only welsh mps vote, same for scotland and England.

Sorry, that's what I meant. They get together for UK stuff and split up for local stuff.

EDIT: Also doesn't that mean the Assembly should put more emphasis on education rather than less?

Maybe we should leave that whole discussion here as we should be taking shots at our respective Rugby squads ahead of the Six Nations. Goodness knows, mine is a worthy target.

But, I just want to take a minute to tell you where I am coming from. Since Medical School I have been called into the army and recalled again and again to serve in peace keeping missions and other situations where a doc can be of assistance, both to our own and the local citizenry. Most recently just two years ago. I have seen the worst the world has to offer, from people hacked to death with machetes to mass graves to villages burned to the ground with the locals still inside. When I talk to people in these areas, the UK represents an ideal which they can only dream about, not even aspire to. The UK has provided the basis for systems of law around the world based firstly on fairness. Is this ideal something the devolutionists really want to destroy? Really? And the costs will cripple us all and put so far behind the rest of the major nations, we might never recover - don't underestimate this.

I agree there are many things in each part of the country, or better said, each nation within our country, which are unique and should be preserved and even unique aspects requiring local governance. But independence? Thats beyond the pale. And the most gross insult possible to our forebears who built this country.

Griff wrote:

gowales wrote:

flynnnio wrote:scotland can stand alone . its not all about moeny and anyway scotland has more natural resources than england. Ireland got independance and do you think no matter how the economy is anyone in ireland would want go back to uk? suprises me the proud welsh dont try for indepenence. just my opinion

Are you kidding me, if Wales went independent they'd be bankrupt in less than a week.

The way you say 'they' when referring to Wales suggests that you are not Welsh, contrary to you 606v2 name. That explains a number of your posts then...

I am Welsh actually i meant the Welsh National Assembly/Plaid Cymru.

Plaid, welsh labour, the tories, the liberals whats the difference? we have a political elite that is corrupt. We have a police force that is riddled with corruption, we have a press that is immoral and corrupt. We have a banking sector that is out of touch with reality and corrupted. We have levels of inequality between rich and poor taht have not been seen since Victoria was on the throne.

The system itself has failed and with the vested interests of teh political and banking elite protected by backhanders to press and police there is little the people can do about it. Thats accross the board not just in Wales.

Wales suck and are going to get the wooden spoon

Is that what you meant Dr Grey?

Hammer,
My mother told me never to lie.
So I think I ought to keep quiet...........

in terms of national identity in rugby, well I can understand why Wales are so teed off about the Shingler case, as they've essentially made an investment for him to go through the age groups and into their "A team". Bit daft of the lad to accept this if he wanted to keep his options open for international rugby. Proportionally speaking England has nearly 10 times the population as the rest of the UK, and I feel as though a good proportion of this population are Celtic expats, so certainly for Scotland to get so many players from south of the border comes as no real shock, especially as the SRU are only just beginning realise that this is the professional era, Wales and Ireland on the other hand already have very good systems to bring in new players, and Wales especially encourage their players to play domestically so do not usually seek out talent across the border. I think this is just a case of 'tomayto, tomato'.

Due to the interation between the home nations, job opportunities, open borders etc. I would think there is quite a lot of people born in one country and growing up in another.

Once again as with any country being represented by players from another, you can't stop it, especially between the home nations.

If a player has followed the crtieria to represent another nations and chooses to do so is completely out of our hands anyway, so why worry about it.

See it as a way you can brag about your nation being another leg of the feeder system for that nation.

In south Africa we get a player every now and then who was born in Zimbabwe, many people move from Zimbabwe to SA for a better future for their kids, and the odd one makes it to the top. Looking at that Zimbabwe and Namibia has always had strong links with SA rugby, playing in various formats of our domestic leagues, so the odd benefit we get from it is our reward for helping them out with competitive rugby.