Ulster need a new 10

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The title says it all really Ian Humphreys has went incredibly backward in the last year and now we need someone else to come in and play 10 from the start instead, but who? It is likely to be have to be Irish qualified so maybe Steenson from exeter? Whats everyones thoughts?

Sounds like he had a shocker alright MrsP.

I still think hes a quality player though and maybe gets a raw deal by fans and critics because of his reputation for being flaky and.

For instance Pienaar is every bit as poor in defence as IHumph is.

I dont accept PJ has been poor - his kicking has but his game management has been good.
If he played for the first XV he wouldn't be taken the place kicks.

What we are seeing from Humphreys is unacceptable - finish the season Marshall-Pienaer with PJ or McKinney on the bench.

Next year play Pienaer at 9 and see which out of PJ and McKinney claim the 10 spot; in the first 5/6 games.

The only alternative is ditch Humphreys completely and get a NIQ 10 but that means no NIQ backrower. This option would only be considered if a decent backrower from the south agreed to join. That seems unlikely given that McLaughlin and Ruddock have both turned us down in the past.

Rodders he has been flaky all season, Leicester at home apart, and I cannot accept a player who runs away from tackles - he did it on Friday and a home game (I think Munster).

That is completely and utterly unacceptable.

We are building a top European side with a 10 who is playing AIB standard

What’s Steenson’s contract situation like? Would big Hump consider him as a genuine target until Jackson is more experienced? What about Jeremy Staunton?

I don't agree Rodders.

I don't think Pienaar is poor defensively at all.

I like iHumph, I really do, but you just can't have a player who just decides he is not going to even attempt a tackle. And that really is what he did at least twice.
On one of those occasions it looked very much like he reached out as if he might and then seemed to just decide,

"Nah, I wont thanks!"

No way is Pienaar as bad in defense as IHump.

IHumph's defence is prob the worst I have seen from a professional rugby player, the number of times I've watched players walk through him or when he tackles he puts in weak tackles and drops off players, for a professionial its terrible, it may be a weakness in his game but for a professionial it shouldn't be as weak as it is.

I stood up for Humph earlier in the season saying that he'd return to form with Pienaar beside him, but he hasn't. Honestly I wish we still had NOC as back up.

NoC by all reports is playing very well for Connacht at pressent, and I honestly believe he'd be playing instead of Humph at present. I think PJ really has to be pushed this season, so that he is pushing Humph for the 10 shirt next season, and it doesn't automatically get handed to him.

Marshall and Pienaar for me in the next game, maybe even Wallace with Whitten at 12.

Bikkies,

I think Steenson signed on for another 2 years at Exeter last year. So tied till the end of the 20113 season.

Stauton I think is free at the end of this season. He may not be great but as back up till Pjackson is ready, I would say we should think about giving him a one or two year contact.

Well that does sound unacceptable from IHumph alright. He is not having a good season and if he didn't even attempt to tackle then that is shocking.

Pienaar is a very weak tackler and whilst I would be keen to see him at 10 for his decision making, he will not strengthen us defensively down that channel very much, although Marshall is a an exceptional tackler at 9.

MrsP wrote:Bikkies,

I think Steenson signed on for another 2 years at Exeter last year. So tied till the end of the 20113 season.

Ah fair enough. I think I read somewhere recently that Staunton was out of contract. Now he’s not a great player by any means, but he’s the backup 10 at the Tigers and he’s a solid enough player to have in reserve.

Staunton isn't good enough for the Ravens. I'd rather start Jackson or McKinney. No way is he up to the standard we need, he's not fit to lace Humphreys boots.

Steenson and Staunton are not the answer.
Absolutely pointless signing either in front of giving PJ and McKinney a go

I agree with the observation that NOC is playing better rugby than Humphreys at the moment. If he was still at Ulster I would be picking him.


MrsP I have to disagree re Pienear, he is poor defensively but the difference is he doesn't avoid tackles and the rest of his game is World Class - not something you can say about Humphreys

NOC has been getting better game by game for Connacht his place kicking and game management looks very sound these days and he seems to be relishing the responsibility of being first choice and playing at the Sportsground isnt easy the conditions at times are atrocious.

Against Harlequins he looked better than Nick Evans on the night

I don’t think our response to problem positions (as out half is rapidly becoming) should be to buy players in, IQ or NIQ. Let’s give Jackson and McKinney their chances.

Very simply, I would currently trust Paddy Jackson to do a better job at playing OH for 80 minutes at Ravenhill with other, more experienced players around him, than Ian Humphreys.

However green he is, I would expect his kicking from hand and ability to attack the line to be a step up from what Ian is producing. I would expect his defence to be much, much better. And I would let Pienaar kick for points and manage the game – so no change there.

Paddy doesn’t have to be a fantastic, fully rounded outhalf with impeccable game nous to be a step up from Humphreys. He just has to be willing to tackle wingers rather than watch them run six inches past his face, not offload to opposing props, get binned in the last quarter or throw wild passes, hoping blindly that an unspecified Ulster player will catch it.

As for the idea of an NIQ ten, I think that’s when I would start to feel our imports are providing the backbone of our team. That decision-making spine, those key positions; TH, no. 8, scrumhalf, outhalf, fullback - they are all overseas player apart from outhalf. Our captain and lineout caller is NIQ. Experienced, quality imports are supposed to bring our young Ulster talent through, not replace them. How many of the team do we want to be grizzled veterans before we trust some young Ulster fellas?

Having Afoa, Muller, Pienaar, Payne and a new NIQ signing at OH would be the tipping point for me. We would have no Ulster players in any of the really tough positions, and I do feel at that point our NIQ would be buffering Ulster players from shouldering any responsibility.

I wouldn't be getting carried away about NOC, either.

I agree Don.

Would agree with that but 2 points.

NOC is certaintly not a player to get carried away with but the bottom line, at the moment, is that he is playing better than Humphreys.

As for decision making Wilson will provide more IQ decision making at 8 next year and Muller's contract has only 1 more year to go - Tuohy and Stevenson will need to step up to the plate in 2013-14.

Agreed, but equally, I'd rather have PJ than NOC.

You're of course right about Wilson, but the balance would be the same if we brought in an IQ 10.

Tuohy has done a grand job calling the lineouts as far as I'm concerned. But we are fragile in how much we need Muller (or Rory) to lead us away from home.

Muller is fantastic - great leader and a gentleman. I don't resent his presence or any of our other NIQs. They are Ulstermen (via Africa). I just don't want to take more responsibility from the shoulders of local guys.

I'm sorry to see McLaughlin leave, really, but can anyone say they want him in charge of a team without Muller? His record without Muller in the team is rather undistinguished.

I think it's important- crucial even- we have a new, top coaching staff installed when Muller retires next summer. Of course thats harsh, because a huge amount is down to the players as well. We need more leadership across the board.

Just wondering - are you guys a bit hard on your outhalf. I remember reading/hearing that Niall O'Connell's nerves were shot when he first went to Connacht. Was that because he was given a hard time by the Ravenhill faithful?

Is Muller retiring in 2 years?

I don't think he was given a hard time, he was just under A LOT of pressure to perform and it affected his game quite badly.

The coaches stuck with him to try and get him through that but with every poor performance the more pressure was heaped on his shoulders to repay that faith, so it was a less than constructive selection policy. Whats more is his form was holding the team back- everyone knew it, including him.

Notch wrote:I'm sorry to see McLaughlin leave, really, but can anyone say they want him in charge of a team without Muller? His record without Muller in the team is rather undistinguished.

All coaches like to have someone like Muller in their team. Leo in Leinster is credited with changing the culture there (his time spent in Leicester was regarded as being a big help to the club). Munster and Paul O'Connell - looked what happened last year when he was sidelined by injury.

roddersm wrote:Is Muller retiring in 2 years?

End of next season.

Did he announce that Notch? Must have missed that?

Is he staying with us as a coach beyond that?

Not sure Muller is retiring, although he may do, but he certaintly doesn't have a contract with Ulster beyond that point.

Notch has hit on a key point. Ulster rugby club is very dependant upon the prersenc/experience and coaching of a handful of top players. Status wise they are on a par with McLaughlin. It is my assessment he does not have the authority to dictate to them.

Muller, Pienaer and Best are the obvious ones but also to a lesser extent Afoa, Ferris, Henry, Wannenberg and Wallace. At the moment it works because hey are all level headed decent individuals but if a 'jake the lad' character gets in the team it could cause mayhem as the coach would not have the authority to put them in line. I think this is central to why McLaughlin is going.

NOC change in confidence hits upon another key point. The coaching staff in general, but Doak in particular are very critical of mistakes.

If a young lad makes a mistake he goes off on one saying the likes of 'Don't ever ever do that again you ********* ****'.
At Leinster, I understand, it is very different - the player in question would be taken inside and explained why it was a mistake but encouraged to express themselves on the pitch.

The more I think about it a completely new set of coaches is essential

Well I'd want Doak to be gone whatever happens with McLaughs frankly.

Very good points geoff. I agree 100%.

Geoff – I think that is illustrated perfectly by Gilroy’s performance on Friday night.

When Gilroy played against Cardiff last season, he scored two tries, one of which was a fantastic solo effort in which he chipped over the head of the FB, re-gathered and scored. One of the tries of the season.

On Friday night, he got the ball off Paddy Wallace’s break, and basically stopped, unsure of what to do. James was around, but not in his way. He had a free run to the tryline. And he froze. The Gilroy of last season would have scored, I think.

Doak sounds like a right Tinkywinky.

That part really bugged me where Gilroy passed back inside when he had what looked like a free run to the try line. He didn't seem to want the ball.

Haha they changed my original word to tinkywinky.. witty.

Is it a completely new coaching set up coming in or is it just mcloughlin being replaced?

No existing coach other than McLaughlin and Longwell have a contract for next year.

Have they set a date or a timeframe for when they want everything in place for next season on the coaching front?

Totally agree Geoff about the fear of failure. Longwell and Malone get a lot of stick at the Academy level for being hard on players but from what I've seen they don't stop them playing their natural game. When the young guys first come on the senior scene they are exuberant and not afraid to express their talent but that gets eroded over time. IMO McL isn't the guy to instill confidence in them as he is naturally conservative and Doak majors on the negatives too much.

I can't believe some posters suggesting Steenson and Staunton as options. Steenson is a worse defender than Humphreys and Staunton hasn't the bottle under pressure. Surely bringing second/third string AP players back isn't the answer!

I've been critical of Humphreys this season, and he shouldn't be starting. However there has to be a reason for his slump in form - maybe he's injured? All season long he hasn't been timing his kicks from hand and that is a fairly indicative sign that he's protecting something. It wouldn't be the first time a coach has asked a player to keep going.

Humphreys simply has to be "rested" so Pienaar now has to move to 10 with Marshall at 9. Ruan is a top class flyhalf and the best Ulster have anyway so he should be starting at 10. If he gets injured I'd play Paddy at outhalf as he's at least as good as the Steenson/Staunton/NOC brigade.

Paddy Jackson and James McKinney have both real potential, and Luke Marshall shouldn't be discounted as a potential 10 either having played there in the past.

So with six fly halves on the books, why on earth would Ulster need another one?

Humphreys simply has to be "rested" so Pienaar now has to move to 10 with Marshall at 9. Ruan is a top class flyhalf and the best Ulster have anyway so he should be starting at 10. If he gets injured I'd play Paddy at outhalf as he's at least as good as the Steenson/Staunton/NOC brigade.

As a Tigers fan I can assure you that you would want Humphreys over Staunton every day of the week. Staunton maintains the depth of the average full back, has a laboured passing style and won't call a move other than passing the ball on to the inside centre. His kicking is reliably average though.

I didn't mention Staunton to replace Humph, but to back him up.

If Stauton can be the back up at tigers he can be the back up at Ulster.

We won't get a great player in at outhalf, we have Ihump, Pienaar (who want to play 9) Wallace (who wants to play 12) and PJ (whos young and inexperienced.

Having Staunton wuld put the pressure on IHumph that there is an option to drop him, would allow us to rest Ihumph at times as well (he may well be playing with a injury-how many games has he missed the last 2 years?) and it wouldn't block PJ development as it would only be a 1 year deal, giving PJ time to get experience to challange for the number 10 shirt.

I don't want Staunton to play fly half any more than current Tigers fans do, but he is a decent expericened Irish back up to have to Humph, I think we need one and there aren't many about.

In that regard he has been useful. He has fallen down the pecking order of late so it looks like he will definitely be leaving in the summer as we won't pay to retain him as the 4th choice 10. Could Ulster not back the youngsters in a few Rabo games and rest Humphries for the bigger occasions?

I absolutely think we should, Sam. Why are we wanting to bring in someone that is older and not as good as one of our youngsters?

geoff998rugby wrote:Muller, Pienaer and Best are the obvious ones but also to a lesser extent Afoa, Ferris, Henry, Wannenberg and Wallace. At the moment it works because hey are all level headed decent individuals but if a 'jake the lad' character gets in the team it could cause mayhem as the coach would not have the authority to put them in line. I think this is central to why McLaughlin is going.

NOC change in confidence hits upon another key point. The coaching staff in general, but Doak in particular are very critical of mistakes.

If a young lad makes a mistake he goes off on one saying the likes of 'Don't ever ever do that again you ********* ****'.
At Leinster, I understand, it is very different - the player in question would be taken inside and explained why it was a mistake but encouraged to express themselves on the pitch.

The more I think about it a completely new set of coaches is essential

I think in general most players have a very good attitude - they would be weeded out before getting that far. As an ex-teacher, I'd say Brian McLaughlin would be well able to sort them out anyway, though considering David Humphreys does the hiring, he should also do the firing, though probably what you need a couple of senior players/captain to get them all towing the line.

Well Don we only kept him long enough for George Ford to develop. In a short term measure it may be a good idea but if you've got experienced internationals able to cover in an emergency for the big games would it not be better to give some game time to the younger guys. Unless Ulster have a massive urge to win the Rabo then they could give games over to a younger player and know they are still likely to make the play offs and almost certain to qualify for the HEC.

Well, I think we've probably missed the Rab C. play-offs. But Jackson will still be better that iHumph, most likely. It';s not even a matter of giving youth soem experience - it's playing the best player (on current form).

Don Alfonso wrote:Well, I think we've probably missed the Rab C. play-offs. But Jackson will still be better that iHumph, most likely. It';s not even a matter of giving youth soem experience - it's playing the best player (on current form).

Look at the Pro12 table:

Glasgow P15 Pts 41
Cardiff P14 Pts 39
Ulster P15 Pts 37
Scarlets P15 Pts 35

Also look at the upcoming fixture lists between now and the HC QF:

Glasgow - Home to Leinster, Aironi, Blues Away - Ospreys = say 11 points
Cardiff - Home to Scarlets Away - Munster, Treviso, Dragons, Warriors = say 13 points
Ulster - Home Edinburgh, Ospreys, Aironi Away - Treviso = say 14 points
Scarlets - Home Treviso, Connacht Away - Blues, Edinburgh = say 15 points

That gives us -
Glasgow 52
Cardiff 52
Ulster 51
Scarlets 50

Perfectly reasonable and assumes an Ulster defeat in Treviso.

It most definitely still game on !

Geoff, those scores would mean we wouldn't make the playoffs!

But I take your point. Just a natuiral pessimist...

No but with 3 games, after that, we would be right in the mix.

I'll go further win in Terviso and Galway, neither easy mind, and my money is we will make the play offs.

I agree with Geoff, its all to play for yet!

SUFTUM!