Who were your choice players from 1 to 15 in week four of the Six Nations

First topic message reminder :

Well I think all in all its been a good Six Nations so far, unless you are French where i haven't seen many positives outside of the front row and the inside centre.

That said we all have seen ups and downs in our own teams, positives and negatives.

The exciting thing for all of us rugby fans despite our nationality is the fact that there are some great new players for us to swoon over each weekend and for the future too.

This championship is very much one that alludes to what will happen in the future not the present despite your teams current standing, a very positive championship in that respect that hopefully will be a pointer to the coaches of what they have to work with and what they have to expect over the next RWC cycle.

Who are your stand out players after round 4...?


USUAL GENTLEMANLY RULES APPLY, DO NOT CRITICISE SOMEONE ELSE TEAM SELECTION UNTIL YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR OWN...!!!

A lot of people picking Tuilagi at 13 - I don't think he did much bar his one eye catching moment.

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Lorenzo Cittadini
4. Ritchie Gray
5. Donnacha Ryan
6. Tom Croft
7. Simone Favaro
8. Ben Morgan
9. Morgan Parra
10. Owen Farrell
11. George North
12. Wesley Fofana
13. Keith Earls
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Ben Foden


Worst team

1. Jacobsen
2. Rees
3. Cross
4. O'Callaghan
5. Geldenhuys
6. Barclay
7. Bonnaire
8. Faletau
9. Semenzato
10. Burton
11. Sharples
12. Sgarbi
13. Evans
14. Ashton
15. Hogg

15.Kearney-best full back in world rugby.
14.Bowe-finishing skill above anyone else,whoever picked Ashton should be shot.
13.Earls-too many line breaks to leave him out.
12.No one played well at first centre.Fofana is already terribly overrated.
11.North-no one else to pick.
10.Sexton-best out half in Europe by a country mile.
9.No one played well at 9.Parra came on as a sub and Reddan's try was a fluke.
8.Morgan-Although a very average player, he had a good game.Tony isn't international standard.
7.POM-who else.
6.Stephen Ferris-best 6 in the world, apart from the "brilliant" Croft
5.Ryan-Stole from the best line out in the championship, enough said.
4.Gray-Scored the best try I have ever seen from a second row.
3.Mike Ross-Destroyed the mess who shall no be named.
2.Rory Best-Best hooker in the world.
1.Cian Healy-similar to Jenkins in terms of scrummaging ability but has a lot more to offer around the park, just ask Quake Cooper,Jerome Kaino and Maxime Medard.

15. Rob Kearney - Excellent under high ball, stood up by Scottish Goliath. Foden too.
14. Malzieu .
13. Tuilagi - lovely powerful running for his try, gains good ground and tackles strong.
12. None
11. Trimble
10. Owen Farrell/Sexton -weigh up
9. Reddan - moved the ball and took a good opportunist try..
8. Harinorduquy/ David Denton
7. Rennie
6. Ferris/Robshaw
5. Donacha Ryan - No other stand out really.
4. Richie Gray - Class act, enough said.
3. none
2. Rory Best - captained his side, led from the front, scored the try.
1. Healy - ish

Oh look, Ferris made twice as many tackles as Dussatoir, he must be twice the player and would be a shoe in for the French back row too

Wales 606, carefull what you say about Tuilagi, also your being very harsh on Falatau and Sharples there!

Bluesman, you didn't answer my last question. You don't seriously believe that Ferris isn't an out and out 6 like you stated? Plus, from your little dig there about Ferris it shows you clearly haven't a clue what I or anyone else was talking about with regards to Ferris, Lydiate and the welsh back row.

Plus since IMO Ferris is the best 6 in the world, he would make the french back row. Before someone says, Dusautoir isn't actually a blindside. France play a left-right system.

wales606 wrote:A lot of people picking Tuilagi at 13 - I don't think he did much bar his one eye catching moment.

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Lorenzo Cittadini
4. Ritchie Gray
5. Donnacha Ryan
6. Tom Croft
7. Simone Favaro
8. Ben Morgan
9. Morgan Parra
10. Owen Farrell
11. George North
12. Wesley Fofana
13. Keith Earls
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Ben Foden


Worst team

1. Jacobsen
2. Rees
3. Cross
4. O'Callaghan
5. Geldenhuys
6. Barclay
7. Bonnaire
8. Faletau
9. Semenzato
10. Burton
11. Sharples
12. Sgarbi
13. Evans
14. Ashton
15. Hogg

I agree but you could say exactly the same thing (except he also cheated and accidentally knocked out an England player) about Fofana who made your team

I don't think anyone would EASILY make the French back-row. Ferris would certainly stand a better chance than most

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Plus since IMO Ferris is the best 6 in the world, he would make the french back row. Before someone says, Dusautoir isn't actually a blindside. France play a left-right system.

Well 18 tackles 0 missed makes him defender of the week for Ireland.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't think anyone would EASILY make the French back-row. Ferris would certainly stand a better chance than most

Who said anyone would easily make the french back row?

Does it? Quality v quantity v net effectiveness. Number of tackles tells you very little in its own.

As I pointed out earlier though, many of the tackles Ferris made killed the opposition momentum and knocked them back. Some resulted in turnovers. So it was quality and quantity. As I said, Lydiate doesn't make the same impact in his tackling but is labelled the tackling machine.

Ferris is an awesome player, and Lydiate has been quiet since subduing Ireland in the World Cup. My point is more general than specific against Ferris. Parking had most tackles verses Wales, but the performances couldn't have been more different.

Or maybe he has just been overrated since that game? Ferris was just thrown into the world cup straight from an almost career ending injury don't forget. Ireland's game plan was to use SOB and Ferris to just run straight. Easy game for someone known to be a tackler (Lydiate).

Some great rugby this weekend, based on that alone:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole (Close Jones/Ross)
4. Pape (Gray/Parling close)
5. Ryan
6. Croft
7. O'Mahony
8. Harinordoquy (Denton close)

9. Dickson
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. Barritt (Roberts close)
13. Tuilagi (Earls close)
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

Have you seen how much strapping he has in his ankle? I'm happy enough with Lydiate in my team and appreciate what Ferris contributes. Their respective reputations in the meeja interest me little.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:As I pointed out earlier though, many of the tackles Ferris made killed the opposition momentum and knocked them back. Some resulted in turnovers. So it was quality and quantity. As I said, Lydiate doesn't make the same impact in his tackling but is labelled the tackling machine.

Ferris was attributed just one turnover. He may have been the tackler when others turned over because of his defence I can't remember right now. He made some good hard yards, even appears in the loose a bit too.

He is a very good player, it will be interesting to see who gets the lions shirt of him and Lydiate. They are the two front runners at the moment.

Personally I think Lydiate has the better rugby intelligence of the two and would be my pick. Lydiate has had the better of Ferris three times in 12 months.

You can't look at them in isolation. It's Lydiate if you go the Welsh route as an unit. If not there is an argument for Ferris, Rennie, Croft.

Ferris is much better than Lydiate for me, can't see anything but a Ferris/Warburton flank combo

Ridiculous argument really. There's no contest between the two.

Even if Gatland becomes the Lions coach, even he'll pick Ferris ahead of his own player Lydiate. I really think national bias is apparent here. Just look at it this way.

Who thinks Lydiate should be the Lions 6?
Some Welsh people.

Who thinks Ferris should be the Lions 6?
Almost everyone from every country, including some of the calmer, less carried away Welsh posters.

The fact that you're trying to argue for Lydiate's selection by saying he's more used to playing with Warburton (who really is world class), says it all. If that's you're case, then it's case closed. Ferris it is.

You're probably right if he's fit. If you start with Ferris and Warbuton 8 is a real luxury pick. I'd be tempted with a real athletic link man like Croft.

maestegmafia wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:As I pointed out earlier though, many of the tackles Ferris made killed the opposition momentum and knocked them back. Some resulted in turnovers. So it was quality and quantity. As I said, Lydiate doesn't make the same impact in his tackling but is labelled the tackling machine.

Ferris was attributed just one turnover. He may have been the tackler when others turned over because of his defence I can't remember right now. He made some good hard yards, even appears in the loose a bit too.

He is a very good player, it will be interesting to see who gets the lions shirt of him and Lydiate. They are the two front runners at the moment.

Personally I think Lydiate has the better rugby intelligence of the two and would be my pick. Lydiate has had the better of Ferris three times in 12 months.

Please enlighten me as to why you think Lydiate has better rugby intelligence than Ferris. What are you basing that on?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ridiculous argument really. There's no contest between the two.

Even if Gatland becomes the Lions coach, even he'll pick Ferris ahead of his own player Lydiate. I really think national bias is apparent here. Just look at it this way.

Who thinks Lydiate should be the Lions 6?
Some Welsh people.

Who thinks Ferris should be the Lions 6?
Almost everyone from every country, including some of the calmer, less carried away Welsh posters.

The fact that you're trying to argue for Lydiate's selection by saying he's more used to playing with Warburton (who really is world class), says it all. If that's you're case, then it's case closed. Ferris it is.

+1

The most ridiculous thing I have read yet though is that he isn't an out and out 6.

What is an out and out 6? Ferris is capable of following the same orders as Lydiate. Gatland is his own man though and won't flinch to drop Ferris if he thinks that's the right call.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't think anyone would EASILY make the French back-row. Ferris would certainly stand a better chance than most

Who said anyone would easily make the french back row?

Sorry I imagined a word

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:As I pointed out earlier though, many of the tackles Ferris made killed the opposition momentum and knocked them back. Some resulted in turnovers. So it was quality and quantity. As I said, Lydiate doesn't make the same impact in his tackling but is labelled the tackling machine.

Ferris was attributed just one turnover. He may have been the tackler when others turned over because of his defence I can't remember right now. He made some good hard yards, even appears in the loose a bit too.

He is a very good player, it will be interesting to see who gets the lions shirt of him and Lydiate. They are the two front runners at the moment.

Personally I think Lydiate has the better rugby intelligence of the two and would be my pick. Lydiate has had the better of Ferris three times in 12 months.

Please enlighten me as to why you think Lydiate has better rugby intelligence than Ferris. What are you basing that on?

Watching the rugby they play. Lydiate makes better decisions.

There we go, I am not the only one who thinks Ferris wouldn't make the Wales back row, oh and I also think he would be 50/50 with Bonnaire in the French unit.

I will disagree that Lydiate and Ferris are front runners, I think Lydiate has the edge if Warbs and Falatau play tests but I think Heaslip, SOB and Denton, arguably Morgan are all in contention for the 8 spot, If SOB, Falatau or Heaslip play 8 I'd go with Lydiate, if Denton, Morgan play 8 I think Ferris would be a better fit!

Pooly you have a few good calls in that side but a few shockers too...

Ryan over Gray????

Mahony over Favaro? Really?

Hairy donkey had a nightmare first half! Denton and Parisse much better!

No Cuthbert? Really? I thought Trimble was average, but better than he has been.

I know the 13 spots weren't great this week but I'd definately put Earls and Davies performances over Tuilagi.

Well bluesman said Ireland play with 3 "8-like" players, and have no out and out 6 or 7. My guess is he means Ferris doesn't play like a 6, so I guess that is the meaning. Which is ridiculous to suggest.

Davies put in a good shift on Saturday. Very solid, very mature.

maestegmafia wrote:
Watching the rugby they play. Lydiate makes better decisions.

Example?

Glas a du wrote:Davies put in a good shift on Saturday. Very solid, very mature.

Davies has been magnicent I hope that the Scarlets start playing him at outside centre instead of inside.

Not trying to take the opposition's heads off when clearing out. He will come a cropper for that sooner or later.

Yes I did say that Rory, All 3 back rowers in Heaslip, SOB and Ferris all love to carry, run supporting lines, attack out in wider channells, and are quick flexible and like to make a big tackle.

These are common 8 attributes no?

There is no breakdown guy, there is no tight muscle and an athletic one in between them. Thats how a lot of back row units are based.

The Wales back row has a better balance than the Irish wouldn't you say? Would another 8 style ball carrier, drift out wide, athlete be what they need at 6?

As I said for me Ferris is arguably first choice at a lions test jersey at present, but there is an argumant for a lesser player to help the unit work better is there not?

Lydiate and Ferris could play 8 making room for both with Warburton.

maestegmafia wrote:Ferris was attributed just one turnover.

The turnovers that appear in those stat packages are the turnovers the player conceded, not won. I thought it was turnovers won as well when I first started using those stat sites, but realised that when you totalled them up they matched the turnovers conceded by the team shown in the "match stats" section.

I haven't found a stat package that attributes individual players with turnovers won yet, just the team as a whole. I assume that is because in messy rucks and mauls it's often near impossible to work out the player responsible for winning the turnover, but you invariably know who took it in and was responsible for losing it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
Watching the rugby they play. Lydiate makes better decisions.

Example?

Watch the matches from 8th of October and 12th of March and The 5th of Febuary 2012 for recent important examples.

Is the ball carrier automatically responsible for the turnover though stlowe?

I'd say definately not!

maestegmafia wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
Watching the rugby they play. Lydiate makes better decisions.

Example?

Watch the matches from 8th of October and 12th of March and The 5th of Febuary 2012 for recent important examples.

I have seen all the matches you speak of, and I entirely disagree that you have anything to actually base the point that Lydiate is a more intelligent player than Ferris on. I'll ask one more time. Can you provide any specific examples as to what you mean?

maesteg

I'm not sure thats a fair point, the Wales back row I think went better as a unit, but I wouldn't say Lyds straight up outplayed Ferris, not that I remember every incident of each game, but from what I remember the back row went much better in the WC, and they were a match at least 5th Feb, of which did Lydiate even play? Thought Shinglar played 6 that game?

Let's be honest the Lions back row has a lot of options but we'll see where form lies in a year

stlowe wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Ferris was attributed just one turnover.

The turnovers that appear in those stat packages are the turnovers the player conceded, not won. I thought it was turnovers won as well when I first started using those stat sites, but realised that when you totalled them up they matched the turnovers conceded by the team shown in the "match stats" section.

I haven't found a stat package that attributes individual players with turnovers won yet, just the team as a whole. I assume that is because in messy rucks and mauls it's often near impossible to work out the player responsible for winning the turnover, but you invariably know who took it in and was responsible for losing it.

If you read the rest of the post you quoted from you'd see that I stated that Ferris may well have contributed to other turn overs. His tackling was immense. 18 none missed.

Rory to be pedantic mate, Lydiate didn't give away the match losing penalty with a dangerous tackle...

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Pooly you have a few good calls in that side but a few shockers too...

Ryan over Gray????

Mahony over Favaro? Really?

Hairy donkey had a nightmare first half! Denton and Parisse much better!

No Cuthbert? Really? I thought Trimble was average, but better than he has been.

I know the 13 spots weren't great this week but I'd definately put Earls and Davies performances over Tuilagi.

Apart from carrying I thought Ryan outplayed Gray tbh, it was a cracking try though.

I was really impressed with POM, great shift from the lad.

Hari was outstanding and pretty much dragged France back into the game, I didn't think he had a nightmare 1st in the slightest. Parisse was actually pretty average imo.

Cuthbert played well but I thought Trimble was fantastic in attack & defence.

I think I mentioned Earls but again I thought Tuilagi gave Rougerie issues all game whilst JD had a good game he was hardly up against Rougerie.

Hardly stinkers just an opinion and I'd happily stand by them.

Lydiate better than Ferris.....nobody(even the most one eyed Welshman) could say that and actually mean it.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

wales606 wrote:A lot of people picking Tuilagi at 13 - I don't think he did much bar his one eye catching moment.

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Lorenzo Cittadini
4. Ritchie Gray
5. Donnacha Ryan
6. Tom Croft
7. Simone Favaro
8. Ben Morgan
9. Morgan Parra
10. Owen Farrell
11. George North
12. Wesley Fofana
13. Keith Earls
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Ben Foden


Worst team

1. Jacobsen
2. Rees
3. Cross
4. O'Callaghan
5. Geldenhuys
6. Barclay
7. Bonnaire
8. Faletau
9. Semenzato
10. Burton
11. Sharples
12. Sgarbi
13. Evans
14. Ashton
15. Hogg

I agree but you could say exactly the same thing (except he also cheated and accidentally knocked out an England player) about Fofana who made your team

Very true, but I coudn't think of a better 12 - Roberts/JD2 perhaps, but it was hard to judge vs Italy. Fofana runs some great line to be fair.

thebluesmancometh wrote:maesteg

I'm not sure thats a fair point, the Wales back row I think went better as a unit, but I wouldn't say Lyds straight up outplayed Ferris, not that I remember every incident of each game, but from what I remember the back row went much better in the WC, and they were a match at least 5th Feb, of which did Lydiate even play? Thought Shinglar played 6 that game?

It's a contentious point that I am happy to leave to the lions selectors all I can say is they are both Blwdi good, and I am just happy that we have to such fantastic players in contention for the lions, also glad we don't have to play ireland again this championship they are improving at a rate of knots.

My personal preference is Lydiate though. Smart guy for a donk man.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Yes I did say that Rory, All 3 back rowers in Heaslip, SOB and Ferris all love to carry, run supporting lines, attack out in wider channells, and are quick flexible and like to make a big tackle.

These are common 8 attributes no?

There is no breakdown guy, there is no tight muscle and an athletic one in between them. Thats how a lot of back row units are based.

The Wales back row has a better balance than the Irish wouldn't you say? Would another 8 style ball carrier, drift out wide, athlete be what they need at 6?

As I said for me Ferris is arguably first choice at a lions test jersey at present, but there is an argumant for a lesser player to help the unit work better is there not?

SOB has been doing fine as the "breakdown guy" so to speak. He is developing into that role nicely and is not as effective a carrier anymore. You must be watching a different Ferris from me though. As I have said about 10 times before now, all those things you attribute Lydiate as (the "defensive guy") Ferris does, but to greater effect. Plus he offers an option going forward. I think he could make a great 8 actually, but he is quite clearly suited to 6 and does what any good 6 is expected to do. He is world class because he does it better than anyone else right now.

The welsh back row works well because of the welsh backs. If you paired the welsh back row with the Ireland team, they wouldn't be nearly as effective. We need some big guys who can carry there. Wales have those guys in the backs, so they play a very defensive back row. Plus Heaslip is just out of sorts atm anyway. Ferris is the 6 any team would want, and is also very adaptable/dependable.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Rory to be pedantic mate, Lydiate didn't give away the match losing penalty with a dangerous tackle...

Warburton??

If you don't think Ferris is a out and out 6 than please stop watching rugby because you clearly don't understand the game and appreciate how it should be played.If you think Lydiate is better than Ferris, you don't appreciate good rugby, end of discussion.
Ferris is a better tackler.Although Lydiate has better technique, Ferris can use his brute force to push anyone back in the tackle area.
Attacking-Lydiate doesn't really offer anything in attack, in contrast to Ferris, who is sadly Ireland's best attacker.
"Decision making"- I saw this mentioned earlier, neither have bad or good decision making. Ridiculous point.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Rory to be pedantic mate, Lydiate didn't give away the match losing penalty with a dangerous tackle...

Warburton??

Warburton is a different player to Lydiate.

Though the way those three lads gel it is hard to tell them apart sometimes. Higher praise is rarely seen.

Gray was excellent, really carried Scotland on his back at times. Although Ryan had a good game too so I can understand that.

I thought POM was good too, but Favaro was a player posessed, as was Parisse. I'd argue Ghiraldini too, all three were dominated by the Welsh and just would not take a step back, they were very impressive!

Hari was excellent 2nd half I agree but that first half he was one of the worst players on the park, all over the place defencively and brought the attack to a standstill with ineffective carrying.

I don't think Tuilagi gave Rougerie a hard time, I'd say he and Fofana nullified each other, the try was good but he butchered 2/3 more chances, and at one point had to make a pass off his left he almost came to a standstill and Sharples nearly over ran him.

Noones claiming Lydiate is the better player, well I'm not anyway, but I am saying he wouldn't displace him in the Welsh back row.