England Have Broken Into The Top Four

Congratulations to England who, on the back of a gritty and tense away win in France have broken into the top 4 IRB ranked teams.

Under the short tenure of Stuart Lancaster England have beaten Scotland away for the first time since 2004, returned to the top flight of elite rugby teams and won all 3 away 6N games for the first time.

Surely, now, the RFU must hand the man a contract, pat him on the back and admit he has performed a minor miracle, unthinkable at the start of this championship.

Here it comes. wait for it.

Brace yourselves!!!!!!

And lost 100% of our home games.

Great performance in France. Good luck to them for the future, still have the Irish Six Nations Bogie to beat...!

biltong, thoughts on England performance? Were you happy with your boys, Botha and Barritt?

On topic, assuming that the 2015 RWC seedings will be based on the rankings, when is this due to actually happen?

Do the rankings actually mean anything....

damngoodOvalball wrote:biltong, thoughts on England performance? Were you happy with your boys, Botha and Barritt?

On topic, assuming that the 2015 RWC seedings will be based on the rankings, when is this due to actually happen?

to be honest I don't rate botha at all, but I do rate barrit, he has been a tackling machine.

As far as I understand the rankings at the end of december will count for seedings.

Really ????

as far as I can tell Wales are on 82.62 and England are on 82.61

It does mean soemthing as 4th place will be a top WC seed

It's good for Ireland if England are 4th as the ranking points on offer would be greater. Similarly the drop in points wouldn't be as great if England win.

geoff998rugby wrote:Really ????

as far as I can tell Wales are on 82.62 and England are on 82.61

It does mean soemthing as 4th place will be a top WC seed

4. England 82.92
5. Wales 82.62
6. France 82.61

Unfortunately for Wales, it means that even if Wales win by more than 15+ next weekend, as they are home and France have been pushed below them, they will not gain sufficient points to go into the top 4, even if they complete the grandslam.

They would additionally need England to lose to Ireland.

However should Wales lose, they would be relegated back to 6th or 7th depending on the size of the loss, and the results of other games. This despite winning the six nations championship.

Seems kind of unfair doesn't it?

Has this been officially announced?

I can't find it.

Your right I misread.

What it does show though is 4th place is up for grabs between Wales, England, France , Ireland and Argentina. A couple of results and it all changes.

The rankings are pretty volatile over this period and whilst it's nice to have a lift it isn't likely to be indicative of the situation later this year when it matters. Realistically the chances of a top 4 position are slim for England and quite tough for Wales but we'll see.

Forget the RWC rankings - the key is to avoid Samoa

If the rankings are so close that france, wales, england, Ireland and Argentina are all within a point from each other, does the fact that one team is but mere decimal points ahead of another really provide bragging rights?

TheVoiceOfReason wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Really ????

as far as I can tell Wales are on 82.62 and England are on 82.61

It does mean soemthing as 4th place will be a top WC seed

4. England 82.92
5. Wales 82.62
6. France 82.61

Unfortunately for Wales, it means that even if Wales win by more than 15+ next weekend, as they are home and France have been pushed below them, they will not gain sufficient points to go into the top 4, even if they complete the grandslam.

They would additionally need England to lose to Ireland.

However should Wales lose, they would be relegated back to 6th or 7th depending on the size of the loss, and the results of other games. This despite winning the six nations championship.

Seems kind of unfair doesn't it?

Because world rankings arent based on the last game only, they are based on long term play and form.

Wales only ever beat sides who are out of the top 4.
England have only lost 5 of their last 20 games ( albeit twice against Wales!) which has included 4 wins against sides in the top 4 at the time they played them.
Lets not forget they had slipped to 9th not so long ago. If you look at results over the last year between the three sides can you argue agfainst them having a similar rating? Its all very paper rock scissors.

The real difference will come from results agaisnt the trinations sides in the summer and AIs. Wales have an excelelnt chance of pulling an away win in Aus, that would make a significant difference to their rating points.

On current form in the 6 nations I would say:
Wales are slightly ahead of the other 6 nations sides.

England and Ireland are equal - match this weekend will prove who is better.

France slightly below as they drew with Ireland and lost to England at home.

Scotland and Italy - a fair bit behind the other 4 teams. Again match this weekend to show who has the edge.

beshocked wrote:On current form in the 6 nations I would say:
Wales are slightly ahead of the other 6 nations sides.

England and Ireland are equal - match this weekend will prove who is better.

France slightly below as they drew with Ireland and lost to England at home.

Scotland and Italy - a fair bit behind the other 4 teams. Again match this weekend to show who has the edge.

And you don't require a ranking system to tell you that.

Agree with that.

The big gap is between France and Scotland/Italy. The worrying thing for them was Wales and Ireland both won so comfortably.

I thought the situation was that Wales had over took England into 4th place in the Rankins, and even tough England won yesterday, they was to far behind WALES TO CATCH UP.

Am i wrong to think that?

What margin do Wales have to lose to France by?

And what margin of points do England have beat Ireland by?

For England to win thye 6ns, and for Wales to lose the 6ns?

Can Wales still lose? Or are they too far infront to lose anyway?

beshocked wrote:On current form in the 6 nations I would say:
Wales are slightly ahead of the other 6 nations sides.

England and Ireland are equal - match this weekend will prove who is better.

France slightly below as they drew with Ireland and lost to England at home.

Scotland and Italy - a fair bit behind the other 4 teams. Again match this weekend to show who has the edge.

Yeah its hard to argue with most of that.

I think the final weekend will decide how far Wales are ahead of the rest. If they lose then the answer is not much but if they beat France comfortably to close out the GS then they are head and shoulders top dogs in the NH.

The top 4 are close together so the England v Ireland game is huge to show who has been 2nd best this year. England are moving forward but a win is crucial for Ireland to show they aren't going backwards.

France are an average team of fantastic players. Fourth place is as much as they deserve. If anything Scotland have impressed me more with some of the rugby they've produced. France could still turn it on against Wales but I doubt it.

Scotland are much better than Italy imo and will beat them comfortably.

majesticimperialman wrote:I thought the situation was that Wales had over took England into 4th place in the Rankins, and even tough England won yesterday, they was to far behind WALES TO CATCH UP.

Am i wrong to think that?

What margin do Wales have to lose to France by?

And what margin of points do England have beat Ireland by?

For England to win thye 6ns, and for Wales to lose the 6ns?

Can Wales still lose? Or are they too far infront to lose anyway?

This should explain things
http://www.irb.com/rankings/news/newsid=2061382.html#england+frances+spot+rankings

majesticimperialman wrote:
Can Wales still lose? Or are they too far infront to lose anyway?

For Wales to not win the 6N:
1. Wales would need to lose to France
2. England would need to beat Ireland
3. The total change in net points difference between England and Wales would need to be more than 38 points in favour of England.

If Wales beat France, then the trophy can be awarded then and there.
Otherwise, the result will wait on the outcome of the England v Ireland game. However unlikely it may be that England would win by a sufficient margin to overcome the Welsh points difference.

I think most rational people would suggest that Wales have wrapped up the 6N already.

Wales have won the tournament, the only question is whether they will get the GS. Current form and home advantage suggests they will.

I think they'll put France to the sword actually.

Top four, is that it? Last week it was top three or nothing. Break into the top 3 or win the 6 Nations and then chirp back to us.

So England need to beat Ireland by more than 38 points.
Hmmmmmm, that is asking alot of this England team right now.

So in all fairness the 6ns belongs to Wales. OK.

majesticimperialman wrote:So England need to beat Ireland by more than 38 points.
Hmmmmmm, that is asking alot of this England team right now.

So in all fairness the 6ns belongs to Wales. OK.

Only if Wales lose by 1 point. If they lost by 20 England will only need 19 (only? )

I'm still doubtful we'll even beat Ireland never mind get anywhere near the amount, even if Wales actually lose, which I don't think they will.

majesticimperialman wrote:So England need to beat Ireland by more than 38 points.
Hmmmmmm, that is asking alot of this England team right now.

So in all fairness the 6ns belongs to Wales. OK.

Don't you also have to factor in the margin by which Wales could lose to France? Thus if Wales lost to France by say 20 points, then England would need to beat Ireland by a minimum of 19 points.

Yes sure, i wasn't thinking of that to be honest.

I assume the rankings are likely to change again if we beat France next weekend.

In terms of rankings and getting into the top 4 the interesting question this year will be whether wales, england or ireland can achieve some success, especially relative to the others, on their summer tours of Aus/SA/NZ. A win or two away from home against SH opposition would presumably mean a lot of points ranking-wise.

majesticimperialman wrote:I thought the situation was that Wales had over took England into 4th place in the Rankins, and even tough England won yesterday, they was to far behind WALES TO CATCH UP.

Am i wrong to think that?

What margin do Wales have to lose to France by?

And what margin of points do England have beat Ireland by?

For England to win thye 6ns, and for Wales to lose the 6ns?

Can Wales still lose? Or are they too far infront to lose anyway?

call me Mr Picky, but your grammar is appalling!

As much as it pains me to say it, Wales are most likely going to win the 6N's and have a very good chance at the Grand slam.
That generally identified the team as the best in the NH.


However, when you consider the results (so far) between the top 4 teams in the 6Nations, they have all been very close.

England were expected to be wiped off the park by the Welsh, but it came down to the final few minutes.
Ireland were right in it with Wales too, and it could have gone either way at the death.
The French and the Irish played out a draw, and the English just managed to beat the French at the weekend.


Now, forget world rankings and 6nations positions for a moment.
Would any of you want to bet your house on a match between any one of these teams?

To me, it's all a bit too close to call.


As an Englishman, I'm glad to see our (almost) scratch side mixing it with the more stable sides like the Irish (hopefully) and Welsh.
If we can come out of this tournament with another win (and that's a big IF), then I feel that with more time together, we may be able to build ourselves into a very strong side that no-one will relish playing against.

Exciting times really... Good to see 4 competitive teams in the 6Nations

Morgan, who said top 3 ? Was it in one of your bad dreams ?
With only one game left an English rise from 6 to 3 is not possible. In fact this was not possible before the Paris game. There is a very tightly banded set of sides in the 4 - 6 range 81-83 with little IRB space separating. A v good Wales side are up for the slam, and well done to you for that. We can all chirp back at each other again after the summer tours, you can relax now and enjoy your slam.

I think Wales will be ahead by December unfortunately. I'll take 5th place ahead of France

biltongbek wrote:If the rankings are so close that france, wales, england, Ireland and Argentina are all within a point from each other, does the fact that one team is but mere decimal points ahead of another really provide bragging rights?

No more than Wales getting bragging rights because of one penalty's difference in Dublin and one non-awarded try at Twickenham.

Alex_Germany wrote:

biltongbek wrote:If the rankings are so close that france, wales, england, Ireland and Argentina are all within a point from each other, does the fact that one team is but mere decimal points ahead of another really provide bragging rights?

No more than Wales getting bragging rights because of one penalty's difference in Dublin and one non-awarded try at Twickenham.

Well mate, that is of course a can of worms of epic proportions to suggest that.

World rankings and seedings mean little to me. If we get one of NZ,South Africa or Australia in our world cup pool so be it. You have to beat the best to be the best - well normally.

England will obviously have home advantage in 2015 which will be a nice boost.

It's all about building towards the tournament.

Alex_Germany wrote:

biltongbek wrote:If the rankings are so close that france, wales, england, Ireland and Argentina are all within a point from each other, does the fact that one team is but mere decimal points ahead of another really provide bragging rights?

No more than Wales getting bragging rights because of one penalty's difference in Dublin and one non-awarded try at Twickenham.

If we (England) had won due to a penalty in one game, and a disputed try in another, I'd be more than happy to take it.
Therefore, if the Welsh do go on to win the slam, good luck to them.
(I'll obviously be cheering for France and a 40 point swing..... but I know it's not gonna happen )

However, as English fans we can console ourselves knowing how poor we were last year at the RWC.... and how we're now very close on the heels of the top NH teams.
In realistic terms, that's considerable progress.
Now what we need is some kind of continuity and improvement.

The points difference in the six nations is the reverse of last years I think.

England went into the final weekend with roughly a 40 points advantage over Wales. England lost to Ireland by a decent margin(Cant remember 20 points or there abouts), and I think Wales needed to beat France by about 15 points to win the championship. But Wales lost aswell so the points difference became irrelevant. Basically Wales had a manageable shot at the title, but came up short.

So the six nations title is not academic yet! Wales of course massive favourites, but we all know what France are like and this might be the game they actually turn up. An England may play a blinder against Ireland, and get the points they need.

Love the six nations.

Point is, England, France, Wales and Ireland are very close at the moment.

I think Australia and South Africa might lose a game in the AIs, though I think New Zealand will be a step ahead.

Don't get bitchy lads, unless you want to make the grin on my face wider.

And yes, all of them!

Current IRB rankings

4(6) ENGLAND 82.93
5(5) WALES 82.62
6(4) FRANCE 82.61
7(7) IRELAND 80.55

If Wales win they move to 83.32 or 83.67 with a 15 point margin 4th spot
If Wales lose they move to 81.32 or 80.67 with a 15 point margin 6th spot
If France win, they move to 83.91 or 84.56 with a 15 point margin 4th or 3rd spot
If France lose, they move to 81.91 or 81.56 with a 15 point margin - no change

If England win, they move to 83.39 or 83.62 with a 15 point margin 4th or 5th
If England lose, they move to 81.39 or 80.62 with a 15 point margin 6th or 7th
If Ireland win, they move to 82.09 or 82.86 with a 15 point margin 5th at best
If Ireland lose, they move to 80.09 or 79.86 with a 15 point margin 8th spot

biltongbek wrote:If the rankings are so close that france, wales, england, Ireland and Argentina are all within a point from each other, does the fact that one team is but mere decimal points ahead of another really provide bragging rights?

no good point -but people dont look at it like that bilt- i haver tried to reason with em on plenty of occasions but there you go!!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:



Wales only ever beat sides who are out of the top 4.

They beat England and England are top four?

I'd laugh myself to the grave if England won this 6 nations. It isn't impossible, just improbable.

EnglishReign wrote:I'd laugh myself to the grave if England won this 6 nations. It isn't impossible, just improbable.

Yes that would be pretty funny. Do you think England can beat Ireland? They look very good.

very improbalble- id give us 200 to 1, however who would have thought we would be the only 'other' team to have a chance at this point?

mystiroakey wrote:very improbalble- id give us 200 to 1, however who would have thought we would be the only 'other' team to have a chance at this point?

No different to Wales last year.

yep very similar- and both teams are in the reverse position this time