Biting in Eng v Ire

First topic message reminder :

Just a quick post to clarify that there was no gouging in the Eng-Ire match. It's come out that the Irish players were complaining of biting, specifically on Ferris's finger.

Full story here:

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland/rugby/story/161365.html

Kiwireddevil wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:About time Hartley was caught again.

Innocent until proven guilty Maes.

Of course...!

I totally agree that none of us know the answer but that does not mean that it is reasonable to imply that Ferris was guilty of something because of an off the field incident some time ago.

We may still not know the answer after the hearing.

If you must look at history, have a look at Ferris's record on the pitch.

Can you think of an act of play worthy of a citing?

It was always going to be cited following Ferris on field accusation.

Now it'll be investigated and we'll be able to read the report once completed.

biltongbek wrote:Maesteg and Safeasmilk, PM's for you.

Replied biltong

Lively debate here, albeit mostly from one side of the speculation (but understandably so): rival sites

PS: What are PMs, biltongbek? Is that like a yellow card?

MrsP wrote:I totally agree that none of us know the answer but that does not mean that it is reasonable to imply that Ferris was guilty of something because of an off the field incident some time ago.

Or an unrelated onfield incident years ago? Let's leave it, eh?

SimonofSurrey wrote:Lively debate here, albeit mostly from one side of the speculation (but understandably so): rival sites

PS: What are PMs, biltongbek? Is that like a yellow card?

Simon, it is a medical condition.

biltongbek wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:Lively debate here, albeit mostly from one side of the speculation (but understandably so): rival sites

PS: What are PMs, biltongbek? Is that like a yellow card?

Simon, it is a medical condition.

It's not a medical condition, it's a lifestyle choice

SafeAsMilk wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:Lively debate here, albeit mostly from one side of the speculation (but understandably so): rival sites

PS: What are PMs, biltongbek? Is that like a yellow card?

Simon, it is a medical condition.

It's not a medical condition, it's a lifestyle choice

Oh, boy.

SimonofSurrey wrote:

PS: What are PMs, biltongbek? Is that like a yellow card?

The reason the have a rest weekend once a month in the womens 6 nations.

So,

Why do they have the rests in the men's 6 Nations then?

biltongbek wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:Lively debate here, albeit mostly from one side of the speculation (but understandably so): rival sites

PS: What are PMs, biltongbek? Is that like a yellow card?

Simon, it is a medical condition.

It's not a medical condition, it's a lifestyle choice

Oh, boy.

Eh?

MrsP wrote:

So,

Why do they have the rests in the men's 6 Nations then?

Teach, men need their beauty sleep.

MrsP wrote:

So,

Why do they have the rests in the men's 6 Nations then?

To get over all the love bites

SafeAsMilk wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:Lively debate here, albeit mostly from one side of the speculation (but understandably so): rival sites

PS: What are PMs, biltongbek? Is that like a yellow card?

Simon, it is a medical condition.

It's not a medical condition, it's a lifestyle choice

Oh, boy.

Eh?

the Birds and the Bee's.

biltongbek wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:Lively debate here, albeit mostly from one side of the speculation (but understandably so): rival sites

PS: What are PMs, biltongbek? Is that like a yellow card?

Simon, it is a medical condition.

It's not a medical condition, it's a lifestyle choice

Oh, boy.

Eh?

the Birds and the Bee's.

Heh, I was missing the 'T'! It's the T than causes the problems.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

MrsP wrote:

So,

Why do they have the rests in the men's 6 Nations then?

To get over all the love bites

Good one!

If this is proved then the maximum penalty should be given to this thug, his history is a disgrace. People accuse Warburton of bad play after the French Semi Final !! This overwhelms anything Warburton did, in fact this is sickening. Biting an opponent?


England's Dylan Hartley cited for alleged biting against Ireland
England hooker Dylan Hartley faces a disciplinary hearing after being cited for an alleged biting incident during the Six Nations match against Ireland.

The Irish flanker Stephen Ferris drew attention to it during the first half of the match, but the referee Nigel Owens did not see anything himself.

The lowest suspension for biting is 12 weeks, the top entry level 24 weeks, with a maximum sanction of four years.

An independent Six Nations disciplinary committee will hear the case.

A Six Nations statement confirmed he was cited under the law regarding "acts contrary to good sportsmanship".

Hartley had a six-month ban for eye gouging while playing for Northampton against Wasps in 2007.
The Rugby Football Union issued a brief statement following Hartley's citing, saying: "The England management have been formally notified about the citing of Dylan Hartley and will not be making any comment until the resolution of the disciplinary hearing."

Northampton forward Hartley cannot play, pending his disciplinary hearing.

Ferris was heard accusing an England player of biting during the home side's 30-9 win at Twickenham. Biting is a red card offence but, as neither referee Nigel Owens nor his touch judges saw the alleged incident, no action was taken.

Use accessible player and disable flyout menus Highlights - England 30-9 Ireland

Owens, in a conversation recorded on his microphone, told England captain Chris Robshaw and Ireland skipper Rory Best in the 28th minute of Saturday's match: "I have an accusation of biting, a clear mark on the finger.

"I did not see something. If I do it will be dealt with severely, which would be a red card. If it is seen it will be dealt with."

Owens added: "Have a word. Nothing like that takes place in this game. I can only deal with what I see."

As the packs then set up for a scrum, Owens added: "This game is difficult enough without stuff like that, is that clear?"

The referee then approached Ferris, while the back-row forward was receiving treatment from Ireland's physiotherapist, and said: "I have done all I can. It has been noted. If I don't see it, I can't do anything about it.

"It has been spoken about and dealt with."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17440125?print=true

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/161485.html

Hartley has been Cited For biting Ferris. It is dirty play but you have to ask yourself what was Ferris doing putting his fingers in Dylan's mouth.
I know i wouldn't appreciate some one shoving their hand in my mouth and i cant i would not have given the person a little nip if i thought the guy had put his fingers in there on purpose , but thats my views. Am i the only one who would maybe act this way ? Saying that he still should not have done it. Hopefully the Irish got a picture of the injury to show how Serious/Minor the bite was.

Hes obviously going to get a ban but for how long? Keeping in mind he has Previous for Gouging.

I hope he is available for the SA tour because the English front row looked like a it would be a major strength.

"Hartley has been Cited For biting Ferris"

blmn kiwis...

I said on another thread on the club board, what is it with Northampton and their players ? They are always making the headlines for the wrong reasons What are they teaching the players at Northampton, this along with the incident in the LV cup final, makes it look as though there is something really wrong with the ethics of that club and it needs to be eradicated before any serious injury happens to opposing players.

Seriously, i am yet to see any conclusive evidence. Ferris reacted to something immediately but in the replay i cannont see a thing. Hartley may have history but lets not hang the guy until he has had a chance to defend himself. Stop any witch-hunt before it starts

biltongbek wrote:merged the two threads.

https://www.606v2.com/t26125-biting-in-eng-v-ire

and this one?

EngInAuck wrote:http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/161485.html

Hartley has been Cited For biting Ferris. It is dirty play but you have to ask yourself what was Ferris doing putting his fingers in Dylan's mouth.
I know i wouldn't appreciate some one shoving their hand in my mouth and i cant i would not have given the person a little nip if i thought the guy had put his fingers in there on purpose , but thats my views. Am i the only one who would maybe act this way ? Saying that he still should not have done it. Hopefully the Irish got a picture of the injury to show how Serious/Minor the bite was.

Hes obviously going to get a ban but for how long? Keeping in mind he has Previous for Gouging.

I hope he is available for the SA tour because the English front row looked like a it would be a major strength.

I think it might be appropriate to ask IF Stephen Ferris put his hand in Hartley's mouth.

eirebilly wrote:Seriously, i am yet to see any conclusive evidence. Ferris reacted to something immediately but in the replay i cannont see a thing. Hartley may have history but lets not hang the guy until he has had a chance to defend himself. Stop any witch-hunt before it starts

Yea because, in the heat of a very important rugby match, Stephen Ferris had a brainwave "Yes! I'll bite my own finger here, and then I'll run 10 metres over to the ref and show him the bite, I'll say it was Hartley! Yeah, cos I hate Hartley. That'll teach him!"

Wise up, of course the bite happened. The only argument might be that Ferris was 'interfering with his face'. I wouldn't be so naive as to say this isn't likely. But from watching it back, it just looked like a standard rolling a guy over from the ruck american high school wrestling style. Then the camera left the incident which seemed to have flared up.

There will surely be other video angles available to the citing committee. They will tell us whether it was provoked or not, NOT whether a bite occured or not, that is a definate IMV.

Who was it bit Hartleys arm in the HC QF with Ulster last year? Wannenberg? To be fair, Hartley had his forearm in his mouth and was pulling his head off.

IF it turns out Ferris was doing something similar, I am man enough to say, 'fair play Hartley, bite away'.

But with the track record, I imagine it may have been unprovoked.

Quite simply, they are a pair of dirty thug cockspanners and should be kicked out of sport.

If he has bitten Ferris then he rightly should be banned.

However the degree needs to depend on the circumstances.

Was it simply Hartley went out his way to bite..then heavier ban.

If Ferris was being naughty himself putting his finger where he shouldnt( ie hooking Hartleys cheeks)...then it shouldnt be as harsh...as i might possibly (not definite) bite someone if they were putting their fingers in my mouth trying to hook my cheeks...and im not a malicious nasty person.

Though any of this isnt easy to prove either way...

Means Webber may be starting in SA...and Jaimie George may get a run out...

clivemcl wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Seriously, i am yet to see any conclusive evidence. Ferris reacted to something immediately but in the replay i cannont see a thing. Hartley may have history but lets not hang the guy until he has had a chance to defend himself. Stop any witch-hunt before it starts

Yea because, in the heat of a very important rugby match, Stephen Ferris had a brainwave "Yes! I'll bite my own finger here, and then I'll run 10 metres over to the ref and show him the bite, I'll say it was Hartley! Yeah, cos I hate Hartley. That'll teach him!"

Wise up, of course the bite happened. The only argument might be that Ferris was 'interfering with his face'. I wouldn't be so naive as to say this isn't likely. But from watching it back, it just looked like a standard rolling a guy over from the ruck american high school wrestling style. Then the camera left the incident which seemed to have flared up.

There will surely be other video angles available to the citing committee. They will tell us whether it was provoked or not, NOT whether a bite occured or not, that is a definate IMV.

Whats with the Attitude? I say that Ferris reacted but have not seen an conclusive evidence that it was a bite, Forgive me for not wanting to hang someone without a fair trial...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Means Webber may be starting in SA....

errrrr http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2011-12/rugby/story/161482.html

May not even tour

Ah well that could leave us a little light...Gray, George, Lindsay?

It could be a huge problem for England. With the minimum ban being so harsh for biteing even if it is relatively innocuous ( as Ferris' behaviour, the lack of visible blood and the short treatment suggest) it will put Hartley out for the SA tour, or very short of rugby at the least. He has previous bans for foul play, so unless he 'fesses up and shows all holy contrition he wont get any reduction from the 12 weeks at all.
His only chance seems to be the precedent that was set on the time he was bitten, and getting off on that may depend on ferris' testimony as to what exactly happened and exactly when in the sequence of events the bite occurred.

Lancaster will probably make an example of him and drop him anyway. Must say I respect Lancasters zero tolerance stance dropping the likes of Care for his off field stuff etc. seems to have paid dividends.

until we hear Hartley's side of the story then everything else is assumption borne from hope or spite.

If the Irish player was reaching down and had his hand on Hartley's face then he has questions to answer, as the picture shows, its not like this is the scrum or they were right next to each other the same way up.

Unless Hartley was also trying to bite Ferris's man-bits, it seems perfectly plausible that Ferris had his hand where it shouldn't be, rather than Hartley had his face where it shouldn't be.

I think when you scutinise a video to the extent that you're watching for who might be orally fiddling with a player's "man-bits", I think that's a time to stop what you're doing and get back to work.

well I did say - unless, you don't think some people on here read what i wrote and started looking do you

leinsterbaby wrote:Lancaster will probably make an example of him and drop him anyway. Must say I respect Lancasters zero tolerance stance dropping the likes of Care for his off field stuff etc. seems to have paid dividends.

He dropped Care as it was a non-rugby related issue and therefore did not have a rugby related ban. If Hartley is banned then that is the punishment deemed required. If it turns out it was a deliberate act of aggression I'd want Hartley off the squad. If it was in reaction to Ferris' finger accidentally entering his mouth or covering his airways then he can do his time and come back.

SecretFly wrote:I think when you scutinise a video to the extent that you're watching for who might be orally fiddling with a player's "man-bits", I think that's a time to stop what you're doing and get back to work.

leinsterbaby wrote:Lancaster will probably make an example of him and drop him anyway. Must say I respect Lancasters zero tolerance stance dropping the likes of Care for his off field stuff etc. seems to have paid dividends.

I do too, it makes a massive change from other regimes where players were treated so leniently by the RFU in disciplinary matters that it was almost as though the RFU condoned the players behaviour.

All's fair in love and war.

EngInAuck wrote:. It is dirty play but you have to ask yourself what was Ferris doing putting his fingers in Dylan's mouth.

I have to ask myself how you know this.

There has been so much hot air about what Ferris did bit absolutely zero evidence that he ddi anything illegal.

Why did Farrell kick DOC whilst lying on the ground ? ......what's that there is evidence of it.
Doesn't matter I say so.

About as much justification as the claims being made concerning Ferris' actions - you haven't a clue what Ferris did or did not do and I suspect other than Ferris himself nor does anyone else

maestegmafia wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Lancaster will probably make an example of him and drop him anyway. Must say I respect Lancasters zero tolerance stance dropping the likes of Care for his off field stuff etc. seems to have paid dividends.

I do too, it makes a massive change from other regimes where players were treated so leniently by the RFU in disciplinary matters that it was almost as though the RFU condoned the players behaviour.

Yeah imagine if their captain had got red carded in the world cup Johnson probably wouldve put him straight back in and played him even when he was injured.
Its important to set an example otherwise another player might copy it and do exactly the same thing only a few games later......

geoff998rugby wrote:

EngInAuck wrote:. It is dirty play but you have to ask yourself what was Ferris doing putting his fingers in Dylan's mouth.

I have to ask myself how you know this.

There has been so much hot air about what Ferris did bit absolutely zero evidence that he ddi anything illegal.

Why did Farrell kick DOC whilst lying on the ground ? ......what's that there is evidence of it.
Doesn't matter I say so.

About as much justification as the claims being made concerning Ferris' actions - you haven't a clue what Ferris did or did not do and I suspect other than Ferris himself nor does anyone else

Nor do you have any evidence that Hartley bit Ferris.

yes he has been cited meaning there will be an investigation and hearing, and yes Ferris had a bite mark on his finger and reckons Hartley did it.

But you show me the evidence of Hartley biting Ferris. At present there is none. All of what is being spoken about is conjecture.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Nor do you have any evidence that Hartley bit Ferris.

yes he has been cited meaning there will be an investigation and hearing, and yes Ferris had a bite mark on his finger and reckons Hartley did it.

But you show me the evidence of Hartley biting Ferris. At present there is none. All of what is being spoken about is conjecture.

Carefull Ozzy, your bordering on sane conversation here. Surely Hartley should be hung drawn and quartered simply because he has priors

Nobody saw the bite but all that other stuff needs urgent investigation - the things people did see, that is.

There's the man-bits, the tonsil tickle, the lost ear, the mole who realised it had taken a wrong turn, the warbling of the incendiary Swing Low by Hartley, the horseshoed boxing glove thump to Ferris's kidneys, the secret poker game, the boiled rabbit stew, the dirty magazine, the cigarette burns on Hartley's eyeballs, the beaten up streaker and the lost little lady looking for the earliest bus to Basingstoke.

A lot of unexplained stuff going on in that melee when I looked at it a second time in slow motion.

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I think when you scutinise a video to the extent that you're watching for who might be orally fiddling with a player's "man-bits", I think that's a time to stop what you're doing and get back to work.

Especially if you find yourself to enjoying it.