Biting in Eng v Ire

First topic message reminder :

Just a quick post to clarify that there was no gouging in the Eng-Ire match. It's come out that the Irish players were complaining of biting, specifically on Ferris's finger.

Full story here:

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland/rugby/story/161365.html

doctor_grey wrote:I have a radical suggestion:
Since we don't have all the evidence in front of us, why not wait until the results of the hearing are published.

If they find Hartley had a bite to eat, then throw him out on his derriere. For a long, long time.
If they find there is no evidence, then we let it go.

Since it is, I presume, too late for any 'fish hooking' complaint against Ferris, the incident will end at the hearing.

A radical suggestion.... and a very unsettling one too. I think that's much too controversal an approach to be honest, grey. And I'd actually caution you to tone down further contributions lest you be banned from this site!

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I have a radical suggestion:
Since we don't have all the evidence in front of us, why not wait until the results of the hearing are published.

If they find Hartley had a bite to eat, then throw him out on his derriere. For a long, long time.
If they find there is no evidence, then we let it go.

Since it is, I presume, too late for any 'fish hooking' complaint against Ferris, the incident will end at the hearing.

A radical suggestion.... and a very unsettling one too. I think that's much too controversal an approach to be honest, grey. And I'd actually caution you to tone down further contributions lest you be banned from this site!

Ha ha nonsense but highly amusing nonetheless!

You migth as well shut this site down altogether and suck all the fun out of life while you're at it Mr-let's-wait-and-see-boring-face!

ha ha

Lookey for the result - sure we have to wait. I'm putting my theory down now. Putting it in the time capsule now.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Submachine wrote:

He will probably bring his finger. Maybe all of them. I've heard that a mould has been taken of the indentations in Ferris' finger and a celebrity dentist will be on hand to confirm that they are indeed the left front incisor and canine of one Dylan Hartley. But it's all just ipso facto at the moment Rodney.

A what!!!!!

An expert witness type guy. Think Robbie Coltraine in Cracker except with gnashers.

It was Mrs White in the dining room with the candlestick.

SecretFly wrote:No need to be insulting about little green men, Carpe................. you won, that should be enough.

yeah, I don't think they have teeth either, just gums.

nobbled wrote:It was Mrs White in the dining room with the candlestick.

If you are suggesting that we call Mrs White as our Expert dentist I would have serious doubts about her qualifications if she's using a candlestick!!

Just been doing some research and apparently Twickers has had a problem with Mole Sharks for some years. These feisty little land fish are famous for tunneling under rucks and nibbling on exposed appendages. That's what happens when the RFU spend all their budget on kidnapping foreigners to play for us and not on eradicating the Mole Shark issue. Nothing to see here.

MrsP wrote:




If you are suggesting that we call Mrs White as our Expert dentist I would have serious doubts about her qualifications if she's using a candlestick!!

Not expert dentist,celebrity dentist.

Actually that's a reality t.v. show I'd watch.Failed boy band memebers,washed up sport stars and t.v. presenters from the 70's all competing to see who can do the most number of successful root canals.
I might just pitch that to Sky 1.

Not the other way round then? I'd pay to watch some Z lister have invasive dental surgery.

Carpe Diem wrote:Not the other way round then? I'd pay to watch some Z lister have invasive dental surgery.

+1

Carpe Diem wrote:Not the other way round then? I'd pay to watch some Z lister have invasive dental surgery.

Maybe they could work on each other,they'd all have to share a house and then any bust ups would have funny consequences.

Genius! pitch now!

Where does the candlestick come into all this?

Quality stuff today

MrsP wrote:

Where does the candlestick come into all this?

Hmmm,they have to complete tasks and if they fail them the surgery is done by candlelight?Either that or the anasthetic is a candlestick to the back of the head.

eirebilly wrote:Quality stuff today

Sure isn't there always when I'm around?

Just been reading-back the comments and have a couple of questions:

Firstly, Triangulation, you're putting a lot of stock in Ferris hot having repeated his allegation post-match, but from my memory of incidents in the past this seems irrelevant: he knew the authorities were aware, thereafter is the process not for the citing commissioner to call the hearing and the witnesses? I'm not saying your fish-hooking scenario didn't happen, but the fact that Ferris hasn't come out shouting about it in public doesn't really seem to me like evidence to backup the scenario you paint.

Secondly, let's say that Ferris fish-hooked Hartley, and Hartley bit him: how much of a mitigating factor would this be? Surely both could expect lengthy bans in this scenario anyway?

Finally I'd just like to say that as an Englishman I really hope this allegation isn't true but, at the same time, I recognise Hartley for what he is - a hot-head who sometimes crosses the line between physicality and thuggery. As such, if it is true he deserves to have the book well and truly thrown at him.

Ferris is absolutely bricking it.

He tried to wind us all up collectively pre kick off.

Then he fish hooked Hartley to wind him up. No doubt hoping for punch on the nose in front of the linesman.

Then he cried about it.

And his mates joined in.

Nothing happened.

Now he is going to be called to repeat his slur on oath.

and be cross examined as to the circumstances.

Watch as this one melts away into the ether.

Does anyone else think we should call a Doctor?

A celebrity doctor?

Celebrity Doctors on ICE?

Thatmust have been some celebration if your still drunk Tri

Carpe Diem wrote:Celebrity Doctors on ICE?

Put an ice rink in the jungle and we're really starting to motor.

Triangulation wrote:Ferris is absolutely bricking it.

He tried to wind us all up collectively pre kick off. [not exactly the first to indulge in mindgames...]

Then he fish hooked Hartley to wind him up. [careful, absolutely no proof of any such thing...] No doubt hoping for punch on the nose in front of the linesman. [...more subjectivity]

Then he cried about it. [Erm, no he didn't - he complained to the ref that his finger had been bitten]

And his mates joined in. [Did they really? I though N Owens had a word with him, then Robshaw in the presence of R Best to say he hadn't seen anything but 'this kind of thing has no place in this game']

Nothing happened. [Yes it did. N Owens, having explained to SF he hadn't seen any such foul play - but not that he didn't believe him - clearly said what would happen if he saw such behaviour himself.]

Now he is going to be called to repeat his slur [subjective x3] on oath.

and be cross examined as to the circumstances.

Watch as this one melts away into the ether. [so you say, others of us await the outcome with a less convinced view at this stage of the outcome]

Yikes, Triangulation! Them's fighting words to which I've offered counter comments to lower the blood pressure of some of our Irish friends here who read your words.

Carpe Diem wrote:Celebrity Doctors on ICE?

I know just the person!!!!!!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Celebrity Doctors on ICE?

Put an ice rink in the jungle and we're really starting to motor.

Is someone taking notes, this stuff is solid gold!!!!!!!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Celebrity Doctors on ICE?

Put an ice rink in the jungle and we're really starting to motor.

Scratch that! They are busy!

SimonofSurrey wrote:

Yikes, Triangulation! Them's fighting words to which I've offered counter comments to lower the blood pressure of some of our Irish friends here who read your words.

Oh I wouldn't worry too much about Irish blood-pressure and Tri. I think Tri thinks he's talking to Welshmen...the cliched certain kind (not all of them)that take offence easily. I don't think he'll ever learn that we're a different species.

Ferris has a very clean record and was doing his best to be a WUM on instructions from Desperate Kidney.

It is going horribly wrong for him.....he's out of his depth.....

........to be continued..........

SecretFly wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:

Yikes, Triangulation! Them's fighting words to which I've offered counter comments to lower the blood pressure of some of our Irish friends here who read your words.

Oh I wouldn't worry too much about Irish blood-pressure and Tri. I think Tri thinks he's talking to Welshmen...the cliched certain kind (not all of them)that take offence easily. I don't think he'll ever learn that we're a different species.

Nah c'mon just having fun.

Speculation.

Its all sub judice sub judice.

Wait and see.

I know that.

For all i know Hartley did wrong and will be banned for 4 years.

MrsP wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Celebrity Doctors on ICE?

I know just the person!!!!!!

Didn't that Dr Hillary bloke off ITV do that already?

What might be the worst kind of case with biting? I would guess that is when someone is trapped in a ruck and the 'biter' uses the opportunity to do some serious damage. That is bad and the 'biter' deserves everything he gets

In this case Ferris is the 'trapper' not the 'trappee'

From the video on iplayer his hand is around the area of Hartley's face and I for one cant see Hartley move his head. I have no idea how much damage was done to the finger. Someone claimed he needed a plaster and that may well be true but I just cant tell. It just all seems a bit silly - even sillier given that Ferris - a very tough player (in the correct ways) then goes running to the ref like a child shouting 'sir sir he bit me'. Being uncharitable it seems he is trying to influence the ref to get an English player sent off.

So the end result is that we have Ferris very unlikely to have done anything against the letter of the law but potentially going all wendyball - and Hartley who may have done something bad but
1) its going to be hard to prove either way.
2) there may well be mitigating circumstances (which would still mean a ban but a shorter one) or
3) it may be entirely possible given the relative locations of head and hand that Hartley had his gob open and Ferris had his fingers jammed in that area by accident.

I have no idea really, but its not exactly in the realm of, say Kevin Yates

If Ferris hadn't told the ref and shown him the marks on his finger we would never have known about it.

Do you think it was good that NZ didn't tell anyone about Rougerie gouging so he is free to do it again?

I know we can not prejudge what happened or what evidence there will be but you can not fault a player for bringing the ref's attention to an act of foul play.

I know what you mean MrsP and likewise with the Callum Clark incident on the weekend I would actually say that Tigers would be irresponsible to not bring it up AFTER the game and have the player cited.

There is a slight difference though, between a bite on the finger and eye gouging or dislocation. Especially when two cases in my mind were clear cut and this one is very very murky.

It's only murky because you didn't see it.

Perhaps to Ferris it was crystal clear?

He couldn't know that the BBC director had changed camera views, could he?

Triangulation wrote:

For all i know Hartley did wrong and will be banned for 4 years.

4 YEARS!!!!! that's ridiculous!!!! drugs can get you 2 and so can most of the gouging incidents, so why would a BITE get you 4!!!!
I think you mean 4 months as most biting gets you 12 weeks.

I've seen the incident more than 10 times and the thing that gets on my nerves the most is the way Stephen Ferris and Donncha O'callaghan conducted themselves. They reminded me of this annoying girl when I was in elementary school who started nagging me one day and when I told her to shut up she ran straight to the teacher, all the while keeping her eyes on me, complaining about me being rude. Of course the teacher dismissed her claim because she was fed up with her.
I found their action childish, immature and bratty.

faraway wrote:They reminded me of this annoying girl when I was in elementary school who started nagging me one day and when I told her to shut up she ran straight to the teacher, all the while keeping her eyes on me, complaining about me being rude. Of course the teacher dismissed her claim because she was fed up with her.
I found their action childish, immature and bratty.

Would you feel the same way had you bitten her?

But did you bite her, faraway?

Would she have been the same annoying girl if she was your friend and someone had bitten her and she had told the teacher?.

Biting is just the sort of grown up manly practice that I'm sure the IRB want to promote to attract youngsters into the game. They should really get a grip and take the citing commissioner to task for wasting their resources on such a trivial non-event.

Come to think of it is gouging really that much worse? All just part of the game and sorts the men from the boys.

The IRB could do worse than introduce a few wild animals onto the pitch to spice things up a bit as well. Literally having Lions or Tigers on the pitch should swell the viewing figures and get plenty of media coverage. Lets see how the Wallabies would fare against some real Lions.

I wouldn't go as far as introducing celebrity dentists though - that would be just too cruel, although a few celebrity vets might be useful just to keep the Sunday night audience happy.

Yes, Aukster, I agree. I've always said that the Roman games that fed Christians to the lions was rashly done away with by the PC brigade who inevitably kill off all good sporting occasions.

asoreleftshoulder

let me clarify, in my old school telling someone to "shut up" and generally being rude was some what of a sin. I would have been in big trouble if the teacher had actually listened to her that day, but lucky me the teacher was fed up. Even though what I did, impulsively, was wrong according to the school rules, I still found her action annoying and bratty.
And that's what I'm correlating with this incident; even though what Hartley allegedly have done is against the laws, running like that to the ref looked very unprofessional. The only thing that was missing was ferris yelling "i'm gonna tell, i'm gonna tell!!!", yet again maybe the microphone didn't catch that part.

Triangulation wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I have a radical suggestion:
Since we don't have all the evidence in front of us, why not wait until the results of the hearing are published.

If they find Hartley had a bite to eat, then throw him out on his derriere. For a long, long time.
If they find there is no evidence, then we let it go.

Since it is, I presume, too late for any 'fish hooking' complaint against Ferris, the incident will end at the hearing.

A radical suggestion.... and a very unsettling one too. I think that's much too controversal an approach to be honest, grey. And I'd actually caution you to tone down further contributions lest you be banned from this site!

Ha ha nonsense but highly amusing nonetheless!

You migth as well shut this site down altogether and suck all the fun out of life while you're at it Mr-let's-wait-and-see-boring-face!

ha ha

Lookey for the result - sure we have to wait. I'm putting my theory down now. Putting it in the time capsule now.

OK, I get it. But do you want the truth?
Really?

Ferris and Hartley are lovers. Have been for years. They had a falling out over who gets to lead at the big dance. Ferris tried to tweak Hartley's nose in the ruck. He missed and impaled his finger against Hartley's teeth.

faraway wrote:asoreleftshoulder

let me clarify, in my old school telling someone to "shut up" and generally being rude was some what of a sin. I would have been in big trouble if the teacher had actually listened to her that day, but lucky me the teacher was fed up. Even though what I did, impulsively, was wrong according to the school rules, I still found her action annoying and bratty.
And that's what I'm correlating with this incident; even though what Hartley allegedly have done is against the laws, running like that to the ref looked very unprofessional. The only thing that was missing was ferris yelling "i'm gonna tell, i'm gonna tell!!!", yet again maybe the microphone didn't catch that part.

No the part that was missing is physical assault

But if she was just a girl and hadn't been nagging you and you told her to shut up or bite her?

Would she be justified in complaining to the teacher then?

There is no evidence that Ferris was "nagging" Hartley.

He may have been making a nuisance of himself at the breakdown, but that's what he is paid to do.

asoreleftshoulder and MrsP aaargh you two!!!! I said the way they ran back to the ref REMINDED me of the annoying girl running back to the teacher. It would not have bugged me if they went through their captain first instead of crowding the ref going all "he bit me look ref he bit me!!!!", after all what's the captain's role if the other players ignore him and go straight to the ref. The last thing I want is for rugby players to act like football players!

The Great Aukster wrote:

The IRB could do worse than introduce a few wild animals onto the pitch to spice things up a bit as well.

Whatever happened to Flannery?

OK incase anyone hadnt noticed Tri is just on the wind up

faraway wrote:asoreleftshoulder and MrsP aaargh you two!!!! I said the way they ran back to the ref REMINDED me of the annoying girl running back to the teacher. It would not have bugged me if they went through their captain first instead of crowding the ref going all "he bit me look ref he bit me!!!!", after all what's the captain's role if the other players ignore him and go straight to the ref. The last thing I want is for rugby players to act like football players!

Be fair now faraway.

There was a knock on so the forwards were organising for a scrum when Ferris quietly went over to talk to Owens.

There is no crowding around the ref at all!

I agree he didn't go through Best but come on!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfJu3oSBx0M

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:OK incase anyone hadnt noticed Tri is just on the wind up

No way????

MrsP wrote:

faraway wrote:asoreleftshoulder and MrsP aaargh you two!!!! I said the way they ran back to the ref REMINDED me of the annoying girl running back to the teacher. It would not have bugged me if they went through their captain first instead of crowding the ref going all "he bit me look ref he bit me!!!!", after all what's the captain's role if the other players ignore him and go straight to the ref. The last thing I want is for rugby players to act like football players!

Be fair now faraway.

There was a knock on so the forwards were organising for a scrum when Ferris quietly went over to talk to Owens.

There is no crowding around the ref at all!

I agree he didn't go through Best but come on!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfJu3oSBx0M

Yeah he only speaks to Owens very very briefly then jogs off. The other players are just standing up and looking to see whats going on, hands on hips. They actually dealt with it very calmly, and just got on with the game.

The idea of players running off crying to the ref does seem a bit "unsporting" and against tradition, but the refs do ask teams to come to them rather than seeking retribution through foul play of their own. Hes only done what he is supposed to in that situation ( assuming he didnt fake the injury etc)

Makes me wonder about this white card system though, exactly what difference would it have made/ Other than bringing the allegation to the attention of the public and causing an almighty internet sh1t storm mid game? This was still logged, reported and cited in exactly the same way...just without the gimmick and public announcement. I dont like the idea of players being issued censures for things the officials havent seen and being put in a position where they feel persecuted with no recourse to defend themselves mid game.