Is Warren Gatland the right coach for the Lions?

First topic message reminder :

He's a Kiwi. He's touchy. He's grumpy. And he's managed to get Wales to a semi-final in the RWC and to the top of the 6 Nations tree in 2012.

He's the only coach that the British & Irish Lions managment are likely to select since they said it would be based on 6N form.

Welsh players like and respect him. But would he get the same response from Scottish, English and Irish players to bind them into a Lions team that can compete and win next year in Australia?

[Edit]

To clarify, I'm not questioning as to whether he'll get time off from the WRU - they've already said they will accommodate him.

I'm not questioning the fact that he's a foreign coach (the Kiwi comments was intended as a joke). He's got the best creds of the 6 Nations coaches, with probably Lancaster the second best given 6N results.

The question is whether he has the ability as Head Coach - and the guy who'll make the final call on the touring party - to get the British and Irish Lions to cohere and compete as a team. Does he command sufficient respect and can he get buy-in from players from other nations besides Wales?

Is Warren Gatland the right coach for the Lions?
At the risk of sounding xenophobic, I want an English, Irish, Scottish, or Welsh coach. I feel the same about the coach of the major Rugby nations they should have home-grown coaches since the coach is part of the team, same as the players. I feel the same should apply to the Lions.

I like Gatland as a coach. Thought he was great at Wasps. And doing fine with Wales. But the idea of a Kiwi taking a bunch of English, Irish, Scots, and Welsh to Australia just doesn't ring right for me.

doctor_grey wrote:a Kiwi taking a bunch of English, Irish, Scots, and Welsh to Australia...

Evening doc...geez was looking forward to a good punchline for that one...

Know what you mean though...one day we'll have to 'trust' an overseas coach with our abs but the reality is the risk is now bigger if they dont take gatland. Lancaster is just too raw for the responsibility and anyone else either isnt coaching winning teams or coaching at the level at all.

Taylor,
Sorry about missing an opportunity for a good laugh. I just had my morning coffee. Its only 5:00am here. It sounded like it should be good: A Kiwi leads a bunch of English, Irish, Scots, and Welsh into a bar in Australia, and the one eyed woman says...........
(or something like that)

For me , it’s not about the competence of the coach. But it is something which will drive the coaching development process in each of the major nations. I know it’s the wrong word to use, but going outside the family seems a bit lazy to me. I think if nations can develop their own players, they should develop their own coaches, as well. The added benefit is there would be more good coaches, meaning more good Rugby, and more good coaches available to help develop the second and third tier nations.

And, by the way, I think it would be a sad day when the ABs are coached by someone from outside.

I think that Gatland has earned the spot.

- Has been head coach of Wales for 4 years.
- Has won 2 Six Nations Grandslams
- Has been forwards coach on a previous Lions tour
- Has been head coach of Ireland for 3 years
- Has been head coach of an English club side for 3 years
- Has won the Heineken Cup with an English club team

To me he is the clear and obvious choice.

Gatland might be a good choice as he is (despite the obvious connection to Wales) not part of the tribe - and you know what we are like for infighting.

Of course if we take along a Kiwi coach, then that will surely pull the teeth of those that only will accept 'pure bloods'.

(Although where you are going to get a pure blood Englishman - considering the thousands of years worth of immigration to these shores is anybodies guess)

World Cup semi-final with an (at the time) unfancied team as well.

Bottom line for me is, if we don't pick Gatland we probably won't win the test series. If we do I genuinely believe we can.

For me it has to be a B&I coach leading a B&I Lions team - I still can't actually fathom out on some levels (I can on some) the glee and pleasure on Shaun Edwards face when Wales beat England - The guy is a passionate englishman

We can win it without Gatland IMO, what we might lose on one level we would gain on another. Ruddock, O'Shea, Rowntree, Lancaster - There's plenty to choose from

Ruby - Gatland has spent the last 15 years coaching exclusively in Britain and Ireland. I think its nonsense to say that he shouldnt get it because of where he was born. Since 1998 he has been in the UK and Ireland.

red_stag wrote:I think that Gatland has earned the spot.

- Has been head coach of Wales for 4 years.
- Has won 2 Six Nations Grandslams
- Has been forwards coach on a previous Lions tour
- Has been head coach of Ireland for 3 years
- Has been head coach of an English club side for 3 years
- Has won the Heineken Cup with an English club team

To me he is the clear and obvious choice.

+1

It has to be Gats, maybe MJ deserves a chance too?

I agree with Gatts as stand out choice

But why mention SL?

You might just aswell include Nick Mallett.

Hersh, at one point I would have welcomed MJ. I think though that his reputation is in tatters and he gives off now the impression he was unable to wield the same commanding respect as a manager than as a player. A shame as last year he was a Six Nations winning coach who had been on 3 separate Lions tours, captaining two.

However that ship has sailed.

MJ

red_stag wrote:Ruby - Gatland has spent the last 15 years coaching exclusively in Britain and Ireland. I think its nonsense to say that he shouldnt get it because of where he was born. Since 1998 he has been in the UK and Ireland.

Stag - you're completely missing the point - I'm welsh and love Gatland - If he was here for another 50 years he would still be a passionate Kiwi - Rugby is alreay becoming a national mockery with players - The B&I Lions for me has to retain something British in its leadership or its the thin end of the wedge and in time the B&I Lions will look something like

15 - Howarth
14 - Vainikolo
13 - Tuilagi
12 - Barritt
11 - Jones-Hughes
10 - Parks
9 - Boss
8 -Tuitopolola
7 -Sinkinson
6 - Waldrom
5 - Botha
4 -Hines
3 -Stevens
2 -Hartley
1 - Rogers

Coach - George Mannu Van De Villiers

British and Irish Lions my axxx - It has to stop somewhere - The SH must be wetting themselves with laughter

Not sure its really a funny choice

12 months ago he was looking like a real contender. However the RWC and the report afterwards put paid to that.

Why would the SH be wetting themselves with laughter. I'd be annoyed if loads of Irish players went off to represent Australia or New Zealand.

That being said I one billion per cent disagree that we need a British or Irish coach. To me its more about understanding the playing culture here. Gatland gets how we do it - he's coached in England, he's coached in Ireland and coached in Wales. He's never coached professionally outside of the UK/Ireland.

The issue in relation to the players you list is that qualification is too easy - grannies and the short residency period. That needs amending but for another thread.

Head Coach: Gatland
Assistant Coaches: Rowntree (Scrummaging/Forwards), Farrell (Attack), Edwards (Defence)

my starting 15

15. Kearney
14. Cuthbert
13. Davies
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Farrell
9. Phillips

8. Faletau/Morgan
7. Warburton
6. Lydiate/Croft/Ferris
5. Parling/Evans
4. Gray
3. Jones/Cole
2. Rees/Best/Owens
1. Jenkins/Corbisiero

Gavin I think thats an excellent coaching team.

Though your starting team is a bit of "sitting on the fence"

6 of the 15 is undecided

I just think it's hypocrisy that people are fine with a foreign coach in their actual national side, but against the exact same coach taking charge of the Lions. Especially since the Lions is a team that isn't a national side, but a composite side like the Barbarians drawn from several different countries and two different nations.

To be fair Notch I think the people arguing against non British/Irish coaches want the same thing for their national team. ie. Irishmen coaching Ireland, Welsh coaching Welsh etc.

don't agree with Farrell as the attack coach, but like all those other coaches, Gav

MJ could chair the party planning committee

Farrell as the attack coach - we going for chargedowns or what

RubyGuby wrote:The B&I Lions for me has to retain something British in its leadership

Gatland has coached in Ireland and in Britain. Yet he remains a passionate Kiwi. True, and his love of his country and perhaps a desire to one day coach it is something to be respected.

I'm passionately Irish........ not in any way British. Does that make our players (the Republic ones) outsiders too? If we're let in, I'm sure a place can be saved for Gatland

stag yes it is sitting on the fence, because i believe in the indecided positions there is so much competition and some of the choices will come down on how they want to play,

the back row for example, if the lions want to play a open fast game they may choose croft as he gives more pace and carrying in open, where as if they want to nullify the aussies at the breakdown they may want to put lydiate, or if they want power ferris etc

in the second row i cant decide between parling and evans, evans has been superb but ive also been impressed by parling

and front row again its very close, i think the welsh props may have had the edge slightly in the scrum against england however cole is very jenkins-esq in his work rate, and hooker...well its another position thats open cant make my mind up....

i put farrell as attack coach-i assumed that he fills this role for england is this right?

I know Gav, it just seems funny to me to go to the effort of picking a starting 15 when you are undeiceded on almost half the positions.

I think Farrell actually could be a good shout for attack coach.

Stag, Ruby said that he was Welsh and that he loved Gatland

SecretFly wrote:I'm passionately Irish........ not in any way British. Does that make our players (the Republic ones) outsiders too? If we're let in, I'm sure a place can be saved for Gatland

This. If the Lions used to be about representing Britain it isn't anymore, hence the name change to British and Irish Lions. If anything, for me, the Lions is about rivals who would never support each other under normal circumstances coming together and learning to be a team and getting to a point where nationality simply doesn't matter.

I appreciate that's just my personal perspective, but that's why I'm so baffled at the problems people have with Gatland or even Riki Flutey or someone. It doesn't matter if he's a Kiwi; it's whether or not he's a Lion that I care about.

Anyway, are we doing Lions XVs then?The ultimate time waster/rugby pub chat?

Fine, here we go. Any excuse!

Head Coach; Warren Gatland
Assistant Coaches; Graham Rowntree (scrum), Shaun Edwards (defence), Conor O'Shea (attack), Dave Alred (kicking)

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Rory Best
3. Adam Jones
4. Richie Gray
5. Paul O'Connell (c)
6. Stephen Ferris
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Owen Farrell
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Ben Foden

16. Matthew Rees 17. Dan Cole 18. Alun-Wyn Jones 19. Dan Lydiate/Dave Denton 20. Greig Laidlaw 21. Scott Williams 22. Leigh Halfpenny

Personally I'm still very much of the opinion that the Lions should be opened up to players from any European country.

Taylorman

I understand what you're saying to an extent in terms of familiarity but at the same time you are punishing more deserving players of a squad place/test spot... i.e. Tom Croft initial exclusion in 09 over players like Andy Powell... remember Tom Croft had an amazing season up to that point and eventually was nominated for world player of the year by the end.

The same with the whole JW debarcle in 05... he wasn't fit, he shouldn't have toured and the whole Jones at 10, Henson at 12 combination was lost... yet SCW trusted him and hoped he would bring his A game... he didn't we all knew it wasn't right at the time. The subsequent affect on players such as Jones, Williams & Henson on their morale was telling... it doesn't matter how good I am and how much better I am then the next guy.... I won't get a test spot and it brought the whole side crashing down.

In terms of treading carefully, I mean making sure the squad selection committee has checks and balances. The McGeechan, Gatland, Edwards trio seemed a bit of a wasps old boys reunion. Take Gatland for instance but not his backroom staff. Lancaster would be a good number 2 for instance as he doesn't have a big man ego (at least yet).

'If anything, for me, the Lions is about rivals who would never support each other under normal circumstances coming together and learning to be a team and getting to a point where nationality simply doesn't matter.'

Totally agree notch its the challenge of players from four completely different countries coming together as one to beat one of the best teams in the world in their back yard, as telfer said 'its your f***ing everest boys' i love it!

Also if lancaster gets overlooked for the england job reckon he should go as part of set up potentially dunno in what role tho

Head Coaches; Ruddock/Connor O'Shea
Assistant Coaches; Graham Rowntree (scrum), Shaun Edwards (defence), Conor O'Shea (attack), Johnny Wilkinson (kicking)

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Rory Best
3. Adam Jones
4. Richie Gray
5. Ian Evans
6. Stephen Ferris
7. Sam Warburton (Capt)
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Johnny Sexton
11. George North
12. John Davies
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Tim Visser
15. Rob Kearney

16. Matthew Rees 17. Dan Cole 18. Alun-Wyn Jones 19. Dan Lydiate 20. Priestland 21. Scott Williams 22. Leigh Halfpenny

Gavin - Im not even entertaining the idea of Lancaster not getting the England job. But yes if he doesnt he should throw his hat in the ring.

Notch- it would be interesting but I dont see the French going for it. I was talking to French fans at the weekend. From a group of around 150 only about 20 or so seemed enthused by the idea.

My own team (trying to second guess things a year down the line) would be looking like:

01 Cian Healy
02 Ross Ford
03 Adam Jones
04 Richie Gray
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Stephen Ferris
07 Sam Warburton (c)
08 Toby Faletau
09 Mike Phillips
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 George North
12 Jonathan Davies
13 Manu Tuilagi
14 Tim Visser
15 Leigh Halfpenny

16 Rory Best
17 Dan Cole
18 Alun Wyn Jones
19 Chris Robshaw
20 Mike Blair
21 Owen Farrell
22 Tommy Bowe

Ruby - interesting choice of coaches especially Ruddock. Would you have him back in Wales? Is he wasting his time with Ireland U20?

RubyGuby wrote:Head Coaches; Ruddock/Connor O'Shea
Assistant Coaches; Graham Rowntree (scrum), Shaun Edwards (defence), Conor O'Shea (attack), Johnny Wilkinson (kicking)

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Rory Best
3. Adam Jones
4. Richie Gray
5. Ian Evans
6. Stephen Ferris
7. Sam Warburton (Capt)
8. Toby Faletau
9. Mike Phillips
10. Johnny Sexton
11. George North
12. John Davies
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Tim Visser
15. Rob Kearney

16. Matthew Rees 17. Dan Cole 18. Alun-Wyn Jones 19. Dan Lydiate 20. Priestland 21. Scott Williams 22. Leigh Halfpenny

Very interesting calls there... I like the Ruddock idea. Joe Schmidt would be my personal favourite choice as coach

Gatland is being talked about as though its a done deal and his record makes him the obvious decision but my concern is its taken him a few years to get Wales playing like this (after going downhill after 2008). With the limited time the Lions tour lasts he wont have the luxury of time. If Wales perform well against Australia in the Summer and Autumn then it would be very easy to pick a 'Wales+' Lions touring party or test team, which could easily be successful but could have a major impact on the supporters feelings about the Lions concept in general.

SCW and Henry both took touring parties and made selections which favoured their countries and it seemed to impact the feeling on the tour and the final performances. Geech stepped back in and although lost the series, the reports from the players and the fans were very positive.

The ideal coach is someone who experience at international level, is regarded as a top coach and has experience of Lions tours as either a player or a coach. The only man I can think of that satisfies that has passed the reigns over to someone else.

I think the safe call would be Gatland but a lot of effort would have to made to get the players and public believing he will select and coach based on skill and form and not the home nation. The players will be severely effected if this isn't addressed a priority 1 when they first meet as a touring party.

Having the tour manager and other coaches from a mixture of nations will help. Rowntree and Edwards seem well placed to tour again, which gives England, Wales and Scotland representatives on the top table.

It doesnt work well for Wales but not in the way you're all thinking..ie. time out from Wales Ooooooh no....



in a different way....

Welsh players and supporters always whinge when they arent selected in Lions teams. eg. Gavin Henson fiasco and 2005 more generally. Henson had done nothing to warrant selection and cried like a girl about non selection.

Graham Henry 2002

Wales and then Lions Coach....


salutory tale......

got back from the tour and was undermined by sookyla la welsh lions non selectees.

Wales RU recognised the problem and dictated that no welsh coaches should again be put in this position (cop out ) and could not therefore hold selection powers for Lions...

Roll on Warren Gatland for the Lions.

different era back then,henry held his council with a number of 'senior' players,

this welsh squad is slightly more professional and gatland is more straight talking...look what happened with tom james, he whinged that he wasnt starting and hasnt had a look in since despite pkaying well for the blues,

this coupled with the fact that the majority of the welsh 15 plus a few others will tour means that the the potential for gatland to 'lose the dressing room' decreases

GavinDragon

On the contrary IMO... I think it will be more difficult for Gatland than Henry... why, because the Welsh players in 01 could hardly have had large expectations due to them coming last in the 6N that year (of the home nations)... this time they will go in as one of the largest contributing sides with many egos to consider. What happens if Faletau gets excluded for Morgan (very possible given both are playing very well at the moment), Powell for Youngs, Farrell for Priestland? 12 months is a long time in rugby.

Whilst Wales have done well this season, ENG are well up there and I find it perculiar that bloggers continue to disregard ENG players... they are the top rated team in the NH, lost out to a GS by the smallest of margins and the last 10 mins vs. Wales..... yet most non english bloggers put 1 or 2 players in their 22 at best.

How can Healy deserve a starting berth when he is now continually dominated by most props? Other looseheads have a better all round game too so you won't start him for that either.

With ENG and WAL very close in terms of quality and only 30 places on tour as well as IRE being strong in many departments I doubt any team will dominate selections (if chosen on merit alone rather the Andy Powell defence i.e. so and so is a good bloke and people find him humourous which is good for tour morale).

fa0019 wrote:

How can Healy deserve a starting berth when he is now continually dominated by most props? Other looseheads have a better all round game too so you won't start him for that either.

What games were you watching,Healy has stood up and matched the first 4 props he faced this 6 Nations.I wonder how you can make a comment like that if you've actually watched Healy more than once in the last 6 months.

England are up there and may still yet provide the majority of players to next years tours,

i agree with you re comments on healy

they are the top ranked team by IRB and definately the most improved this year,

as to the ego point you made, i dont think there are too many egos in this welsh side, furthermore i think if for example morgan got selected over faletau, faletau is professional enough to take that on the chin and use it to up his game...thats the type of culture embedded in this squad by gatland, no non-sense straight talking...this welsh squad are used to competition, just look at the likes of ryan jones, has been pulled from pillar to post this 6n but his effort levels have never dropped, and indicator of this welsh squads proffesional attitude and gatlands honest approach in action

shoulder he didnt march adam jones back at all, and against italy he wasnt playing martin castrogiovanni,

he lies third behind jenkins and corbisiero IMO

Funny because you won't find many neutrals who agree with you.The scrum was even in that game.

yes fine it was even but it wasnt 'marched back' as you put it

where as ireland were certainly 'marched back' against england so where does that leave healy?

GavinDragon wrote:yes fine it was even but it wasnt 'marched back' as you put it

Read my post again and get back to me.

my apologies, i must read thing better, yes he did match them but they still got mullered by england and got he doesnt have the work rate of getin jenkins so n what grond do you think he deserves to be above corbs or jenkins in the pecking order?

Well I disagree with you about workrate,he's a beast in the loose and at the breakdown (does have discipline issues though) and can hold up his end of the scrum against the very best.

AlsoI never commented on him being ahead of Jenkins and Corb,I took issue with a comment saying he is continually dominated by most props.I think he'll have a shot who knows what things will look like in a year and a half as injuries and form will all be different by that time.

GavinDragon wrote:where as ireland were certainly 'marched back' against england so where does that leave healy?

A player who had a bad game?

Why over Corbs or Jenkins? Because he's better?

Everyone thinks this is Gatlands to turn down. I hope not - in fact I hope they give it to Geech and that Gatland goes as "senior" coach. Worked before and can work in Australia, only this time with a series win.

Nah his face is too fat and his gob even fatter.