Clev vs Krasniqi, Albert Hall, April 28th

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Has this already been done? I'd LOVE to go to the Albert Hall but not for this. No way.

Oh how convenient! We are now narrowing it down to the first two defences. Nice way to back up your argument.

Equally I could state their first four world title fights to back up my argument.

Eubank, Sobot, Gimenez, Reid

vs

N/A, Kuziemsky, Bellew, Karpency

There's no comparison. After Calzaghe won his title in spectacular circumstances he can be given a pass for the likes of Sobot. Unfortunately Clevely can't be afforded such forgiveness due to the fact he didn't gain the title by beating the champ (not his fault) but then hasn't proven himself in any way worthy of being called a world champion in his next three fights. Calzaghe in beating a highly respected and still very dangerous Eubank proved his worth from the off, and subsequent title defences against Robin Reid and the seasoned and durable Gimenez put Cleverly's work so far to shame.

Super D Boon wrote:

There's no comparison. After Calzaghe won his title in spectacular circumstances he can be given a pass for the likes of Sobot.

Seriously D, not sure an ageing weight drained Eubank coming in at short notice counts as spectacular circumstances, impressive enough performance and good solid win for a young whippersnapper and obviously a country mile in front of how Nathan won his belt but spectacular cirumstances is laying on the hyperbole just a tad.

Super D Boon wrote:Oh how convenient! We are now narrowing it down to the first two defences. Nice way to back up your argument.

Equally I could state their first four world title fights to back up my argument.

Eubank, Sobot, Gimenez, Reid

vs

N/A, Kuziemsky, Bellew, Karpency

There's no comparison. After Calzaghe won his title in spectacular circumstances he can be given a pass for the likes of Sobot. Unfortunately Clevely can't be afforded such forgiveness due to the fact he didn't gain the title by beating the champ (not his fault) but then hasn't proven himself in any way worthy of being called a world champion in his next three fights. Calzaghe in beating a highly respected and still very dangerous Eubank proved his worth from the off, and subsequent title defences against Robin Reid and the seasoned and durable Gimenez put Cleverly's work so far to shame.

Actually no, I have another post where I listed Calzaghes first 12 defences and pointed out that only about 25% of them were actually top ten ranked opponents.

I merely used the first two defences in this instance to highlight the equivalent stage Cleverly is at in his career. Calzaghe at this stage in his career as champion had not yet even fought Reid.

Calzaghe beat Eubank (on 13 days notice) for the vacant WBO title so like Cleverly, he didnt actually beat the champion.

My basic point is that when Calzaghe became champion, Warren matched him very easily - especially at the start. He is doing the same with Cleverly at the moment. Only one of Calzaghes first 6 defences was actually against a guy that was considered in the top ten in the division.

I dont rate the likes of an ancient, never that good Giminez, Sobot, Starie etc as world class fighters anymore than I do Bellew or Kerpency.

If anything, I think the fact that Calzaghe was much better than Cleverly and had beaten a proven fighter like Eubank for his title meant its less forgiveable to match him so poorly. Cleverly is the other end whereby he needs to be matched wisely in order to develop. This means obviously fighting guys better than Karpency but also not throwing him in when he is overmached.

Actually no, I have another post where I listed Calzaghes first 12 defences and pointed out that only about 25% of them were actually top ten ranked opponents.

So what, that's not the point I'm making. You can still fight contenders worthy of fighting for a title and they not being in the top 10 overrall. Afterall, the quality of your defences is bound to be diluted with four titles to fight for.

Calzaghe beat Eubank (on 13 days notice) for the vacant WBO title so like Cleverly, he didnt actually beat the champion.


That's just another way of dismissing a very good win as an average win and it clearly shows you up as not being a fan of JC and therefore biased.


My basic point is that when Calzaghe became champion, Warren matched him very easily - especially at the start. He is doing the same with Cleverly at the moment. Only one of Calzaghes first 6 defences was actually against a guy that was considered in the top ten in the division.

Robin Reid was only his third defence. Hardly an easy start

I dont rate the likes of an ancient, never that good Giminez, Sobot, Starie etc as world class fighters anymore than I do Bellew or Kerpency.

I'm not saying they were world class but of demonstrably decent quality. There's such a thing as fighting world class opponents and fighting opponents that are worthy of a title shot. Two different things in my opinion. In Cleverly's case he doesn't seem to be fighting world class or deserving opponents.


If anything, I think the fact that Calzaghe was much better than Cleverly and had beaten a proven fighter like Eubank for his title meant its less forgiveable to match him so poorly. Cleverly is the other end whereby he needs to be matched wisely in order to develop. This means obviously fighting guys better than Karpency but also not throwing him in when he is overmached. .

The thing with Calzaghe, he proved himself deserving of being classed a world champion albeit a paper champion from the start and was frustratingly held back and given too many overmatched opponents. With Cleverly, I get the feeling he's not proved himself a worthy world champion yet and without fighting and winning against the likes of Sukhotsky (his mandatory) he can't and shouldn't be given the respect that being a world champion should bring.

alma wrote: He should be fighting his mandatory opponents.

And lets not delude ourselves about this his mandatory is not Bob Foster or Ezzard Charles he is a guy anyone calling themselves a world champion should be more than willing and capable of beating.

Point 1: Then why did you say I was conveniently ending the comparison of title reigns after two fights? I hadnt.

Point 2: No, nothing to do with it. Im hihlighting that as with Cleverly, Calzaghe did not beat the champion to win his title. Which is what you were criticising Cleverly for.

Point 3: Reid is the exception, and it took him 18 months to fight him. Relevant to Cleverly, because he hasnt been champion for 18 months. After Calzaghe scraped by Reid, Warren got nervous and we were treated to another 18 months of guys like Thornberry and Starie (not world class). This is relevant to Cleverly because I think having struggled with Bellew, Warren is relectant to match him tough.

Point 4: I dont agree. They were not world level quality and never really belonged at world level when Calzaghe fought them. I dont see how you can defend those defences but criticise Cleverlys.

Point 5: I more or less agree, but its not really what my original point is.

My point is that with Calzaghe as champion, Warren adopted a pretty safety first bleprint. This involves fighting unranked opposition mainly. Reid was probably the only exception to this in Calzaghes early years and that was a good 18 months after Calzaghe had won his title. Cleverly is a year into his title reign and has been following a similar course.

If by the end of the year Cleverly has not managed to fight a single ranked challenger then I would consider him progressing at an even slower pace than Calzaghe. But if he fights somebody like Diaconu then its more or less in line with what Warren did with Calzaghe. Cleverlys defences have been seriously poor thus far, but I think you are overestimating how tough Calzaghes were at the beginning and I also think the fact Cleverly is a less proven and inferior fighter to what Calzaghe was accounts for some of this. But the principle is more or less the same with what Warren did with both fighters at the respective stages of their title reigns would be my take.

Let's get something straight about the Calzaghe and Cleverly claims to the title. Both were due to fight the legitimate holders, that had been set up a fair bit in advance. Calzaghe was supposed to fight Steve Collins but the latter pulled out with injury, retiring completely shortly afterwards. So they put him in with Eubank instead for the vacant title and the rest tells itself.

Clev had been long due to fight Braehmer, the holder at the time. The fight was first delayed with Braehmer claiming injury and then called off completely, the German being stripped in the process. Clev was therefore supposed to fight Bellew for the vacant title but he also had to pull out for not making weight in time. It was only then, after two opponents in quick succession had ducked out, that Clev was handed the full title and Kuziemski was called up.

I don't condone the Karpency fight nor Warren's antics in trying to set up a date with Krasniqi, in fact they both make me cringe but unless Warren paid off the original opponents to duck out (which wouldn't surprise me much to be fair) then nobody can really be slated for the absolute mess of how Calzaghe and Cleverly won their belts.

rowley wrote:

alma wrote: He should be fighting his mandatory opponents.

And lets not delude ourselves about this his mandatory is not Bob Foster or Ezzard Charles he is a guy anyone calling themselves a world champion should be more than willing and capable of beating.

Precisely, it seems we can blather on and on about the merit of Calzaghe's opponents over Cleverly's at a similar stage in their careers. I however do feel Calzaghe proved himself more earlier on but there we are. As much as people scoff over Calzaghe beating the likes of Veit twice and Mger Mckiryan (or whatever) these were nevertheless his mandatories at the time of fighting them and they needed to be taken care of.

Cleverly meanwhile seems to be ducking his mandatory Sukhotsky, which makes him a bit of a joke at the moment and not deserving of the title "world champion".

Paper champion, poor promoter, poor opponents. This will go on for a few years with Cleverly. Talk of him fighting any name fighter in the forseeable future is just hot air from Warren promotions.

Seems like its confirmed, boxnation have it on their schedule. Boring fight and really not a good test to warm up for the potential winner of BHop vs Dawson.

Either of those will make mincemeat out of Cleverly. He needs to step up and face a challenge.

Comparing Cleverley with Calzaghe seems a little unfair.

Why not take the opportunity to use Naz as Brooks yardstick and compare them prior to coming to the conclusion Brook is a bum for not being champion as yet?

Other than the fact they are both Welsh boxers promoted by the same man there is very little to compare them. Different weights, skillsets etc.

Cleverley has had some easy fights and we should expect more from a champion plain and simple. Would rather if he is still learning they bin the belt until he is ready to compete at that level but once he has the title he has more money making potential and that is where a promoter takes over.

This will hurt Cleverlys fanbase I feel.

I seen a page on facebook, (In work so can't access it) that was called "Boycott Cleverly at the RAH" honestly.

It has 460 odd likes. That too me is a lot of people to acknowledge that he is fighting trash. He doesn't have the biggest fanbase already and the more he ducks mandatories, the more he becomes a bigger joke than he already is.

There is also a facebook group called something like "I won't buy another PPV until Manny and Floyd fight" that has a good number more than 460 members but has not yet managed to stop either guy doing nigh on 1.5m buys every time they lace them up.

But in fairs Rowley they have millions of fans worldwide.

Cleverlywas fighting on undercards up till about 5 fights ago. 460 odd fans is a very big percentage of his fans

Still learning 7 years later as a pro and hasn't faced world class opposition plus has looked out of sorts against the most mediocre of opposition.

He deserves all the stick he gets.

Have there been any developments re the WBO not sanctioning the fight?

Union, the last I read, Warren was to go to a meeting to appeal their decision to duck the mandatory.