Munster v Leinster

First topic message reminder :

Here we go again.

Travelling in hope but not expectation. Would be great to win this one, but I would settle for a LBP and no (more) injuries.

Apparently there is hope on Mike Ross and Jamie Hagan. No word on White. They usually release an injury update on Mondays at lunchtime.

Don't fancy facing DuPreeyahhh and Botha with Jack McGrath at th. It was a credit to him as a first year LOOSE head prop that he did not get injured in those scrums against some serious experience and power

I guess some players look good in the lessser competition against lesser opponents (Sexton, Heaslip are good examples of that). Darcy plays the same way for Leinster as he does for Ireland (poorly).

Schmidt lost his last game at home with a poor game plan. Lets see how he gets on over time in that he now has to develop his own team and not just follow on Cheikas coat tails. Although given the team he has selected for this weekend it doesnt look promising.

Gibson wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Then again, the likes of D'Arcy, Heaslip etc who don't perform for Ireland, play pretty damn well for Leinster. I think players generally perform better when there is a good game-plan they can follow, and one that suits the playing style of the team..

True Rory. I wonder why?

Couldn't be the coach.. the step up to international rugby is just so different apparently. It is like changing sports almost.

Its simple. It will be O Malley for BOD and McFadden for Dorce. Macken may get a decent shot at it too in the future.

Our cup...it overflowethetheth.

That, can bring its' own selection problems...

I can deal with em.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Then again, the likes of D'Arcy, Heaslip etc who don't perform for Ireland, play pretty damn well for Leinster. I think players generally perform better when there is a good game-plan they can follow, and one that suits the playing style of the team..

True Rory. I wonder why?

Couldn't be the coach.. the step up to international rugby is just so different apparently. It is like changing sports almost.

Oh roysh. I was just wondering like.

HEC is a lesser competition to the 6 nations? Very debatable..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:HEC is a lesser competition to the 6 nations? Very debatable..

The HC knockouts are every bit as intense and competitive as the 6-N. Sometimes - even more so. The French & English know this only too well. Besides, the teams are choc full of World Class internationals from all over.

DOD wrote:I guess some players look good in the lessser competition against lesser opponents (Sexton, Heaslip are good examples of that). Darcy plays the same way for Leinster as he does for Ireland (poorly).

Schmidt lost his last game at home with a poor game plan. Lets see how he gets on over time in that he now has to develop his own team and not just follow on Cheikas coat tails. Although given the team he has selected for this weekend it doesnt look promising.

He lost to third placed Ospreys at home...whilst introducing players who were longterm absentees, and a stranger.

He didn't lose to last placed Aironi though.

You're old enough DOD to know when teams coast...Munster yawned against Aironi, Leinster couldn't coast to the same extent against Ospreys but were still far short of their familiar bite.

Saturday should be a whole different game for both sides.

DOD wrote:I guess some players look good in the lessser competition against lesser opponents (Sexton, Heaslip are good examples of that). Darcy plays the same way for Leinster as he does for Ireland (poorly).

Schmidt lost his last game at home with a poor game plan. Lets see how he gets on over time in that he now has to develop his own team and not just follow on Cheikas coat tails. Although given the team he has selected for this weekend it doesnt look promising.

Man DOD yer a riot. Schmidt has 2 teams developed since he arrived. Has used nearly all his academy in the process. As has McGahan - in fairness. Cheika stymied our growth in the end. Like Deccie, he didnt trust in youth early enough. Kidney lives on injuries to make his choices for him.

McGahan & Schmidt have been brilliantly PRO-active. Deccie thinks that's an energy-drink.

Gibson wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:HEC is a lesser competition to the 6 nations? Very debatable..

The HC knockouts are every bit as intense and competitive as the 6-N. Sometimes - even more so. The French & English know this only too well. Besides, the teams are choc full of World Class internationals from all over.

Correct Gibbo. The myth that Scotland v Italy or even Ireland v Scotland is higher standard and more intense than HC knockout games is insulting to the rugby played in HC knockouts. Those who continually perpetuate the myth do so knowingly. 6N should be a higher standard - its very weakness is that it more often than not isn't.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Then again, the likes of D'Arcy, Heaslip etc who don't perform for Ireland, play pretty damn well for Leinster. I think players generally perform better when there is a good game-plan they can follow, and one that suits the playing style of the team..

True Rory. I wonder why?

Couldn't be the coach.. the step up to international rugby is just so different apparently. It is like changing sports almost.

The ball always beats the man Rory, the ball always beats the man........

Fly..just to let you know in case you missed it we did beat Scotland and Italy comfortably in the 6ns....

Also I agree that O'Malley, D Kearney, Macken etc are good players and will come on but given they arent first choice for Leinster its patently silly to say they should be given a shot with Ireland.

DOD wrote:Fly..just to let you know in case you missed it we did beat Scotland and Italy comfortably in the 6ns....

DOD, and just because you did miss it.............. those games happen every year...and 'comfortable' isn't the word I'd use every year.

Besides, I thought you said the players Kidney has to rely on couldn't change a light bulb at International (Blessin' of God be upon it!) level?

DOD,
Deccie has played all his cards. All of them with the present bunch. He must take the above-mentioned players - who have played a lot of PRO12 games - to NZ. If he doesnt...

All he has to do is look at Wales & England. Take a few chances (scary scary) and if he gets but 1 or two of them to step up, I would personally applaud the man.

Zebo, D. Kearney, Jones (he will anyway), Madigan, O Malley and Toner - to mention a few, MUST travel. Otherwise, its just another wasted exercise. Like the 6-N and the past 3 years.

DOD wrote:Also I agree that O'Malley, D Kearney, Macken etc are good players and will come on but given they arent first choice for Leinster its patently silly to say they should be given a shot with Ireland.

But DOC should?

Anyway I'm going for a Leinster win here. Don't think munster will have enough without POC and Ryan. Also from my perspective it brings munster back into the mix and pushes Leinster out into safety again.

DOD wrote:Also I agree that O'Malley, D Kearney, Macken etc are good players and will come on but given they arent first choice for Leinster its patently silly to say they should be given a shot with Ireland.

Why then did DoC start for Ireland depite not being first choice

I'll tell you the answer since I doubt you'll be able to figure it yourself.It's because Kidney is his own man and can make his own decisions,he isn't handcuffed by the provinces and if he wanted toplay McFadden at 12 he could.However he's becoming more conservative by the day and is unfortunately turning into Steady Eddie mark 2.The only difference between them is Eddie screwed up World Cups where Kidney is now screwing up 6 Nations.

DOD wrote:I guess some players look good in the lessser competition against lesser opponents (Sexton, Heaslip are good examples of that). Darcy plays the same way for Leinster as he does for Ireland (poorly).

Schmidt lost his last game at home with a poor game plan. Lets see how he gets on over time in that he now has to develop his own team and not just follow on Cheikas coat tails. Although given the team he has selected for this weekend it doesnt look promising.

I hope the irony of Kidneys situation is not lost on you.He took over and had a great first year but has utterly failed to develop his own team.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:Also I agree that O'Malley, D Kearney, Macken etc are good players and will come on but given they arent first choice for Leinster its patently silly to say they should be given a shot with Ireland.

Why then did DoC start for Ireland depite not being first choice

Because he has an IRFU central contract and Ryan, Tuohy, Toner and the other half dozen better 2nd rows in the country don't thats why.

McGahan can clearly see that Ryan is the superior player these days but he doesn't have one hand tied behind his back by the IRFU blazers the way Deccie and Smal do.

Gibson wrote:

DOD wrote:I guess some players look good in the lessser competition against lesser opponents (Sexton, Heaslip are good examples of that). Darcy plays the same way for Leinster as he does for Ireland (poorly).

Schmidt lost his last game at home with a poor game plan. Lets see how he gets on over time in that he now has to develop his own team and not just follow on Cheikas coat tails. Although given the team he has selected for this weekend it doesnt look promising.

Man DOD yer a riot. Schmidt has 2 teams developed since he arrived. Has used nearly all his academy in the process. As has McGahan - in fairness. Cheika stymied our growth in the end. Like Deccie, he didnt trust in youth early enough. Kidney lives on injuries to make his choices for him.

McGahan & Schmidt have been brilliantly PRO-active. Deccie thinks that's an energy-drink.

Yeah you are right. I mean schmidt is clearly trusting in the yute for tomorrows game...the warm up OAPs game with BOD and Brad should be interesting....

roddersm wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:Also I agree that O'Malley, D Kearney, Macken etc are good players and will come on but given they arent first choice for Leinster its patently silly to say they should be given a shot with Ireland.

Why then did DoC start for Ireland depite not being first choice

Because he has an IRFU central contract and Ryan, Tuohy, Toner and the other half dozen better 2nd rows in the country don't thats why.

McGahan can clearly see that Ryan is the superior player these days but he doesn't have one hand tied behind his back by the IRFU blazers the way Deccie and Smal do.

Rodders is right in that Central contracts are a problematic structure in an age when many more players than will ever qualify for the contracts are putting up their hands for inclusion in the national side.

I don't know the cost effective solution to holding onto players of considered value (O'Connell, O'Driscoll, O'Gara etc).....

.....or how you even select those players now (given that more rotation is happing in all sides, and younger players are contributing to the season ending success of their Provinces as much as the big boys who are dragged out in bits and pieces to rubber-stamp the gains).....

.....or how you ensure the centrally contracted players will not receive preferential treatment if their value decreases in the middle of a contract period.

I don't know the solution but I do know that the player base has changed sufficiently in a positive way in the last 10 years to say that the present system used to identify and retain quality is a touch archaic.

roddersm wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:Also I agree that O'Malley, D Kearney, Macken etc are good players and will come on but given they arent first choice for Leinster its patently silly to say they should be given a shot with Ireland.

Why then did DoC start for Ireland depite not being first choice

Because he has an IRFU central contract and Ryan, Tuohy, Toner and the other half dozen better 2nd rows in the country don't thats why.

McGahan can clearly see that Ryan is the superior player these days but he doesn't have one hand tied behind his back by the IRFU blazers the way Deccie and Smal do.

DOC has more gametime for Munster this season than D Ryan. Up in Leinster they call it rotation

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:Also I agree that O'Malley, D Kearney, Macken etc are good players and will come on but given they arent first choice for Leinster its patently silly to say they should be given a shot with Ireland.

Why then did DoC start for Ireland depite not being first choice

Because he has an IRFU central contract and Ryan, Tuohy, Toner and the other half dozen better 2nd rows in the country don't thats why.

McGahan can clearly see that Ryan is the superior player these days but he doesn't have one hand tied behind his back by the IRFU blazers the way Deccie and Smal do.

DOC has more gametime for Munster this season than D Ryan. Up in Leinster they call it rotation

Why can't you come out and make a straight statement,you're like a politician everything you say is ambiguous so you can weasel out of it when you're (frequently) shown to be spouting rubbish.Are you trying to say that DoC is actually 1st choice ahead of Ryan.

Saying that DOC has more gametime than Ryan for Munster is a statement as far as I'm concerned

Gametime.

POC: 749 mins (9+1)
DOC: 735 mins (7+6)
D Ryan: 671 mins (10+1)

Is that clear enough for you?

Sin é wrote:Saying that DOC has more gametime than Ryan for Munster is a statement as far as I'm concerned

Gametime.

POC: 749 mins (9+1)
DOC: 735 mins (7+6)
D Ryan: 671 mins (10+1)

Is that clear enough for you?

All the more reason that Ryan should have been picked ahead of him. After such a good season so far surely Ryan starting with doc coming off the bench was needed for ireland.

Sin é wrote:Saying that DOC has more gametime than Ryan for Munster is a statement as far as I'm concerned

Gametime.

POC: 749 mins (9+1)
DOC: 735 mins (7+6)
D Ryan: 671 mins (10+1)

Is that clear enough for you?

Wow I'm beginning to lose respect for you,I used to think you were an intelligent poster who just had different views to mine but lately your posts are lacking any sign of that.
Do you really think that makin a general statement like that is a reasonable response to the posts you had quoted,it's ambiguous what point you are trying to make.You say that DoC has more gametime than Ryan but don't explain why you brought that little stat up.Why are we supposed to care?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:Saying that DOC has more gametime than Ryan for Munster is a statement as far as I'm concerned

Gametime.

POC: 749 mins (9+1)
DOC: 735 mins (7+6)
D Ryan: 671 mins (10+1)

Is that clear enough for you?

Wow I'm beginning to lose respect for you,I used to think you were an intelligent poster who just had different views to mine but lately your posts are lacking any sign of that.
Do you really think that makin a general statement like that is a reasonable response to the posts you had quoted,it's ambiguous what point you are trying to make.You say that DoC has more gametime than Ryan but don't explain why you brought that little stat up.Why are we supposed to care?

Never got the impression you had any respect for me, my opinion or my intelligence

I think Stand got the point I was making

Care to explain it to me?

Standulstermen wrote:

Sin é wrote:Saying that DOC has more gametime than Ryan for Munster is a statement as far as I'm concerned

Gametime.
POC: 749 mins (9+1)
DOC: 735 mins (7+6)
D Ryan: 671 mins (10+1)

Is that clear enough for you?

All the more reason that Ryan should have been picked ahead of him. After such a good season so far surely Ryan starting with doc coming off the bench was needed for ireland.

Its a horses for courses pick from what I can see, but I don't there being much in it between Ryan & DOC. POC is miles ahead of all of them.

Wow this is hard work,would you say that McFAdden is then 1st choice ahead of D'Arcy since he has had noticeably more gametime?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Care to explain it to me?

Sorry, from your post I understood you don't care what I post as you think I'm thick so I wasn't going to waste my time.

What I meant about the statement is that Leinster rotate players like Reddan/Boss, Healy/VDM and no one really can state clearly who is first choice. You'll probably find that Boss starts away from home a bit more and that Healy will be used in a game which needs more getting around the pitch than scrummaging.

Similar situation to DOC & Ryan. We're not too sure who is first choice in Munster.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Care to explain it to me?

Sorry, from your post I understood you don't care what I post as you think I'm thick so I wasn't going to waste my time.

What I meant about the statement is that Leinster rotate players like Reddan/Boss, Healy/VDM and no one really can state clearly who is first choice. You'll probably find that Boss starts away from home a bit more and that Healy will be used in a game which needs more getting around the pitch than scrummaging.

Similar situation to DOC & Ryan. We're not too sure who is first choice in Munster.

Well most people would use the big games to judge and Ryan starts them all whereas DoC only comes in when there's an injury problem.

Just to pop in here in the middle. In regards to DOC and Ryan, neither of them are considerded first or second choice. They are both selected as per the conditions and/or game plan.

That doesn't seem accurate as a large proportion of Doc's gametime has been from the bench,to me that clearly indicates he's not 1st choice anymore.

Indeed Sore, I think he was just making the point that while DOC isn't starting as many games, he is getting alot of time on the field, so McGahan clearly has faith in his abilities off the bench. Essentially he trusts him. And over the 6 rounds of the HC, DOC was excellent off the bench, an impact sub in every sense and I think we'd all agree with you that had Kidney gone with McGahan's regime it would have worked out well.

However, if we all watched the 5 matches over again, I don't think we'd see glaring weaknesses or underperformance from DOC. Certainly not in remotely the same context as D'Arcy or TOL., or unfortunately for Court, his set piece play versus England.

So while it was a curious selection, DOC brought useful poo to the pary, unlike some other players that have been well documented.

Well if you look at the minutes he has played when coming off the bench then i would suggest that be more rotation than 1st or 2nd choice.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Care to explain it to me?

Sorry, from your post I understood you don't care what I post as you think I'm thick so I wasn't going to waste my time.

What I meant about the statement is that Leinster rotate players like Reddan/Boss, Healy/VDM and no one really can state clearly who is first choice. You'll probably find that Boss starts away from home a bit more and that Healy will be used in a game which needs more getting around the pitch than scrummaging.

Similar situation to DOC & Ryan. We're not too sure who is first choice in Munster.

Well most people would use the big games to judge and Ryan starts them all whereas DoC only comes in when there's an injury problem.

DOC started 2 less games than POC and 3 less than Ryan so far this season.

It will surprise you no doubt to find out that Boss has been starting a lot more games for Leinster than Reddan has:

Boss (games) 11 starts + 6 sub appearances. 830 mins.
Reddan (games) 7 starts + 5 sub appearances. 590 mins.

Now how come Boss's preferred by Kidney? (imo, I'd say he rates Conor Murray more highly and Reddan offers something different to Murray).

debaters1 wrote:Indeed Sore, I think he was just making the point that while DOC isn't starting as many games, he is getting alot of time on the field, so McGahan clearly has faith in his abilities off the bench. Essentially he trusts him. And over the 6 rounds of the HC, DOC was excellent off the bench, an impact sub in every sense and I think we'd all agree with you that had Kidney gone with McGahan's regime it would have worked out well.

However, if we all watched the 5 matches over again, I don't think we'd see glaring weaknesses or underperformance from DOC. Certainly not in remotely the same context as D'Arcy or TOL., or unfortunately for Court, his set piece play versus England.

So while it was a curious selection, DOC brought useful poo to the pary, unlike some other players that have been well documented.

I agree with the bolded part,I've even said on another thread that I think DoC still has something to offer Ireland just not as a starter.

However I think his situation sums up Kidneys reign as Ireland coach,you shouldn't have to be playing badly to lose your place on the Ireland team it should be enough that another player is playing better than you.Unfortunately it takes multiple terrible performances like ToL and Luke Fitz produced pre WC before a player is in danger of losing his place.

Sin é wrote:


DOC started 2 less games than POC and 3 less than Ryan so far this season.

It will surprise you no doubt to find out that Boss has been starting a lot more games for Leinster than Reddan has:

Boss (games) 11 starts + 6 sub appearances. 830 mins.
Reddan (games) 7 starts + 5 sub appearances. 590 mins.

Now how come Boss's preferred by Kidney? (imo, I'd say he rates Conor Murray more highly and Reddan offers something different to Murray).

Why would that surprise me I support Leinster so I know who has been playing,I also know that when the big games come around Reddan is the 1st choice just like Ryan is for Munster.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:


Why would that surprise me I support Leinster so I know who has been playing,I also know that when the big games come around Reddan is the 1st choice just like Ryan is for Munster.

Really, Boss started 3 Heineken cup games this season (as did Reddan).

Boss also started the last Leinster v. Munster game in the Aviva (Reddan got 22 mins).

ASLS, may i ask what the fascination is with first or second choice is?

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:


Why would that surprise me I support Leinster so I know who has been playing,I also know that when the big games come around Reddan is the 1st choice just like Ryan is for Munster.

Really, Boss started 3 Heineken cup games this season (as did Reddan).

Boss also started the last Leinster v. Munster game in the Aviva (Reddan got 22 mins).

True but we still know that when it comes to the big games Schmidt will go with Reddan anything else would be a surprise.It's the same with Ryan.

You can't credibly be trying to claim that McGahan is employing the same rotation policy that Schmidt does when Munster have had such an injury crisis this year that McGahan has been forced to play whoever has been ledt standing.

eirebilly wrote:ASLS, may i ask what the fascination is with first or second choice is?

It's just to question why Kidney is forgiven for picking D'Arcy because he's first choice for Leinster (despite having significantly less ametime than McFadden,Darcy has 659 mins to McFaddens 997) yet isn't questioned about picking Munsters 3rd choice lock ahead of their 2nd choice.

Oh, its a Leinster Munster thing. I am not touching that.

eirebilly wrote:Oh, its a Leinster Munster thing. I am not touching that.

No it's a Kidney thing

Kidney has reacted to the poor results of the last few years by going into his shell and becoming extremely conservative. Both his selections and his tactics were incredibly conservative in the last 6 Nations. Was it just 18 different players who started a 6 Nations match? And the three changes only occurred when they were enforced by injury. That's a shocking lack of faith in the players outside the 1st 15 and a really poor use of a squad.

eirebilly wrote:Oh, its a Leinster Munster thing. I am not touching that.

Oh and you've already touched it Billy,this is from this thread https://www.606v2.com/t26331p150-ireland-coaching-position-open-poll-and-discussion#1071840

eirebilly wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

It should also be said that D'Arcy is preferred to McFadden by Joe Schmidt at Leinster and when he does start for Leinster, its rarely at inside centre.

In McFadden Hcup starts this year, 3 have been at 13, 1 at 12 and 1 on the wing.

Ryan is preferred at lock to DoC by Munster yet Kidney chose to ignore that so why can't he do the same for McFadden

"

Yep, thats a very valid point.

Would you like a shovel ASLS....

I'd need to get rid of all the cowpat Sin is leaving on here.

Here's an idea why don't you try to tell me what you disagree with and I'll show you why you're wrong yet again.

Good luck tomorrow lads! Should be epic!

Fed up of watching the Blues

Figured I might aswell start supporting Leinster.