About v2Mayweather- best ever?
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Mayweather- best ever?
by bloodygloves Thu 12 Apr 2012, 7:56 pm
http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/7780088/floyd-mayweather-jr-measures-boxing-greats
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Sugar Floyd Louis Thu 12 Apr 2012, 8:13 pm
Skill wise for me undoubtedly, I'd even go as far as saying the purest ever too. Just a shame about the resume though (not having Pacquiao on it).
(please let's not discuss Pacquiao and whose to blame bla bla bla, it's tedious. Plus I had an article hijacked earlier it's not nice
)
(please let's not discuss Pacquiao and whose to blame bla bla bla, it's tedious. Plus I had an article hijacked earlier it's not nice
)
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by zx1234 Thu 12 Apr 2012, 8:19 pm
would be interested in seeing similar stats for roy jones and whitaker
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by azania Thu 12 Apr 2012, 8:20 pm
I'd like to see Floyd against other defensive masters like Pernell of Benitez. Probably a boring and cagey fight but just to test compubox it would be intere4sting. I'd take Hearns to flatten him and SRL to outwork him.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by manos de piedra Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:01 pm
I dont really think its a true test of whether or not hes the greatest of all time. For one, the competition faced is too variable. Im not sure the numbers would be as impressive if he was facing Beneitz, Hearns, Duran as opposed to Ortiz, Mosley, Hatton. Interesting reading though.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:09 pm
Based on natural ability he could very well be. However, we can't just judge him on that. Looking at his record you can see why Sugar ray Leonard deserves to be table dance him. Mayweather is clinical, but he may rue some opposition choices in the past.
If he fought cotto in 2008, pacquiao in 2009 et he would be looked upon more favourably. Even margarito, tsyzu (at 140lbs in about 2003), Paul Williams (2007). he has really good fighters on his CV but not enough. If he beat Cotto by KO, beats Martinez and another young fighter like khan, Alvarez or brook etc in 2013 then he could just slip into p4p top 10 of all time
But bloody hell, 16% success rate of hitting him, that's a credit to the man and is an achievement not even Whitaker can beat
If he fought cotto in 2008, pacquiao in 2009 et he would be looked upon more favourably. Even margarito, tsyzu (at 140lbs in about 2003), Paul Williams (2007). he has really good fighters on his CV but not enough. If he beat Cotto by KO, beats Martinez and another young fighter like khan, Alvarez or brook etc in 2013 then he could just slip into p4p top 10 of all time
But bloody hell, 16% success rate of hitting him, that's a credit to the man and is an achievement not even Whitaker can beat
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Imperial Ghosty Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:30 pm
I think he's a lot closer to Leonard in the all time stakes than people suggest, it's very true he hasn't got the wins to compare to Hearns, Hagler, Duran and Benitez but he has greater longevity against very good opposition which is a plus for him.
Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Marquez, Judah, Mosley and De La Hoya with an expected win over Cotto to come isn't a shabby list of elite wins, it could be better but then again so could every fighters resume. In time to come his defensive brilliance combined with a much under rated offence could see him sky rocket up the all time lists.
Assuming he doesn't face Pacquiao after all future wins over Cotto, Martinez and Alvarez would see him enter my top five quite comfortably usurping the likes of Duran, Tunney and the two Leonards.
Hernandez, Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Marquez, Judah, Mosley and De La Hoya with an expected win over Cotto to come isn't a shabby list of elite wins, it could be better but then again so could every fighters resume. In time to come his defensive brilliance combined with a much under rated offence could see him sky rocket up the all time lists.
Assuming he doesn't face Pacquiao after all future wins over Cotto, Martinez and Alvarez would see him enter my top five quite comfortably usurping the likes of Duran, Tunney and the two Leonards.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by rycoys Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:32 pm
i think the guy is a genius boxing skill at its best , hit without getting hit is the art and he does this better than any other fighter in the history of boxing imo , would love him to get pac man so he finally gets the defining night he deserves ,
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:35 pm
Ghosty, I agree with what you said but Armstrong should definitely be in your top 5, Muhammad Ali should be pipped ahead of floyd also
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Imperial Ghosty Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:38 pm
Would probably be Robinson, Greb, Charles, Armstrong and Mayweather with Ali, Duran and Fitzsimmons missing out.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by 88Chris05 Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:59 pm
I still think he needs Pacquiao for that top ten spot. Yes, interest in the fight has dropped from a couple of years back. Yes, Cotto is a decent fight, and Alvarez and / or Martinez would be excellent wins, too. But they're not Pacquiao, who is unquestionably his nearest rival to pound for pound supremacy not only right now, but for the era as a whole. To some, beating the aforementioned would make up for him bypassing the Pacquiao fight, but to me it wouldn't.
In terms of his pure, God-given ability, he's the equal of just about anyone in history, or at least anyone I've seen. You probably couldn't make him anything less than 50:50 in a head to head with anyone who has ever boxed between Super-Featherweight and Light-Welterweight, and even if you did now and then, it would surely only be for the likes of Duran, Whitaker and Benny Leonard.
Perhaps a little cautious in his matchmaking at times, and if we're being pedantic he maybe doesn't have the wins which jump off the page and grab you by the scruff of the neck which a Ray Robinson, a Ray Leonard or an Ezzard Charles had. But his sheer dominance over his foes is incredible; like Roy Jones before him, Floyd has had a decade and more during which he's hardly lost a round, never mind come close to losing a fight.
In terms of his pure, God-given ability, he's the equal of just about anyone in history, or at least anyone I've seen. You probably couldn't make him anything less than 50:50 in a head to head with anyone who has ever boxed between Super-Featherweight and Light-Welterweight, and even if you did now and then, it would surely only be for the likes of Duran, Whitaker and Benny Leonard.
Perhaps a little cautious in his matchmaking at times, and if we're being pedantic he maybe doesn't have the wins which jump off the page and grab you by the scruff of the neck which a Ray Robinson, a Ray Leonard or an Ezzard Charles had. But his sheer dominance over his foes is incredible; like Roy Jones before him, Floyd has had a decade and more during which he's hardly lost a round, never mind come close to losing a fight.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by azania Thu 12 Apr 2012, 10:10 pm
Very controversial ghosty. None of Floyd's opposition can be considered ATG's at their weights (with the exception of Oscar). For me SRL is a nailed on top 5. Ali, Robbo, Armstrong, SRL, Louis are my top 5.
Not fighting Paq wont harm floyd that much imo. That he hardly looks like losing a second of any fight makes him a great fighter. One who I would place in the top 15 for sure.
Not fighting Paq wont harm floyd that much imo. That he hardly looks like losing a second of any fight makes him a great fighter. One who I would place in the top 15 for sure.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Soldier_Of_Fortune Thu 12 Apr 2012, 10:29 pm
88Chris05 wrote:I still think he needs Pacquiao for that top ten spot. Yes, interest in the fight has dropped from a couple of years back. Yes, Cotto is a decent fight, and Alvarez and / or Martinez would be excellent wins, too. But they're not Pacquiao, who is unquestionably his nearest rival to pound for pound supremacy not only right now, but for the era as a whole. To some, beating the aforementioned would make up for him bypassing the Pacquiao fight, but to me it wouldn't.
In terms of his pure, God-given ability, he's the equal of just about anyone in history, or at least anyone I've seen. You probably couldn't make him anything less than 50:50 in a head to head with anyone who has ever boxed between Super-Featherweight and Light-Welterweight, and even if you did now and then, it would surely only be for the likes of Duran, Whitaker and Benny Leonard.
U
Perhaps a little cautious in his matchmaking at times, and if we're being pedantic he maybe doesn't have the wins which jump off the page and grab you by the scruff of the neck which a Ray Robinson, a Ray Leonard or an Ezzard Charles had. But his sheer dominance over his foes is incredible; like Roy Jones before him, Floyd has had a decade and more during which he's hardly lost a round, never mind come close to losing a fight.
If were going to be pedantic, I had Castillo winning the first fight
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Imperial Ghosty Thu 12 Apr 2012, 10:41 pm
Mosley was at some point an all time great welterweight although the version he faced was far removed from that but Hernandez and Corrales would feature fairly highly at super featherweight. His win over Hernandez for me is his best and surpasses the Corrales one, he was a superb fighter who was a premier 130lber for almost a decade. Think that top five is a bit of a stretch for Leonard considering his overall record doesn't really stack up well beyond those quartet of wins.
Agree Chris that he doesn't have many eye catching wins but feel he's on the brink of something special if he's serious about facing Martinez, a legitimate unbeaten 6 weight world champion being the consensus number one in 5 of them would be incredible. I hope it happens but have massive doubts it will.
Agree Chris that he doesn't have many eye catching wins but feel he's on the brink of something special if he's serious about facing Martinez, a legitimate unbeaten 6 weight world champion being the consensus number one in 5 of them would be incredible. I hope it happens but have massive doubts it will.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by azania Thu 12 Apr 2012, 11:05 pm
Those quartet of wins were against P4P all time greats. Quality over quantity in this case.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Imperial Ghosty Thu 12 Apr 2012, 11:38 pm
A host of fighters have quartets or more of wins over all time greats at which point quantity does become an issue, if we confine things to four fights then Leonard may come out on top but there's more to it than that.
Tunney for instance has Dempsey, Greb, Loughran and Carpentier more than comparable to Leonards four in my opinion but has greater longevity and more breadth to his work.
Tunney for instance has Dempsey, Greb, Loughran and Carpentier more than comparable to Leonards four in my opinion but has greater longevity and more breadth to his work.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn Thu 12 Apr 2012, 11:51 pm
Sugar Floyd Louis wrote:Skill wise for me undoubtedly, I'd even go as far as saying the purest ever too. Just a shame about the resume though (not having Pacquiao on it).
(please let's not discuss Pacquiao and whose to blame bla bla bla, it's tedious. Plus I had an article hijacked earlier it's not nice
Yeah mate, it was a bit crazy watchin your thread get hijacked earlier but we got it back on track in the end. ;-)
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by WelshDevilRob Fri 13 Apr 2012, 1:11 am
The best ever? No and I can't really see what he can do to become the best ever. He spent far too long taking easier fights while greater challenges passed him by.
He undoubtedly is a Great fighter and a Hall of Famer but to rate him as the best of all-time is going way too far.
I personally rate Sugar Ray Leonard and Roy Jones Jnr above him both on record and ability.
He undoubtedly is a Great fighter and a Hall of Famer but to rate him as the best of all-time is going way too far.
I personally rate Sugar Ray Leonard and Roy Jones Jnr above him both on record and ability.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by horizontalhero Fri 13 Apr 2012, 2:04 am
azania wrote:I'd like to see Floyd against other defensive masters like Pernell of Benitez. Probably a boring and cagey fight but just to test compubox it would be intere4sting. I'd take Hearns to flatten him and SRL to outwork him.
I'm becoming less sure that Hearns flattens him- you have to hit to flatten him, and landing clean blows on him is hard, plus when he is hit he hasn't displayed any signs that his chin less than tough. Alot of smart money said he would flatten Leonard, and that never happened. I'm not saying that Hearns couldn't KO him, but I'm not sure that he would.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by 88Chris05 Fri 13 Apr 2012, 9:14 am
From the outset, Floyd should really have little to no chance against Hearns in a head to head match up. Here's a man who started his career at 130 lb and who, even at thirty-five, makes Welterweight without even a hint of struggle. On the flip side, he'd be against a man with five to six inches on him in both the height and reach department, who was big and good enough to have genuine success as a Light-Heavyweight, and who also carried his legendary punch, at the very least, up to 160 lb.
It's a testament to Mayweather's greatness that we're even giving him a slither of hope. I don't see him beating Hearns at Welterweight, personally, but it would be fascinating to have seen it.
It's a testament to Mayweather's greatness that we're even giving him a slither of hope. I don't see him beating Hearns at Welterweight, personally, but it would be fascinating to have seen it.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake Fri 13 Apr 2012, 9:20 am
Perversely, the problem with Mayweather is that he's too good. He's never looked in real trouble and he's never overcame any real problems in the ring. Yes, he's fought great fighters, but if I think about the list of ATGs, they all had to overcome adversity at some point, and I think that helps elevate their status.
With Floyd, because he's so consistent and so good, it almost goes against him. He's had some great fights against some great fighters, but for me they've all been fairly one sided, or at least ended up that way by the end. He's never had a "You're blowing it son" or a Rumble In The Jungle moment, where we've seen him overcome the odds or turn the tide that was going against him in a fight.
As good as his stats are, he needs a career defining fight, and at the moment that fight is Manny. That's not to say Manny will definitely cause him problems, but given the fact they they're the top 2 P4P fighters, he needs that fight on his resume in the absence of any other career defining moment. (IMHO Manny doesn't need to fight Floyd to enhance his legacy)
With Floyd, because he's so consistent and so good, it almost goes against him. He's had some great fights against some great fighters, but for me they've all been fairly one sided, or at least ended up that way by the end. He's never had a "You're blowing it son" or a Rumble In The Jungle moment, where we've seen him overcome the odds or turn the tide that was going against him in a fight.
As good as his stats are, he needs a career defining fight, and at the moment that fight is Manny. That's not to say Manny will definitely cause him problems, but given the fact they they're the top 2 P4P fighters, he needs that fight on his resume in the absence of any other career defining moment. (IMHO Manny doesn't need to fight Floyd to enhance his legacy)
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by manos de piedra Fri 13 Apr 2012, 11:17 am
He lacks that elite level win for me that would demand a top ten spot. He has a lot of good and very good wins but not sure he has a genuine great win.
I also think with regard weight class, at what point do you consider Mayweather a "natural" welterweight? Sometimes multi weight fighters are rigidly categorised into one "natural" weight class with all others being their non preffered. But Mayweather has probably spent as long at welterweight than he has any other weight. Its been a natural evolution through the weight classes and hes has aged with three disticnt weight classes (possibly soon to be four) that he has distinguished himself in.
I also think with regard weight class, at what point do you consider Mayweather a "natural" welterweight? Sometimes multi weight fighters are rigidly categorised into one "natural" weight class with all others being their non preffered. But Mayweather has probably spent as long at welterweight than he has any other weight. Its been a natural evolution through the weight classes and hes has aged with three disticnt weight classes (possibly soon to be four) that he has distinguished himself in.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 13 Apr 2012, 12:01 pm
Eleven years + at the top........Lot's of titles.......lot's of p4pers on his record...
Dead on top 10 but not the best...
Anyone who disagrees is either rose-tinted or doesn't know anything about Boxing...
end of..
Dead on top 10 but not the best...
Anyone who disagrees is either rose-tinted or doesn't know anything about Boxing...
end of..
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by 88Chris05 Fri 13 Apr 2012, 12:10 pm
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Dead on top 10 but not the best...
Anyone who disagrees is either rose-tinted or doesn't know anything about Boxing...
end of..
Sounding very much like Uncle Roger there Truss, ironically enough!
"Mos' people don't know sheeey 'bout baxin'!"
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Sugar Floyd Louis Fri 13 Apr 2012, 12:26 pm
they have t-shirts of that now Chris!
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Valero's Conscience Fri 13 Apr 2012, 12:36 pm
I would have him Top 10 for sure, but a lot of my reasoning is down to what I believe he is capable of rather than given him that position due to his actual achievements.
IMO you could never rank him no.1 on his actual accomplishments and could only do so on what he think he might have done.
IMO you could never rank him no.1 on his actual accomplishments and could only do so on what he think he might have done.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by Kid Dynamite Fri 13 Apr 2012, 9:11 pm
Who has Mayweather beaten that compares to a Sam Langford, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, or Ray Robinson?
That's not to say Mayweather isn't a great fighter. Floyd has a series of good wins on his resume but I'm not entirely convinced.
Look at his recent opposition:
Mosley literally gassed out after 2-rounds and sadly appeared to be an over-the-hill fighter.
Marquez is a good fighter but he's not a natural welterweight and was against the odds in that fight. Mosley and Duran made the jump from lightweight but Marquez was way too small at welter.
Hatton - another guy who moved up in weight having previously looked shaky at 147. A good win? Yes. A great one? I'm not convinced because Hatton wasn't really an elite fighter.
I believe the De La Hoya win is his best one when you look at his recent opponents and that was 5-years ago.
His career-defining fight is right there and I truly believe he'd outbox Pacquiao but refusing a 50/50 split is just stupid.
Cotto is apparently getting 35% and should rake in $35m+. Floyd should agree to 50/50 and fight!
That's if he gets by Cotto which is no guarantee if look at their styles.
That's not to say Mayweather isn't a great fighter. Floyd has a series of good wins on his resume but I'm not entirely convinced.
Look at his recent opposition:
Mosley literally gassed out after 2-rounds and sadly appeared to be an over-the-hill fighter.
Marquez is a good fighter but he's not a natural welterweight and was against the odds in that fight. Mosley and Duran made the jump from lightweight but Marquez was way too small at welter.
Hatton - another guy who moved up in weight having previously looked shaky at 147. A good win? Yes. A great one? I'm not convinced because Hatton wasn't really an elite fighter.
I believe the De La Hoya win is his best one when you look at his recent opponents and that was 5-years ago.
His career-defining fight is right there and I truly believe he'd outbox Pacquiao but refusing a 50/50 split is just stupid.
Cotto is apparently getting 35% and should rake in $35m+. Floyd should agree to 50/50 and fight!
That's if he gets by Cotto which is no guarantee if look at their styles.
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Re: Mayweather- best ever?
by ShahenshahG Fri 13 Apr 2012, 9:28 pm
Welcome to the board KD. bubblelubblerubblelubblerubblerubblebubblelubblerubble I agree with nick...er chris. Pushing top ten but not quite there.
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