England to take +40 squad members on tour

So,
+40 squad members. At least 2 players in each position + 10 additionals.
Who would you take?
Bear in mind that - Tom Wood is out for season, Callum Clarke is on long term ban, Lawes is an injury doubt, Louis Deacon is not fit, J.Simpson ect.
Will Hartley be available in time? Croft should be fit. Haskell wont be available due to S15 season.

1st team
Corbis
Hartley (?)
Cole
Botha
Parling
Croft
Robshaw
Morgan
Care
Flood
Ashton
Barritt
Tuilagi
Sharples
Foden

2nd team
Marler
Mears
? (cant think of another TH - dont want Stevens but suspect he will go)
Robson
Attwood
Dowson
S.Armitage (unlikely I know)
Waldrom
Youngs
Farrell
Strettle
Allen
Lowe
Wade ? (take your pick - young boulter)
Brown

Then the extra 10 -
Would like to see - Rob Miller, Lawes (if fit), Jonny May, Ford, Mullan, J.George, Rupert Harden, L.Dickson, Fearns, J. Joseph.

Have I missed anyone? Who would you want to select?

Notable misses that should be on standby -
Tom Homer, Gibson, Kevesek, Wallace, Garvey (that big lock - not Marcel), A.Goode, Biggs.

Looking at the numbers I think Uncle Tom Cobbley is a good outside bet for a place in the tour party along with Henry Kitchen Von Sinkstrumm the young Saffer

Ha, very true RG.
I would have thought that 40 would be fine if they were playing a lot of mid weekers against provincial sides. But there are only 2 non test matches against Northern SA Babbas and Southern SA Babbas!

There will be a good few on the touring party that wont even feature. But, I suppose it gives the coaches a chance to see all the players together and makes for some very competative training sessions.

Those are good points Dave - The tour should be the most reliable barometer of where this team actually are after a strange 6 Nations - Good luck

A few weeks ago my team hosted a touring Dutch side that turned up with 60 players, and we could just about field 17! But, in the spirit of a tour we allowed them to have rolling subs so that everyone got a game.
What are the chances of SA being that generous?

I think the South Africans are more than capable of being that generous as they are an indegenous rugby nation and welcome all rugby nations with open arms. You might have to wait until they are 40 points ahead though before you can bring another sub on

Ha, well - in retrospect, allowing the touring team rolling subs was probably a stupid idea from our coach! I was up against a new front row every 15mins.

Assuming that the starting 15 from the 1st test won't be involved in the 1st mid-week game then it's 37 players already. Another 3 (+anyone resused from the starting test 15) as injury cover hardly over-board. I reckon everybody will get part of a game at least (second mid-week game will have anyone not yet played and not in the last test side).

Armitage won't be going as it clashes with the French playoffs. Doran-Jones will hopefully be the second tighthead (and on the bench for Stevens)

Ah, I had forgotten PDJ thanks Hammer.
Yes, I guess he will be there or thereabouts for the England squad. Although I am yet to be really impressed by him. But, that is down to a lack of game time I suppose.

OK, so Armitage is out (damn) He really is streets ahead of competition at the moment - opens the door for one of the young backrows though.

Is the tour in an designated international window? If it is dont England have an option to request his release from Toulon?

The current window is for 2 games during the summer. So he might be release for the first two but would have to go back part way through (or arrive late). Also he wouldn't have any training time with the squad.

I don't believe the IRB have changed the International window to include more games duringt he summer but could be wrong (it's regulation 9 on the IRB website)

Henry Kitchen Von Sinkstrumm the young Saffer

Got that far through the thread and then spat my tea. Swine!

England cricket at present is captained by a Strauss and SA by a Smith...

Between GB&I, Canada, SA, Australia and NZ there is a continuous movement of people, mostly young, who sometimes settle in places they didn't expect. I've relatives in a couple at least. The only migrants I object to are the purely rugby mercenaries and even there I don't feel it's an issue getting that worked up about. They rarely succeed for long.

On topic: With Lancaster's comments about blooding youngsters this size squad makes sense. It's in essence a full side and development side, more reminiscent of the Lions than a traditional touring team in terms of structure and organisation. Do we have any info on the number of coaches being taken yet? Ambitious and imo exciting - if I've read the signs right.

Cowshot - The size of the squad can work both for and against and it remains to be seen as with Woodwards disastrous gargantuan Lions squad - I think its a great opportunity for Lancaster to further establish the culture required to be part of his squad and ethos and that has to be a good thing. Lancaster has shown that he is a class act who is humble in victory and generous in defeat, Rare traits that many of his players can learn from. It should be the opportunity to start to see an England squad gelling as opposed to being divisive which we have wirnessed recently not helped by the poor management style of Johnson -

Looks like a decent squad. Wallace instead of Armitage?

I'm not usually a fan of big squads but I think in these circumstances it's a good idea. The tour comes right at the start of an era and Lancaster wants to look at as many players as he can, try to instill the squad ethos in as many players as he can and give them a taste of what it's like to be an international rugby player. It may serve as extra motivation for players next season, as he starts to whittle down to his core group.

I also suspect he'll have in mind entirely different teams for the midweek games, and if you factor in one or two inevitable injuries, then he'll want to have that cover over in SA.

I think it'll be a cracking tour.

I think I would still have liked to see another couple of mid-week games against provincial sides.

Chequered - I thought of Wallace, is he injured? hasnt played or been on the bench for the last few quins games.

I'm looking forward to this tour too. I'm hoping for good performances and would settle for 1 test match win. I know we should always aim to win everything, but thats the minimum I want from this tour + to find out about some of the youngsters.

RubyGuby wrote:Cowshot - The size of the squad can work both for and against and it remains to be seen as with Woodwards disastrous gargantuan Lions squad - I think its a great opportunity for Lancaster to further establish the culture required to be part of his squad and ethos and that has to be a good thing. Lancaster has shown that he is a class act who is humble in victory and generous in defeat, Rare traits that many of his players can learn from. It should be the opportunity to start to see an England squad gelling as opposed to being divisive which we have wirnessed recently not helped by the poor management style of Johnson -

Squad size can as you say work for and against. I think if he does it right Lancaster can make this work, partly because around half the squad will know they are primarily to gain experience in the midweek squad (but of course, if you are there, you have a chance of making the Test side - very important) whereas it can be hard to find Lions' players willing to take on that role (Bentley was a great one). It also suggests a long term development plan being put into place from the outset of Lancaster's tenure. Just hope he's given time. Actually think he will be.

We've already seen the ethos in the 6Ns and I like it. He's drawn a clear line in the sand with eg the Care ban and said Do Not Cross. Clear from the start and will reap the benefit of early imposition of discipline because the players know where they stand. I think the comment that spoke most to me was Rowntree's about the atmosphere Lancaster created that made you want to be part of it, to the extent that for the first time in his coaching career, at the end of the campaign he didn't just want to get home and collapse, he went and had a quiet beer and a chat with Stuart and Andy and the lads. Anyway, a long, long way to go but the first steps at least appear to be in the right direction and with a good set of kit.

my choice

1. Corbs
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Garvey
5. Parling
6. Croft
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10.Flood
11. Ashton
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Sharples
15. Foden
Bench
Webber, PDJ, Lawes (if fit), Fearns, Dickson, Farrell, Brown
Second Team
1. Marler
2. Webber
3. PDJ
4. Attwood
5. Botha
6. Dowson
7. Kvesic
8. Fearns
9. Dickson
10. Farrell
11. May
12. JTH
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Brown

Would take as the extra ten - Launchbury, Strettle, Mullan, George, Lowe, Harden, Allen, Ford, Banahan and Jake Abbott the Worcester 7

many people will disagree with strettle not being in either team, but he is something of a pet hate of mine i dont rate him very highly at all, and i would rather see may and wade given a shot as they have genuine pace and Wade inparticular could be lethal. Want to see Parling with an enforcer, who i think is much needed, so Garvey and Attwood get time in that role.

The players on the bench for the 1st team who also feature in the midweek team i would play for the first 50-60 mins then replace

foden,brown ashton,wade strettle,benjamin tuilagi,trinder barritt,allen flood,farrell youngs,care corbs,marler hartley,mears cole,pdj garvey,lawes parling,palmer croft,johnson robshaw,fearns morgan,dowson +10=may,jth,hodgson,wigglesworth,mullan,t.youngs,thomas,launchbury,waldrom,wallace. would have picked webber,deacon,brooker,wood,haskell,s.armitage if they were available.would prefer burns/ford to hodgson but think lancaster will take him.was talking about pecking order on radio.got a horrible feeling flood will play the 2 dirt trackers.dickson didnt look test class when he started for england,wigglesworth played well in world cup.mears and palmer both 33 now,wont be around much longer but win a place cos of injuries.stevens is a fat penalty machine who i blame for us losing the welsh game.

sharples not strettle

1. Corbs
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Botha
5. Parling
6. Croft
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10.Flood
11. Ashton
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Sharples
15. Foden

Second Team

1. Marler
2. Webber
3. PDJ
4. Attwood
5. Garvey
6. Dowson
7. Kvesic
8. Waldrom
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Allen
13. Trinder
14. Wade
15. Brown

Would take as the extra ten - Launchbury, Joseph, Mullan, Burns, Lowe, Harden, Twelvetrees, Goode, S Armitage, Lawes

I think Allen would work better with someone powerful like Lowe outside him than Trinder, who is very good but would play better outside a more direct player like Barritt or JTH to be honest

But imagine at altitude- a back three of Brown (massive boot gets even longer), Wade and May fielding a kick... With Allen and Lowe/Trinder inside them and JJ on the bench. Care making breaks. Farrell kicking out of hand. Maybe 36 or Burns on the bench too. I'd love to see it!


But you also need a 3rd Scrum half, mate, 2 is too risky

Fair enough, I didn't put much thought into it, just chose 40 players that sprung to mind. In which case just swap someone for Dickson.

The rugby world would wake up if we played that backline. Might not have the experience to win any games, but it would be quite something to watch.

Especially on hard ground. I reckon it's not that defensively weak either... Allen punches above his weight and organises the line well, Farrell is a good tackler, Lowe is an awesome defender, Wade is surprisingly strong there and Brown's defence is now one of his strong points. I think it is a feasible midweek side

I see Lancaster said he was taking 40+ players on tour, with how he did in the 6ns with a lot of young players in the team.Hope he takes more young players on tour, and stays with them through to the Ais and on to next years 6ns.

England could very well have a lot stronger team next year, would like to think that all the players that Lancaster takes that they will all get game time.

ChequeredJersey wrote:But imagine at altitude- a back three of Brown (massive boot gets even longer), Wade and May fielding a kick... With Allen and Lowe/Trinder inside them and JJ on the bench. Care making breaks. Farrell kicking out of hand. Maybe 36 or Burns on the bench too. I'd love to see it!


But you also need a 3rd Scrum half, mate, 2 is too risky

I like the back 3 CJ, but the midfield is TOO lightweight.

Wheres the players you can get powering up the middle when the boks defence is slammed shut closing all the gaps. What happens when the big Saffers start getting on the hoof and hitting that midfield.

Dont get me wrong i want to see skilled players in our backs...and we have an abundance coming through...i just think you need an element of power and size to balance it off...and allow for a plan b so to speak...

Well I'm an advocate of Allen - Tuilagi or JTH/Barritt with a flyer outside but it looks like Barritt- Tuilagi is our first choice centre pairing

I am a big fan of Lowe...your quins 13. He has a lot of strength for his size...and has great offensive ability. I prefer him to Trinder.

I do think itll be Barritt Tuilagi.

But i would love to see a wing combo of May and Wade at some point...with Foden or Brown at Fb....that would be frightening....

Midweek centres of Allen Lowe though would be defensively pretty sound though- if we could put a juggernaut on the bench to switch to power play it would work. Not sure who could do that though

England backs:
Ben Foden, Mike Brown, Rob Miller;
Charlie Sharples, David Strettle, Jonny May, Chris Ashton, Christian Wade;
Brad Barrit, Manu Tuilagi, Anthony Allen, Jamie Joseph;
Toby Flood, Owen Farrel, Charlie Hodgson;
Lee Dickson, Ben Youngs, Danny Care.

I only watch highlights on ITV2 so bear with me.

That's a pretty good selection, Morg. I'd rather leave one back 3 player and take another centre but it's a perfectly valid set of backs. I suposse May could cover 13 and Farrell 12

Morgannwg wrote:England backs:
Ben Foden, Mike Brown, Rob Miller;
Charlie Sharples, David Strettle, Jonny May, Chris Ashton, Christian Wade;
Brad Barrit, Manu Tuilagi, Anthony Allen, Jamie Joseph;
Toby Flood, Owen Farrel, Charlie Hodgson;
Lee Dickson, Ben Youngs, Danny Care.

I only watch highlights on ITV2 so bear with me.

I think that's very very close to what it's going to be. The 'questionable' ones are Miller, May, Wade, Joseph and Hodgson (for me). I'd take Wade, Joseph and Lowe. I'd rather Burns over Hodgson. Then one out of May and Miller. I haven't seen enough of either to pick.

Just going with who I know to be the best ones in their position. There's no point in taking somebody like Ford as has been suggested because England aren't lacking depth. And like CJ says, there are some players who can cover other positions. May seems to have done it well at club level. Farrell did it well enough for England.

The selection is the tried and tested ones with the form inexperienced players. I probably wouldn't pair Allen with Joseph though, I'd pair him with May. JJ can play wing also right?

Yeah JJ can play wing. I'd cap him off the bench covering 13 and wing

Twelvetrees.

Competition for the ic is as good as i can remember with JTH, Barrett, Allen all capable, however for me it has to be Twelvetrees that will ultimately take the shirt.

I think JTH is just a decent club player at best. He's been hyped up before a few times but been made to look below average opposite Roberts, Allen, etc..

When has he aced off against Roberts? I mean, I think Roberts is a better crash centre but I wasn't aware that they'd played each other anytime recently

During Blues hammering of the Quins at the stoop, 2010 I think? MOTM award for Roberts. If you think all JR can do is crash then you are wrong. The recent Tigers vs Quins, Allen made him look average. I think he can be overated at times.

I have vast respect for Jamie Roberts (he is not just a crash centre but e does almost exclusively fulfill the straight in direct draw the defence role for Wales at least- which is fine, he's the lynchpin of their plan A), he got to be first choice Lion inside centre for a reason, I just couldn't remember him playing JTH. I'm all for England not using JTH (though he's not that one dimensional either)- he doesn't go with Tuilagi that well and at the moment Barritt is a better direct centre option. I'd rather have him back at Quins because his charge and offload game is very much part of our main strategy

I think JTH is a quality player, but Barritt & Allen shade him, they give better organisation & structure to the defence, and can offer a similar sort of platform for attacking play (if not in exactly the same manner). I'd prefer to take Twelvetrees, he offers a different sort of platform and manner of utilising our backline.

Corbisero, Marler, Mullan
Hartley, Gray, Lindsay/George
Cole, PDJ, Wilson
Parling, Lawes, Garvey, Botha, Robson, Attwood (Garvey & Lawes both cover 6)
Croft, Robshaw, Morgan, Fearns, Waldrom, Dowson, Wallace/Gibson
(I'd love to take Armitage, but the French timetable prevents it)

Youngs, Care, Dickson
Flood, Farrell, Burns
Barritt, Allen, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Joseph
Sharples, Ashton, Wade, May, Strettle
Foden, Brown

A number of players will unfortunately miss out due to injury



Test:
Corbisero
Hartley
Cole
Parling
Botha
Croft
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Flood
Sharples
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

PDJ
Gray
Lawes
Dowson
Care
Farrell
May



Midweek:
Marler
Lindsay/George
Wilson
Garvey
Robson
Fearns
Wallace/Gibson
Waldrom
Dickson
Burns
Strettle
Twelvetrees/Allen
Joseph
Wade
Brown

PDJ/Mullan
Gray
Attwood
Dowson
Care
Farrell/Twelvetrees
May


I'd definitely be looking to promote players between squads or from the bench.

You only seem to have 2 back row players in the mid-week team. Or do you mean Wallace AND Gibson playing?

Oops, corrected. Waldrom was the missing player, holding a spot for whom I hope will be Crane or Fearns in the future.

I wouldn't take Waldrum for a midweek team. He's decent but there's no point putting him in for development (which is the purpose of the barbarian games). I'd rather start working on Morgan's backup now (I'd try Fearns).

I agree with that sentiment, but with the likes of Wood, Crane, Haskell & Armitage injured/unavailable I thought the backrow could do with a more experienced player to facilitate the entry of the young players to that level.

Guest would have been my other option, but I don't think he's been at his best since returing from injury and wouldn't provide as good a spine to introduce the other players on.

I had considered playing Fearns at 8 and Waldrom at 6 (like he played with Crane at Tigers last season), but thought Waldrom at 8 would allow the other two to settle into that level of rugby more easily. Depending on how they go in that first midweek game I'd very happily swap them over.

But Waldrum's not experienced at international level (same with Dowson and he didn't go too well in the 6 nations).

But he's a more experienced player with at least 5 more years of professional rugby under his belt than the players I would partner him with (that sort of experience is crucial in pressure foreign situations). Plus those years were in Super Rugby and against the sort of player, mentality & team they will be facing.

Like I said, if other players were available he wouldn't be my first choice, but I don't think the heavily reduced alternatives would better facilitate those I want to give the best platform to perform from. He's scaffolding, not the preferred outcome, but a functional stepping stone. Who would you suggest in his place?

And Dowson has got good knows how much experience in the premiership, often as a standout player. And he was outdone by a young lad with a few seasons of PRO12 under his belt.

If you're putting someone in for experience then put Easter in.

That's never going to happen, the reasons given for why he was left out will make it impossible for Lancaster to recall him.

I understand that people object to Waldrom on principle, but Lanacaster doesn't and given the injury/absentee limitations you can pretty much guarantee he'll be selected.

If we're completely ditching the reality of what Lancaster is inclined to do there would be other changes I'd make.

No no no to Waldrum.

Better younger ENGLISH versions around. Id rather take our Falcons 20 year old No.8 Mark Wilson than him!

Im a huge fan of Dowson....but i think he showed in the 6n that he isnt the force he was a few years back and its a bit late for him now.

Give another youngster a shot. We have experience now in Hartley, Cole, Palmer, Croft, etc...leadership in Croft, hartley, Robshaw....

We need to thank Mr Johnson for that....

I don't think Lancaster will take Dowson and Waldrum. Dowson is the 'experienced' backup for Morgan. Then in addition I think he'll take one for the future (either Fearns or Gibson would be my guess). If Dowson was unavailable I'd be pretty certain Waldrum would replace him (and would be happy for that).

I'm not fussed about Waldrum because he's not for the future. I don't care how he qualifies (although I don't like the grandparents thing, especially since he apparently didn't even know) [unlike GeordieFalcon from his use of capitals ]