England to take +40 squad members on tour

First topic message reminder :

So,
+40 squad members. At least 2 players in each position + 10 additionals.
Who would you take?
Bear in mind that - Tom Wood is out for season, Callum Clarke is on long term ban, Lawes is an injury doubt, Louis Deacon is not fit, J.Simpson ect.
Will Hartley be available in time? Croft should be fit. Haskell wont be available due to S15 season.

1st team
Corbis
Hartley (?)
Cole
Botha
Parling
Croft
Robshaw
Morgan
Care
Flood
Ashton
Barritt
Tuilagi
Sharples
Foden

2nd team
Marler
Mears
? (cant think of another TH - dont want Stevens but suspect he will go)
Robson
Attwood
Dowson
S.Armitage (unlikely I know)
Waldrom
Youngs
Farrell
Strettle
Allen
Lowe
Wade ? (take your pick - young boulter)
Brown

Then the extra 10 -
Would like to see - Rob Miller, Lawes (if fit), Jonny May, Ford, Mullan, J.George, Rupert Harden, L.Dickson, Fearns, J. Joseph.

Have I missed anyone? Who would you want to select?

Notable misses that should be on standby -
Tom Homer, Gibson, Kevesek, Wallace, Garvey (that big lock - not Marcel), A.Goode, Biggs.

GeordieFalcon, I'm not advocating Waldrom for the test squad, just the midweek where there will be a lot of youth and inexperience (look at the midweek squad I put forward). If Wood, Crane or Haskell were available I wouldn't have suggested Waldrom, but against a Barbarian Bok side that will likely contain a number of wiley Super Rugby operators who might have a point or two to make, you need one or two players who have been round the block to get the best out of the team (particularly in the backrow).


Hammer, he had both in the smaller 6N squad. Wood remains injured (who Waldrom was brought in for), Clark has removed himself and Lancaster has to add a couple of backrowers on top of that to form the 40 man squad. I'd be pretty surprised if Dowson & Waldrom didn't both go.

If they were all available and I had a free hand to select any backrowers, I'd probably be going for Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Morgan, Crane, Armitage, Fearns & Haskell

I like every English rugby supporter am massively excited about the coming tour. Firstly, as tours like this are what make rugby union so so special and secondly, because we will see the new English players given their opportunity against world class opposition in their own backyard.

Now my point is this, I like everyone am more than happy to see youth be given its head, for example if deemed good enough I would like to see the likes of Billy Vunipola gain mid week experience, however are we all not forgetting about the need for experienced players to provide their unique contribution? I would definitely take Easter and would be very interested to know if Sheridan is being considered for an experiened player role?

Croft, Wood, Lawes, Simpson, Sharples and Webber all definately not touring.

Simpson is not a loss - we have Dickson, Youngs, Care to cover.

Wood was always a doubt for fitness - opens the door for youngsters. Maybe Wallace, Gibson ect.

Croft is a big loss - looked to be getting some real form back and would have been very useful in SA.

Sharples - feel sorry for him as he was just starting to cement place in squad. Again, there is space for a young flyer - Wade, JJ, maybe Jonny May ect.

Webber - well we are really short of no.2's at the moment. Back up would have been the Quins boys but both injured. Hartley, Mears now likely to travel and maybe jamie George.

Lawes - well, there will be Botha and Parling, opens the door for maybe Attwood to return and maybe Robson.

however are we all not forgetting about the need for experienced players to provide their unique contribution? I would definitely take Easter and would be very interested to know if Sheridan is being considered for an experiened player role?

Elderfield: I would rather take Easter over Waldrum if we are looking for an experienced performing 8. But Sheridan is a waste of a spot. We have Marler, Wood, Mullan and Corbs...4 much better LH's....

Webber - well we are really short of no.2's at the moment. Back up would have been the Quins boys but both injured. Hartley, Mears now likely to travel and maybe jamie George.

Mears got taken apart on his last tour, whats the point in taking him.
Go with Hartley, Gray if he's fit (though im not a fan- he's just another Mears if tyou ask me)and then look at Lindsay, George and Youngs.

As for Lawes...Launchbery has been playing class...Robson is too small for international rugby...not sure how well Attwood has been playing.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Robson is too small for international rugby

According to the official AP website he's the same size as the 1st XV incumbents:

Robson, 6'5", 113kg
Botha, 6'6", 112kg
Parling, 6'6", 114kg

And the SF site has Palmer as 6'6", 113kg.

Robson needs to grow some hair to add that extra inch.

Apparently Care and Haskell have been told they are in contention to be selected.

No great shock that croft has been withdrawn, hes played a ridiculous amount of rugby over the last few years.

Robson needs to stop doing all the technical work and just focus on making one bit hit a game for the highlights.

Hi Yappy,
Its amazing how much stick Robson gets. That covering tackle in the Sarries game on Short was outstanding (or maybe it was Strettle).

Care should be in the mix anyway now that Simpson is out -
Dickson, Youngs and Care should all go.

Haskell is a surprise - he will have had a very long season (barring a recent 3 week rest).

With Croft out I would like to think that there is more of a need for S.Armitage to be called up rather than a Haskell type player.

timhen wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Robson is too small for international rugby

According to the official AP website he's the same size as the 1st XV incumbents:

Robson, 6'5", 113kg
Botha, 6'6", 112kg
Parling, 6'6", 114kg

And the SF site has Palmer as 6'6", 113kg.

Robson needs to stop doing all the technical work and just focus on making one bit hit a game for the highlights.

Ok for a starter Yappy im not one who just looks for big hits. I want my players to have skills aswell .

I just like my Second Rows to have some serious size and power about them...ala Simon Shaw, Johno, Grewcock, etc...

Botha wouldnt be my 1st choice...i'd pick Garvey over him.

As for Robson...i appreicate he is the lineout guy...but i just dont see him as an international second row. Parling offers more with ball in hand is equally as good in the lineout and in the rucks etc.

Robson/Parling in the AP

Matches 18/8
Tries 1/0
Try Assists 1/0
Carries 88/50
Metres 95/49
Clean Breaks 2/0
Offloads 9/3
Defenders Beaten 3/0
Tackles 97/59
Tackles Missed 5/14
Lineouts Won 76/31

You have to bear in mind that Robson has played twice as many matches when looking at outright numbers. In terms of metres per carry there's not much between them, but Robson definitely seems to do more in terms of getting beyond defenders (Parling doesn't even register here) and then shifting the ball on. In terms of effectiveness in the tackle Robson certainly takes the lead, 94% succesful vs 80%.



Robson/Parling in the HC

Matches 5/3
Carries 27/13
Metres 34/3
Clean Breaks 0/0
Offloads 5/0
Defenders Beaten 0/0
Tackles 29/13
Tackles Missed 4/2
Lineouts Won 20/13

A much smaller sample size here and against different opposition (Parling played Ulster twice and Aironi once, Robson played Toulouse & Connacht twice and Gloucester once), so conclusions would be questionable, but the numbers definitely point to Robson being more effective with the ball in hand.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/fixtures/3538935/Rugby-Union-Statistics.html

Interesting stats Slowe which would seem to go against my thoughts / opinions.

Whilst i will never be a fan, im the type to hold my hands up if im wrong, and if Robson goes to SA and plays well then i will take back my criticsm and applaud him.

Personally I don't think there is a world of difference between the quality of Parling & Robson.

Parling went well in the 6N and is fully deserving of retaining his spot. Until he's tested we can't be certain of how Robson would perform at international level, but I don't have any concerns about testing him in the midweek side (there haven't been many if any better performing locks in the premiership this season). I think he'll pair well with Garvey. And if he can put in a performance against SA sides he should be able to cut it against most.

There will likely be 4 locks in the touring party (maybe 5).
Parling and Botha are nailed on as the starting pair (barring injury).
Space for another 2 -
Attwood and Robson
Room for 1 more -
Garvey

Hi all, don't comment on this forum often (do follow it regularly though) but have to admit this is a topic that interests me greatly.

Personally I can't see how a number of current squad members can justify their place, and focusing on the second row in particular Mauritz Botha shouldn't be in the squad. Yes he had some decent games in the the 6 Nations but do we want to settle for decent?

If you look at the people who are pushing for his position, i.e. the traditional enforcer type Lock, you pick out Matt Garvey, Dave Attwood, Courtney Lawes and now young Joe Launchbury, all of whom are younger, work equally hard in defence and, most importantly, offer more going forward.

Looking at some stats of their performance (order goes Botha/ Garvey/ Attwood/ Launchbury/ Lawes)

Matches: 16/18/20/13/8
Tries: 0/1/3/0/0
Passes: 21/27/23/18/16
Carries: 59/156/106/90/36
Meters: 70/242/212/152/90
Breaks: 2/2/2/2/1
Offloads: 4/4/4/8/1
Def Beaten: 1/5/11/5/3
Tackles: 115/129/100/125/61
Missed Tack: 17/9/14/10/5
Lineouts Won: 26/29/44/14/25

I know some will say stats don't always tell the whole story, but if someone is performing at the same level if not better and they're younger shouldn't they get the nod?

Apologies but the stats were from the Telegraph website and centred on the premiership performance

jamesandimac wrote:Hi all, don't comment on this forum often (do follow it regularly though) but have to admit this is a topic that interests me greatly.

Personally I can't see how a number of current squad members can justify their place, and focusing on the second row in particular Mauritz Botha shouldn't be in the squad. Yes he had some decent games in the the 6 Nations but do we want to settle for decent?

If you look at the people who are pushing for his position, i.e. the traditional enforcer type Lock, you pick out Matt Garvey, Dave Attwood, Courtney Lawes and now young Joe Launchbury, all of whom are younger, work equally hard in defence and, most importantly, offer more going forward.

Looking at some stats of their performance (order goes Botha/ Garvey/ Attwood/ Launchbury/ Lawes)

Modified to per game

Matches: 16/18/20/13/8
Tries: 0/0.1/0.2/0/0
Passes: 1.3/1.5/1.2/1.4/2.0
Carries: 3.7/8.7/5.3/6.9/4.5
Meters: 4.4/13.4/10.6/11.7/11.3
Meter per carry: 1.2/1.5/2.0/1.7/2.5
Breaks: 0.1/0.1/0.1/0.2/0.1
Offloads: 0.3/0.2/0.2/0.6/0.1
Def Beaten: 0.1/0.3/0.6/0.4/0.4
Tackles: 7.2/7.2/5.0/9.6/7.6
Missed Tack: 1.1/0.5/0.7/0.8/0.6
Missed Tack per Tackle: 0.2/0.1/0.1/0.1/0.1
Lineouts Won: 1.6/1.6/2.2/1.1/3.1

I know some will say stats don't always tell the whole story, but if someone is performing at the same level if not better and they're younger shouldn't they get the nod?

Basically Botha really not up to much on the stats. These don't include ruck involvement, rucks turned over, rucks defended, speed of ball from ruck, etc, etc

Stats can be and are misleading. Robson played much of his rugby during the WC and 6N when the quality of the AP is at its lowest. He offers little in terms of carrying for me and is underpowered for his size. He is Borthwick mark II and not International quality.

Robson is very solid on his own throw but I don't think he offers much of a threat to the opposition which Parling does.

I personally wouldn't have Robson anywhere near an England jersey.

That's a pretty mean-spirited view, Sgt Pooly. By definition any player who's played 18 AP games this season will have played a chunk of them during the RWC and 6N. Does that not also make the stats on Garvey, Attwood et al misleading too? Robson doesn't carry as much as some of those guys, but then Quins have more carrying options in their pack than most teams. And his missed-tackle rate is half (and lineout take rate twice) that of the other second rows listed.

Isn't tarring a player with the epithets "Borthwick mark II and not International quality" a little rich when said player has zero international experience? At least Borthwick could be judged by his actual performances. I can point to plenty of players who were also thought to be "not international quality" and went on to have moderately successful international careers, like Neil Back and Mike Catt.

For what it's worth, I'd agree that Robson's solid all-round game might lack the extra something to make him an international mainstay. My guess is that at Quins Charlie Matthews will emerge as the standout contender over the next couple of years, but it seems daft to me to dismiss out of hand a player who's performing well at club level and hasn't even been tried at international level. He should be a contender for the midweek games; if he doesn't shine then so be it, but we won't know until he's tried.

Hammer you are correct, the stats are not complete and only show a selected view. I've always been interested to know how many rucks players hit in a game and what the result of their involvement has been, the same for the tackle situation, so that I can get a more informed view of the players performance, sadly these stats are hard to come by.

Looking at the stats on the view of "speed of ball from ruck", is it not easier for the attacking team to get quicker ball delivered from the ruck when their ball carriers get over the gain line and force the defence on the back foot? Surely a more powerful ball carrier and effective ball carrier here would allow this?

Also looking at the view that stats can be misleading, I think its whether you've got the right stats that is the most important thing (Hammers point). This is something the All Blacks pioneered through Alistair Rogers and other teams are now starting to follow suit.

Back to Botha. Stats tell part of the story, what they don't tell is that since the 6 Nations he's only had 2 starts for Saracens against Quins and Clermont, and in both games I didnt see him do anything of note bar one break in the Quins game. Since then he has lost his starting place to young George Kruis for the last 2 games.

I really haven't been impressed with Botha at all. A decent premiership who's a hard worker but that's about it. He probably got the right attitude for Lancaster which helps the squad but the sooner he's replaced (with someone better of course) the better.

I couldn't agree more. Garvey, Attwood and Launchbury should all go i feel to cover the enforcer duties. Garvey and Attwood to battle for the Test games and Launchbury for the dirt trackers.

Poorfour....

" Does that not also make the stats on Garvey, Attwood et al misleading too? "

Yes it does, I'm not a big fan of stats. I didn't state the stats made Robson look good/bad but rather I have the opinion he's a poor carrier and offers little on the opp throw for a "lineout" lock.

I've watched a lot of Robson and I fail to see anything in him as an International I'm afraid. I seem to recall him playing for the Saxons (bordering Int chance?) and I thought he was totally outplayed by Garvey/Tuhoy in a pretty dominant England pack. You could say this was a crack at a higher level of rugby and he did not shine?

As it stands I'm don't think Attwood would have toured if Lawes was fit as he's not had a great season.

Who should Lancaster pick? I'm not do sure past Parling, Garvey and Botha. Lawes is a loss as he seemed to building some form. Palmer is a wasted spot with his age and poor form also.

Parling & Botha nailed on then It's from a pool of Launchbury, Attwood, Garvey. Can Attwood lead a line??

Launchbury could be needed for his blindside ability!

Add in that he has been in great form and will be a second row...hes one id take.

PS Pooly, im with you on not being a Robson fan...

Launchbury can genuinely cover SR and 6, I think he ought to tour. Bench midweekers to start and work from there. Robson and Kohn are a very effective partnership- I'm not sure I advocate taking either alone

Ollie Kohn is a big lump of a lad though and is a real physical presence.

Im a huge believer that in that engine room you need some serious physical presence (obviously with skill) and even the lineout expert should be able to handle himself.

Johnson and Kay, and Botha and Matfield are good examples of this.

Yes i know they are exceptions as they are world cup winning pairs...but it shows what i want in England second row.

Botha , Robson, Parling, Palmer etc dont match up to that...though have done ok in the meantime...

Even Lawes is concerning me. He could be the ideal lineout guy / athletic lock IF he can become a lineout expert and leader...but im just not sure he is going to be able to do this....and whilst hes a powerful young aggressive lad...im not sure he's quite the build for the enforcer style role...though i really hope im proven wrong. He needs to settle this summer have completely rest and recover....get a crackin preseason in and come out blasting!

Agree with you Geordie. For locks of the future i'd look at:

Slater
Launchberry
Kitchener
Attwood
Lawes
Parling

The last two aren't as beefy but still put themselves about a lot more then others; plus Parling just seems a quality lock, even if he isn't the biggest I can still see him being more effective then most.

Good group that Yappy, Slater has really stepped up this year. Could be a real option given another strong season.