England Squad for tour of South Africa

The three Tests take place on 9, 16 and 23 June.

Forwards (23): Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Otago Highlanders), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Lee Mears (Bath Rugby), Ben Morgan (Scarlets), Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors), Tom Palmer (Stade Francais), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins), George Robson (Harlequins), Matt Stevens (Saracens), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (19): Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins) Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Charlie Hodgson (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish), George Lowe (Harlequins), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), David Strettle (Saracens), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

It should be a nice trip for those returning home

Inclusions of Tom Youngs, Ugo Monye and Graham Kitchener only real surprises for me. I would have much preferred Jamie George, Miles Benjamin and one of Dave Attwood or Matt Garvey instead.

I also think Doran-Jones is massively overrated, and definitely not international quality. Rupert Harden at Gloucester is a much better player.

Jonny May, Rob Miller, Billy Twelvetrees, Jamie Gibson, Freddie Burns and Tom Homer are all unlucky to miss out.

That said, with the likes of Fearns, Launchberry, Marler, Farrell, Tuilagi, Joseph, Lowe and Wade coming though, we have some real promising talent at our disposal.

robshaw - I agree with your sentements about PDJ. But he has been in and around the England squad for a while now - We need to trust that Wiggy knows what he is doing and either sees potential or has a lot of faith that he will come good.
I write that but at the same time am thinking 'but Matt Stevens has been picked too'.
Scratch all the above - talking bloddocks.

Matt stevens hasn't been given a proper chance to shine at tighthead.....i agree he is a terrible international loosie but he was brilliant around 2007 and was an absolute bolter upon his return in the churchill cup as a tighthead which forced his way back into the 2011 RWC squad.

Since his return to interanational rugby johnson played him as a loosehead..at which he is frankly quite terrible and this has destroyed his confidence around the park which is where he really shines.

Starting english props in the top 4 sides in England
Northampton.... None (PDJ warms pine )
Saracens....Stevens (tighthead)
Leicester...Cole
Harlequins...Marler

Stevens is one of the few starting EQ props playing at the highest level in the premiership...aquitting himself well over Ayerza in the semi final. The guy is class give him a chance starting at tighthead in the midweek team in SA and stop using him as a utility/loosie.

Stevens is a bit of a penalty machine at the moment.
Either he is doing something different to the others and the ref's are pinging him for it, or he is just struggling to find his binding.
After a period of rough games referees do seem to have a pre-conception of weak scrummagers - Stevens is in that category where a scrum collapses on Stevens side they will assume its him thats collapsing.

Its been a long time since i've seen him have a great game!

It's no coincidence that in all the big games, Sarries pick Nieto at 3.... Stevens is shoite i'm afraid. His strength and conditioning are well off the mark for the top level, performing well in the Churchill cup against the likes of Ireland A (who can't even fill out the main side with props!) and USA does not mean he's good.

bathmad +1. Completely agree - But Rowntree must see some use there, else why pick him!
I can only assume that its the same reason Payne collected so many caps - experience.

Doesn't awarding caps for experience lead to a vicious circle where you have to keep giving Stevens caps forever as each time he is more experienced than the last?

Hence Tim Payne getting 25 odd caps!
True its a problem.

Maybe it's all a ploy and Stevens has been under orders to deliberately play badly for Club and country to lull the Saffers into a false sense of security before systematically tearing their set piece to pieces?

hmmm maybe.

I'm never confident when Stevens is on the pitch for England. He's either going to give away a penalty in some fashion or offer nothing in terms of go forward ball.

Flood possibly out of SA Tour

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9273254/Leicester-furious-with-Stuart-Lancaster-for-divulging-privileged-information-about-Toby-Floods-injury.html

Zander wrote:I'm never confident when Stevens is on the pitch for England. He's either going to give away a penalty in some fashion or offer nothing in terms of go forward ball.

These type of comments really upset Beshocked.

No Morg, Beshocked openly admits that Stevens is not playing well atm

So are you boys confident of beating us in the DEEEEEEP south?

biltongbek wrote:So are you boys confident of beating us in the DEEEEEEP south?

Not as much as I would like. I think we'll put up a good fight and maybe sneak one test win, but it hopefully should be close. We have a number of players who can hurt the Boks but overall I think SA will just be too strong for us.

Zander, I think it will be a close fought series.

England has the upper hand with the fact that Lancaster has played his new combinations during the six Nations, we on the other hand has no time to prepare and will have some new combinations as well.

We might end the series better than how we will start it.

biltongbek wrote:So are you boys confident of beating us in the DEEEEEEP south?

Of course. 2-1 England.

My head says quite emphatically no. My heart, well I really hope we can steal one off you!

No Morg, Beshocked openly admits that Stevens is not playing well atm

I think he was really hoping Nieto would play in the Semi against Tigers instead. Can't blame him, Stevens really was the worst Sarries forward on the park that day. If Sarries could sign a top tighthead I'd be seriously concerned.

So are you boys confident of beating us in the DEEEEEEP south?

Depends on the injury situations for Flood, Care etc. The lineout has taken a hit with Croft and Wood out, England really need all their best options at half back on tour in order to win.

In the AI series 8 man benches will be trialled at International level. I assume Marler will be added to the bench, and Stevens will be competing with Doran-Jones and whoever else purely as a tight-head. I was a big fan of his before his ban, but the Churchill Cup aside (and that was against weak oppo), he hasn't done enough for me since getting back from his ban.

Article on the rule changes (including 8 man benches): https://www.606v2.com/t29370-rule-changes

In response to your comment Biltong, I'd say that South Africa go into the series as favourites, but for the first time in a while I think England are sending a team to the Southern Hemisphere who are capable of winning a series. Whether they will or not is another question. If Flood is ruled out, it will become a hell of a lot harder though, that's for sure.

robbo277 wrote:In the AI series 8 man benches will be trialled at International level. I assume Marler will be added to the bench, and Stevens will be competing with Doran-Jones and whoever else purely as a tight-head. I was a big fan of his before his ban, but the Churchill Cup aside (and that was against weak oppo), he hasn't done enough for me since getting back from his ban.

Article on the rule changes (including 8 man benches): https://www.606v2.com/t29370-rule-changes

In response to your comment Biltong, I'd say that South Africa go into the series as favourites, but for the first time in a while I think England are sending a team to the Southern Hemisphere who are capable of winning a series. Whether they will or not is another question. If Flood is ruled out, it will become a hell of a lot harder though, that's for sure.

That's good news, I think the only reason Marler hasn't won his first England cap is due to that rule and so should finally see him given the opportunity as he certainly is a great prospect.

i think one test win and no thrashings would represent a good tour for england.

winning the final test would also be nice, finishing on a high and showing improvement and progress will be good for momentum going into next seasson and the AI's.

HQ matt wrote:i think one test win and no thrashings would represent a good tour for england.

winning the final test would also be nice, finishing on a high and showing improvement and progress will be good for momentum going into next seasson and the AI's.

I know what you mean about taking the final test and momentum into the next round of games, but there's something of an anti-climax about winning the last game of a series when it's already lost. See 2009 Lions.

Having said that it's better than winning none at all. See 2005 Lions.

HQ matt wrote:i think one test win and no thrashings would represent a good tour for england.

winning the final test would also be nice, finishing on a high and showing improvement and progress will be good for momentum going into next seasson and the AI's.

Matt, I think england has a better chance first test than later on, the Boks will only settle by the end.

biltongbek wrote:

HQ matt wrote:i think one test win and no thrashings would represent a good tour for england.

winning the final test would also be nice, finishing on a high and showing improvement and progress will be good for momentum going into next seasson and the AI's.

Matt, I think england has a better chance first test than later on, the Boks will only settle by the end.

I agree, we really need to do well in the first test if we are to have any chance of beating SA. As you say, SA will only get better as the tour goes on.