My 40 man England squad for South Africa

With Lawes, Croft, Wood, Sharples, Simpson and Webber injured and Callum Clarke banned. That opens up 7 places into the original EPS, whilst there are another 7 places up for grabs to be included in the summer tour to South Africa.

This would be my touring squad....

Back Three

Ben Foden, Mike Brown, Jonny May, Chris Ashton, David Strettle, Christian Wade, Miles Benjamin.

Centres

Manu Tuilagi, Brad Barritt, Jordan Turner-Hall, Jonathan Joseph

Half Backs

Toby Flood, Owen Farrell, Danny Cipriani, Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Lee Dickson, Karl Dickson.

Props

Alex Corbisiero, Joe Marler, Matt Mullan, Dan Cole, Matt Stevens, Henry Thomas.

Hookers

Dylan Hartley (vc), Lee Mears, Jamie George, David Paice.

Locks

Geoff Parling, Mouritz Botha, Dave Attwood, George Robson, Matt Garvey.

Back Row

Chris Robshaw (c), Ben Morgan, Carl Fearns, Steffon Armitage, Joe Launchberry, Thomas Waldrom, Phil Dowson.

...

Whilst on the fringes of the squad would be players such as Alex Goode, Rob Miller, Tom Homer, George Lowe, Anthony Allen, Billy Twelvetrees, George Ford, Freddie Burns, Richard Wigglesworth, Nathan Catt, Tom Youngs, Rupert Harden, Tom Palmer, Tom Johnson, Matt Kvesic, Luke Wallace and Jamie Gibson.

...

There are notable inclusions such as...

Danny Cipriani - I would pick Cipriani ahead of Ford and Burns, simply because he has more experience and can provide the x-factor and game control at the highest level, whereas Ford and Burns are still developing and exposure to international level too soon may not be the best option.

Steffon Armitage - Due to the injuries of Wood and Croft, our back row resources are seriously depleted, Armitage is in the form of his life for Toulon, and although Toulon may need him for the Top 14 run in, I have a feeling England will need him more.

Wade, May, Joseph, Thomas, George, Garvey, Launchberry and Fearns are all young talented players who have been in magnificent form this season and thoroughly deserve call ups to the main squad. Whilst players such as Mullan, Attwood, Paice, Robson, Attwood and Benjamin have been on the fringes for a while, and also deserve a chance at the highest level. I personally feel Benjamin could be a very special player.

Starting XV

15. Foden
14. Ashton
13. Tuilagi
12. Barritt
11. Benjamin
10. Flood
09. Youngs
08. Morgan
07. Robshaw
06. Fearns
05. Parling
04. Botha
03. Cole
02. Hartley
01. Corbisiero

16. Marler
17. George
18. Attwood
19. Armitage
20. Care
21. Farrell
22. Brown/May

Midweek XV

15. Brown/May
14. Strettle
13. Joseph
12. Turner-Hall
11. Wade
10. Cipriani
09. Dickson/Dickson
08. Waldrom
07. Dowson
06. Launchberry
05. Robson
04. Garvey
03. Thomas
02. Paice/Mears
01. Mullan

Thoughts?

If England take Armitage they he needs to start so i would move Robshaw across to 6 and have someone that covers 6 and 8 on the bench that way morgan can get subbed off after 50/60 minutes.

I know its risky but i would like to see England pick Wade in the test team. Yes their are questions marks about his defense but he is a try scoring machine

There are no question marks over Wade's defence from people who have seen him play! He is as solid there as any other option we have.

As for the OP, Armitage can't play the 1st test as he will still be with Toulon, but other than that I'd be happy-ish to see him tour. Kind of makes the whole "if you go to France we won't pick you" statement a blatant lie though.

Not a bleeding chance am I going to be happy with Cips touring though. Not on form, hasn't proven his personality issues are solved, not proven that he is up to playing for England again, a good attacker but no better IMO than Burns and worse at game management which is more important in a 10. Not a great defender, but we can account for that. But basically, until he can prove he is back to his best form, we have at least 3-4 and probably more better options than him

if Prickriani goes I shall hope that he gets steamrollered by a rampaging bok in the first 2 mins.

The only way I would entertain picking him is
A) pre match entertainment, he could dance on the pitch and people could laugh at him, or
B) he had got visibly better at the Rebels and had earned a measure of respect for his hard working ethos and the changes he made to his flawed game

From what I saw of Cipriani in the S15 earlier in the season he still can't tackle. He was moved out to the right wing in defense and his one attempt of a tackle I saw was just more or less his patting the opposition player on the backside as he ran past - Cips didn't even leave his feet in the attempt to stop the player.

Burns would be my 3rd choice 10. Cipriani has plenty to prove to me both in defensive ability and attitude before he is considered for the national squad.

Damage 13 funny you talk about Cipriani dancing. Reminds me of this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INTuOefPuAY


I would prefer A.Allen to JTH. JTH is similar to Brad Barritt but not as good.

George Lowe instead of Jonathan Joseph personally.


4 scrum halves seriously?

My fly halves would be Flood,Farrell and Burns.

Cipriani instead of Farrell? Absolutely farcical.

Would select Allen above JTH and would also take Lowe before Joseph on current form as the back up 13 to Tuilagi, only 3 scrum half's (so no Karl Dickson), PDV before Matt Stevens or Henry Thomas. Not convinced that Robson has what it takes for international rugby and would probably stick with Palmer for now. Injuries are really starting show in the backrow.

I did like your back 3 options and agree that Benjamin could be very good. From the few times I've seen him play I like the fact that although he is a big guy who can run at players he also picks good running lines. Not seen enough of him yet to comment on his defense but I think it's save to say the Tigers wouldn't have been interested in him if it was iffy.

Beshocked i didn't have Cipriani ahead of Farrell, i had both of them in there. I still reckon Cipriani could still emerge as our first choice fly half, yes his defence is still questionable. However he is our best passing 10, our best tactical kicking 10 and has the ability to take on the defence with his pace and opens up space out wide for others.

Burns is built in a similar mould, however he is lightweight and equally as woeful in defence as Cipriani. Whilst Ford simply does not have anywhere near enough experience at premiership/heineken cup level, and picking Hodgson would also be a step back in the wrong direction.

I think Turner-Hall has really come on this season and reckon he will keep Allen out of the squad for now.

B91212 why do you rate Paul Doran-Jones? whenever I have seen and assessed him play he has been nothing more than a poor man's Tim Payne, and due to the fact I personally think Payne was one of the worst rugby players to put on an international jersey I clearly don't rate Doran-Jones too highly - he's not a great scrummager, he gives away loads of penalties and he's not particularly effective in the loose.

robshaw you would have Cipriani ahead of Farrell. You put Cipriani in your mid week dream team.

Best tactical kicking 10? I would definitely debate that.

Cipriani has a lot to prove. I would prefer Ford to Cipriani as things stand.

Cipriani must sort his head out.

Hodgson is still one of the best club no 10s and he would give Cipriani a masterclass. Particularly playing against his old club.

I'm a Saints fan so I have bias towards PDJ but I think he is better bench option than Stevens who can be very poor in the scrum, especially on the LH side. His scrumaging in the AP is to a decent standard and he has started games this season at 1 and 3 although it is yet to be seen how he would do at 1 in an international if called upon from the bench.

His workrate in the loose is one of the reasons the Saints fans rate him so highly and although he is not anywhere near the same standard as Cole he has a similar playing style. He has been known for giving pens away but has been better in that regard as the season has progressed and many Saints fan feel he has had a better season than the current first choice TH Mujarti. He would be my bench option in SA and probably the replacement I would pick if Cole was ruled out for any reason (fingers crossed that doesn't happen).

Comparing Doran-Jones to Tim Payne is just plain nasty by the way

First of all Cipriani doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the squad. He has been bl00dy awful recently and the fact the Rebels were willing to terminate his contract early speaks volumes. The fact he has been playing S15 rugby means SA won't have bought into the hype and will realise he's a talented but far too inconsistent FH who would pose no threat to them.

PDJ & Harden deserve to be ahead of Stevens and Thomas. Even Wilson deserves to be ahead of Stevens! I would really llike Wallace to go on the tour. I feel it is vital we start grooming a 7 for the long term. Fat Armitage has been picking up plaudits, but I just don't see him as an international class player.

Barritt deserves to stay first choice 12, but Allen is the in-form IC by a country mile and has to go. I could see one of the specialist wings dropping out to accomodate him in that squad. I'd also be surprised if Goode doesn't make it. There is no doubt Johnny May is an exceptional talent, but he is too inexperienced to be an international full back at the moment. He'd be far better considered as a wing for the squad.

B91212 as a Saracens fan I agree. Stevens has gone completely off the boil. He's in appalling form at the moment. Badly need someone to stop him from giving away so many penalties.

I like fat Armitage. Think he needs to be back in the England squad.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Allen is the form IC by a country mile but he's not doing badly at all - would take him as the 2nd 12 after BB.

HKC agree about Goode.

beshocked wrote:robshaw you would have Cipriani ahead of Farrell. You put Cipriani in your mid week dream team.
.

Probably because he has Farrell on the bench for the test team, so he is rating them as Flood/Farrell/Cipriani.


Overall, little I can strongly argue about with the OPs original squad, except for Cipriani. Selecting him because of things he did in 2008 sends out the completely wrong message to potential squad members.

I agree that Barritt needs to remain the starting 12. He had a good 6Ns so doesn't deserve to lose his spot. But on form Allen is playing better at the moment. He also offers more in attack (but a bit less in defence), so needs to be on tour.

The problem with Armitage is that he'll go awol as soon as he goes near a Braai

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:robshaw you would have Cipriani ahead of Farrell. You put Cipriani in your mid week dream team.
.

Probably because he has Farrell on the bench for the test team, so he is rating them as Flood/Farrell/Cipriani.


Overall, little I can strongly argue about with the OPs original squad, except for Cipriani. Selecting him because of things he did in 2008 sends out the completely wrong message to potential squad members.

Fair point. I missed that.

Pecking order for me goes - Flood/Farrell,Burns/Hodgson,Ford,Lamb/Myler,Clegg, Heathcote, Cipriani

Edit: oops forgot Hodgson.

This means Cipriani is 10th in line as things stand.

Danny Cipriani - I would pick Cipriani ahead of Ford and Burns, simply because he has more experience and can provide the x-factor and game control at the highest level, whereas Ford and Burns are still developing and exposure to international level too soon may not be the best option.

Whoever the third choice 10 is will only play mid week games so why would you hide a young lad with potential, like Burns, from mid week action when he's already played for the Saxons. I think that Ford should be given a pre season with Tigers to bulk up and get ready for next year so agree with his non-selection.

I'd be tempted to take either Alex Goode or Twelvetrees as a benching mid week option. They can both cover several positions including 10 which would be handy as it would mean the back up test 10 wouldn't have to get splinters with the mid week team.

beshocked wrote:

I like fat Armitage. Think he needs to be back in the England squad.

Despite his shape, he's definitely the form English 7, and I think he could cause real problems to SA if taken on tour this summer. Great power and pace, and pretty handy at the breakdown too. Should get a call up.

A backrow of 6. Robshaw 7, Armitage 8. Morgan has got tremendous carrying power, and Robshaw for the hard graft.

bluestonevedder wrote:

beshocked wrote:

I like fat Armitage. Think he needs to be back in the England squad.

Despite his shape, he's definitely the form English 7, and I think he could cause real problems to SA if taken on tour this summer. Great power and pace, and pretty handy at the breakdown too. Should get a call up.

A backrow of 6. Robshaw 7, Armitage 8. Morgan has got tremendous carrying power, and Robshaw for the hard graft.

I like that backrow.

Would be amazed if Cipriani tours with England. He will need to get into the Saxons before the senior squand - I think Lancaster has said as much. The rest of the suggestions above look good although I don't think Lancaster will experiment quite that much.

beshocked wrote:B91212 as a Saracens fan I agree. Stevens has gone completely off the boil. He's in appalling form at the moment. Badly need someone to stop him from giving away so many penalties.

I like fat Armitage. Think he needs to be back in the England squad.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Allen is the form IC by a country mile but he's not doing badly at all - would take him as the 2nd 12 after BB.

HKC agree about Goode.

I've not seen fat Armitage this season but I've always been pretty underwhelmed when seeing him in an England shirt in the past. Still if he is playing as well as others have said then he deserves a chance, although the French play off's would mess around his chances of training with the squad so it's hardly ideal.

Agree that Allen deserves to be the backup 12 and like fkaS says Goode could be a good option for the mid-week side as a utility 10/15 back (and maybe even 12 in an emergency). Leave Ford at home to have a full pre-season with the Tigers.

Can anyone who has seen much of Cipriani play for the Rebels truly claim he has been playing to a standard that demands international selection? Burns has played far better rugby this season.

To let him waltz back into the EPS after showing so little proof of current form when there are better performing options would make a mockery of the selection principles. Lancaster won't make that mistake and he certainly won't get any argument from Catt.

I have actually changed my mind about Cipriani now, yes he is a wonderfully talented fly half when in the right frame of mind and with a bit of form. However I think a strong pre-season with Sale and the chance to start afresh there, hopefully without controversy, will do him good.

Therefore the fly halves I would take would include Flood, Farrell and Burns. Burns ahead of Ford as he has more premiership experience, has experience with the saxons and has the ability to get a backline firing. However it may be worth taking Hodgson on tour as well, to help guide the youngsters with his experience and provide cover to the test XV if anyone was to get injured, as I think Burns it too raw for test rugby just yet.

Burns needs to put a bit of weight on and improve his tackling if he wants to make it at international level, this may compromise some of his pace, but that is a risk i'm sure he's willing to take if he wants to become a more complete player.

I've not seen fat Armitage this season but I've always been pretty underwhelmed when seeing him in an England shirt in the past

Likewise but having seen him play a couple of times for Toulon he looks industrious in defence and barnstorming in attack. The Boks will be physical so beefing up the backrow with a big ball carrying 7 wouldn't be a bad move.

Listening to Lancaster today on Sky he is set to take as his fly halfs

Charlie Hodgson
Owen Farrell
Freddie Burns

Listening to Lancaster today on Sky he is set to take as his fly halfs

Charlie Hodgson
Owen Farrell
Freddie Burns

Wow, he really does have a personal vendetta against Flood. Seems a tad foolish to omit the in form 10 in the AP though (before Quins fans start Evans isn't in form at the minute though he looked to be coming back to it against Tigers).

Error on my part Sam , I forgot he mentioned Toby Flood. I'm guessing George Ford is doing a full pre-season with Leicester Tigers.

If Mr Flood is included - 4 fly halves sounds a little excessive.

I would be tempted to leave Chargedown Charlie though he's an experienced option in form.

Sam of course I am biased but I think C.Hodgson has been the form fly half in regards to club form this season.

He has masterminded some excellent results. When given the place kicking duties he has also stepped up too.

beshocked wrote:If Mr Flood is included - 4 fly halves sounds a little excessive.

I would be tempted to leave Chargedown Charlie though he's an experienced option in form.

Sam of course I am biased but I think C.Hodgson has been the form fly half in regards to club form this season.

He has masterminded some excellent results. When given the place kicking duties he has also stepped up too.

It does sound a bit much. I suppose the thinking is that Farrell & Flood can cover 12 and Burns 15?

HongKongCherry wrote:

beshocked wrote:If Mr Flood is included - 4 fly halves sounds a little excessive.

I would be tempted to leave Chargedown Charlie though he's an experienced option in form.

Sam of course I am biased but I think C.Hodgson has been the form fly half in regards to club form this season.

He has masterminded some excellent results. When given the place kicking duties he has also stepped up too.

It does sound a bit much. I suppose the thinking is that Farrell & Flood can cover 12 and Burns 15?

I sincerely hope not.

Sam of course I am biased but I think C.Hodgson has been the form fly half in regards to club form this season

In the season as a whole then probably Hodgson is the form 10 as Flood has had injuries and iffy form post RWC but in the last couple of months it's all about Toby. Can't remember if it's 6 or 7 consecutive tbp now (it's a new AP record in any event), including tbp against Quins and Saints away from home. Flood has been on fire and is really driving that backline forward he was outstanding against LI when he bagged a couple and against Saints when he bagged a couple not to mention the MOTM award against Nick Evans and Quins at the Stoop.

Correct me if i'm wrong but isnt Farrelll supposed to be the way forward? He looks like a decent player and a match winner in the future why would England bring back Flood at this point ? Farrell is a better kicker from what i saw in the 6N .What England need is a creative inside center like Greenwood then You have yourself a combo much like the good old jonny greenwood catt 10 12 13 .

At the moment Brad Barritt is not the way forward for England imo he's too one dimensional and you already have the much more effective Tuilagi for that .

I agree Sam. Overall Charlie has been the best 10 over the season yet Toby has been on a hot streak recently.

Looking forward to the likely Leicester vs Saracens semi final playoff clash but also dreading it. I think revenge for the last WR game will certainly be on Leicester's mind.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Listening to Lancaster today on Sky he is set to take as his fly halfs

Charlie Hodgson
Owen Farrell
Freddie Burns

Wow, he really does have a personal vendetta against Flood. Seems a tad foolish to omit the in form 10 in the AP though (before Quins fans start Evans isn't in form at the minute though he looked to be coming back to it against Tigers).

No argument from me there. Flood's form is great and Evans has had a rare off few months prior to the Tigers match

I cannot see Dani Cipriani making the squad at all. Stewart Lancaster is not like the other coaches that England have had since 2003. he does not pick players on their reputations. No, any player that now wants to play for England first of all has too earn a call to the team. He has to prove that he is worthy, of playing for England.

I think Hodson will be the 3rd fly hall, but would like to see Burns get a chance maybe in the mid week team. How is Gaskell playing these days?

I am looking forward to the anouncement of the squad. any one Know when that will be?

Bullsbok,

Farrell has no creativity - its all boot.

Barritt has become our defensive captain, and has steel going forward.

Now have Flood pulling the strings using Barrit at the rights times and spreading it wide when required it will work much better.

I'm like a broken record...

We should play either-

Flood Barritt Lowe/JJ/Trinder
or

Farrell Allen Tuilagi.

NOT Farrell Barritt Tuilagi, preferably, but that is what we will start with

GeordieFalcon wrote:Bullsbok,

Farrell has no creativity - its all boot.

Barritt has become our defensive captain, and has steel going forward.

Now have Flood pulling the strings using Barrit at the rights times and spreading it wide when required it will work much better.

I agree. Farrell has extremely done well considering Bullsbok but he has the potential to be our equivalent of Monye Steyn. That's why most England fans want to see Flood restored to the number 10 shirt for the summer tests in SA.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I've not seen fat Armitage this season but I've always been pretty underwhelmed when seeing him in an England shirt in the past

Likewise but having seen him play a couple of times for Toulon he looks industrious in defence and barnstorming in attack. The Boks will be physical so beefing up the backrow with a big ball carrying 7 wouldn't be a bad move.

Perhaps yet another player who has benefited from playing abroad.

I dont think Armitage got a fair crack at the whip to be fair...he barely got much gametime, and was always consistantly excellent for irish.

He is consistantly excellent for Toulon now...and is a must to tour...especially losing Croft and Wood.

6 Robshaw
7 Armitage
8 Morgan

would really take the game to the Boks...and theres some actual skill there aswell as power and aggression

B91212 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Bullsbok,

Farrell has no creativity - its all boot.

Barritt has become our defensive captain, and has steel going forward.

Now have Flood pulling the strings using Barrit at the rights times and spreading it wide when required it will work much better.

I agree. Farrell has extremely done well considering Bullsbok but he has the potential to be our equivalent of Monye Steyn. That's why most England fans want to see Flood restored to the number 10 shirt for the summer tests in SA.

People knock Morne Steyn but the facts are facts.He broke all of Dan Carters records in one season theres no denying he's a match winner. If Farrell has the potential to be a match winner like Steyn he should start.England need to stop chopping and changing the flyhalf and instead concentrate on players around him .You cant really play Barritt and Tuilagi together and expect the backline to flow .They both dont pass its that simple

With the injuries etc...i'd like to see:

1 Corbs
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Garvey
5 Parling / Robson (Ive been told Robson is as good )
6 Robshaw
7 Armitage
8 Morgan

9 Dickson
10 Flood
11 Strettle
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

Fearns, Gray, Lowe, Marler, PDJ, Twelvetrees, Brown...etc bench

MidWeek Team

1 Mullan
2 Youngs / George
3 Henry Thomas (Sale Prop)
4 Attwood
5 Launchbury
6 Guest
7 Kvesic
8 Easter

9 Spencer
10 Burns
11 Monye
12 Allen
13 Trinder
14 Wade
15 May

As much as id like to see may and Wade in the Test side or bench...i think its probably right to put them in the midweek team.

I forgot about JJ aswell.....

Really? May at 15 over Brown? No offence to May but surely Brown has earned at least the midweek 15 berth?

Brown on the bench for the test team getting gametime...he's a class player...and his huge boot in SA is gonna be valuable aswell...

But is he a bench player? I'd much rather play him at the midweek 15 and maybe give him 1 test if it looks on and he continues to impress. May on the first team bench as he is a good bench player

Players I wouldn't have in the squad:

- Stevens (tried and exposed at both LH and TH)
- JTH (no more than a decent club player who doesn't have the physcial presence to play the type of physical game he aspires to at international level)
- Jonny May (seems to have badly lost his form recently)

Players I would have in the squad:

- At least one of Trinder and Joseph
- Twelvetrees (let's take a look, England need a distributing option at 12)
- Wade (he may not be able to defend at international level, but this is a good opportunity to find out)
- Miller (been brilliant, if we don't want 3 FBs I'd have him ahead of Brown because of the extra pace)
- Launchbury, Gibson, Fearns (a potential long-term backrow combination)

It will be interesting to see if Garvey tours. I don't think the England management are convinced by him.

Bullsbok wrote:England need to stop chopping and changing the flyhalf and instead concentrate on players around him .You cant really play Barritt and Tuilagi together and expect the backline to flow .They both dont pass its that simple

I think the Farrell, Barritt, Tuilagi combination is on borrowed time. Any or all of them could change over the next 12 months.

I am of course biased, but I think if Brown doesn't tour it makes a complete mockery of notion of picking on form - if you can play as well as Brown has all year with his skills and especially after perceived changes in attitude and targeting specific weaknesses and not get picked, then what's the point in young players trying?

Mike Brown has done a great job, and become one of the best club fullbacks around. I think he's virtually certain to tour.

However, England should be selecting on the basis of who has the best chance of being a world class fullback in 2-3 years time, and I'd say that is Miller. If we don't need 3 specialist FBs (and I don't think we do) then it would be Brown who drops out for me.