Rafa v The Hypocrites

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 7:06 am

"Is there anyone left still buying the 'humble champion' act?" Quips one of our regular contributors, when talking about the much maligned Nadal. Worryingly this is from one of our more cerebral members - who can't even see the irony in that statement

It's great to see that the magnificent hypocrisy on these boards, but I think it's time it was challenged

When (admittedly in the past) Roger has actually moaned about players (and usually when they've beaten him) this was OK. "Roger giving good advise" was one comment "At least Roger talks honestly in press conferences rather than pretending he doesn't understand the questions, like a certain Spaniard" was the other (I paraphrase of course).

Even at last years O2, Roger was suggesting that his rivals need to manage their schedules better (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/8913499/ATP-World-Tour-Finals-2011-Roger-Federer-has-health-warning-for-rivals-as-he-cruises-past-Mardy-Fish.html) - in a hilarious rush of blood to the head as he pointed out how fit he was, compared to the others

Only to, er, have an injury leading up to the Australian Open Rolling Eyes

)

This is of course was the cumulating of his non-support for the schedule reduction, suggested by his three rivals. Even if Roger and we disagree with a reduction (and I do too) it was amazing how anxious the great Swiss was emphasise that he totally disagreed.

Personally, I couldn't care less, both are great and McEnroe (my all time favourite) was far more 'outspoken'. That is not the issue. For instance I prefer Roger's Tennis to Rafa's any day of the week (for those who tirelessly assume that I'm some kind of Roger hater)

The issue is, why is it OK for Roger to speak his mind but not Rafa, given that they've both got enough Slams to be allowed to speak their minds?

by bogbrush Fri 11 May 2012, 7:14 am

Since its directed at me, let me reply.

I have no problem with truthful comment, as you say my criticism is of this humble champion / modest warrior act that's been fed to us for years.

Federer has always been the same. Nadal has an act. Rafa IS the hypocrite. That's the difference.

by Guest Fri 11 May 2012, 9:03 am

There seems to be a lot of back-biting in regards to how the defeat and comments made by Nadal has been somewhat strange.

As we are making comparisons and other posters have asked for other players to be included in points made.

Federer has had moments where some of his comments after a defeat have been bordering pathetic. Nadal's comments were pathetic. Even Murray and Djokovic have had moments of making pathetic comments following a defeat.

Let's look at why Nadal has been slammed. All players in tournament have had to make adjustments to the surface. Nadal is more or less taking his ball home and to actually make 'threats' of non-participation in events because they have decided to be radical in their surface preference in terms of blue clay. The surface is still clay. It is not like they have made it a hardcourt now. Look at RG last year. The surface had quickened up and they changed the balls. I didn't hear Nadal threatening non-participation. I would like to put Rafa's comments down to frustration as the match was not a classic. Djokovic has also complained about the surface, but least he hasn't threatened non-participation.

What has been overlooked for me is that this has shown a chink in the Nadal armour in terms of his mentality. I don't think it was just the surface that got under his skin, but also Verdasco slowing the match down to beyond belief. Verdasco played Nadal at his own game and won. This may give hope to the rest of the field who are not Djokovic.

by Josiah Maiestas Fri 11 May 2012, 9:55 am

Nadal the humble bull who never complains they said, Federer who cries when things don't go his way they said, Nadal who can adapt to any conditions they said. The best response to that is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FUyu3csPq0&feature=related

by Born Slippy Fri 11 May 2012, 9:56 am

I believe that Djokovic has also threatened non-participation. He spent most of the bits of the wawrinka match I saw slipping, sliding and generally trying not to fall over. Nearly every player yesterday expressed unhappiness with the courts. Gasquet barely even bothered to try and move. It is clear that there is a major problem and that the courts are not properly playable. In those circumstances, it is understandable that rafa said something has to be done. If they try and make the players play on the same surface next year, I have no doubt there will be a lot of players who decide not to play.

by LuvSports! Fri 11 May 2012, 10:03 am

i think they may stick with it but just improve the quality of it.

by bogbrush Fri 11 May 2012, 10:14 am

It's understandable that Nadal complains but:

- it's not understandable that this is the same person as the humble warrior, who hopes only to do his best and maybe will get the win, no? The mask slipped a while back.

- it's silly to make public moans like this when as #2 he has all the opportunity in the World to talk to the organisers in private and exert mature influence. It's like how he flounced off the players Council after not getting his way on two year ranking and reduced workload.

As for Federer, he's often blunt after defeats but I missed the "pathetic" comments. What were they? Certainly comments about Murrays style after Dubai 2008 became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up.

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 10:26 am

bogbrush wrote:Certainly comments about Murray's style after Dubai 2008 became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up.

Amazing!! Nobody now ( or wildly did at the time) disagree's with Roger's comment. Murray wasn't going to win owt' just "waiting for errors" and his game altered enormously in the summer of that year - hence his first Masters victory and first wins over Nole and Nadal etc.

It wasn't what Roger said - it was that apparently he was quite right to say it, because he's Roger and allowed to say anything. It's always fine because it's Roger!!!!! is the only conclusion we can draw from this

If this is the wrong conclusion why are equally outrageous 'moaning' comments which will also no doubt "became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up" - seen as totlally unacceptable?

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 10:29 am

Did Federer really say "Murray wasn't going to win owt"?

by Josiah Maiestas Fri 11 May 2012, 10:34 am

If this is the wrong conclusion why are equally outrageous 'moaning' comments which will also no doubt "became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up" - seen as totlally unacceptable?

RF criticised the opponent's game to spice up rivalry.

Nadal blames the surface for losing shows he's thrown his toys out the pram.

Two very different things.

Happy to help.

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 10:44 am

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
If this is the wrong conclusion why are equally outrageous 'moaning' comments which will also no doubt "became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up" - seen as totlally unacceptable?
RF criticised the opponent's game to spice up rivalry.

Nadal blames the surface for losing shows he's thrown his toys out the pram.

Two very different things.

Happy to help.

Glad we've cleared that up. Interesting that abuse of a rival is more honorouble than providing a critique of a court - but never mind Doh

We'd be here all day, if we went through some of Roger's critical comments directed away from the players - wasn't he having a go at the slow US courts last year, albeit in a 'nicer' way than Rafa's done

You Fed fans command zero respect, due to your constant 'head in the sand' inability to see that the of abuse Nadal, at every turn for being as outspoken as the GOAT, makes you look laughable

by LuvSports! Fri 11 May 2012, 10:52 am

i do think you have a point banbrotam.

Though i feel federer complains less than rafa it doesn't mean he is immune from it and criticism.

I am a die hard feds fan but now and again i have questioned some of his throw away comments such as his interview post 2011 us open, which i think lacked class and left me Headscratch

and thinking why did he say that? Bit harsh no?

by Josiah Maiestas Fri 11 May 2012, 10:58 am

banbrotam wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:
If this is the wrong conclusion why are equally outrageous 'moaning' comments which will also no doubt "became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up" - seen as totlally unacceptable?
RF criticised the opponent's game to spice up rivalry.

Nadal blames the surface for losing shows he's thrown his toys out the pram.

Two very different things.

Happy to help.

Glad we've cleared that up. Interesting that abuse of a rival is more honorouble than providing a critique of a court - but never mind

We'd be here all day, if we went through some of Roger's critical comments directed away from the players - wasn't he having a go at the slow US courts last year, albeit in a 'nicer' way than Rafa's done

You Fed fans command zero respect, due to your constant 'head in the sand' inability to see that the of abuse Nadal, at every turn for being as outspoken as the GOAT, makes you look laughable

I admit I hate Rafa and his hypocriticality, always have done. Doesn't make someone a Fedtard just because they hate some other players. I also hated Roddick despite Federer always beating him in the slams, cause his attitude and predictability turned me off. You have the thinking that if you hate Rafa it's only because Federer was losing to him in most of the big matches. Well Fed has lost several big matches to Djokovic and I don't hate him for it.

by LuvSports! Fri 11 May 2012, 11:01 am

15-15

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 11:06 am

I suppose the only way for some Murray fans to be part of the conversation is by slating Federer, rather sad really.

by CaledonianCraig Fri 11 May 2012, 11:12 am

The point is:- Was it Federer or Murray fans who leapt gleefully in to slate Nadal's comments? Yet Federer and probably EVERY other player at some time or another has made a comment that shines them in a bad light so really none of us are in a position to throw stones at Nadal are we?

by bogbrush Fri 11 May 2012, 11:13 am

banbrotam wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Certainly comments about Murray's style after Dubai 2008 became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up.

Amazing!! Nobody now ( or wildly did at the time) disagree's with Roger's comment. Murray wasn't going to win owt' just "waiting for errors" and his game altered enormously in the summer of that year - hence his first Masters victory and first wins over Nole and Nadal etc.

It wasn't what Roger said - it was that apparently he was quite right to say it, because he's Roger and allowed to say anything. It's always fine because it's Roger!!!!! is the only conclusion we can draw from this

If this is the wrong conclusion why are equally outrageous 'moaning' comments which will also no doubt "became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up" - seen as totlally unacceptable?

It was right because it was right. If he'd been wrong he'd have been right to be honest about being an idiot.

At the time let me remind you that people accused him of being wrong (because Murray had been good enough to beat him) and sour because he was only saying it because he had lost. Actually it turned out he was saying it because it was the truth.

Contrast this to the standard Nadal garbage where he promises to try 100% because he's got a really tough game against a cr@p player, no?

Nadal can say what he likes about the clay, that's cool, but can we just have a break from the humble warrior thing when what now emerges is that he behaves like a loud child when it doesn't get it's way?

by Born Slippy Fri 11 May 2012, 11:27 am

Without wishing to get into a 4 year old argument, Fed's comment was accurate as an overall statement. Murray did (and unfortunately still does) need to be more aggressive on occasions. However, in that particular match Murray was dominant behind his first serve and came up with an array of superb shots, both on the counter and on first strike. For Federer to effectively say that all Murray had done was bunt the ball back was a complete nonsense and just smacked of him being a poor loser.

by Born Slippy Fri 11 May 2012, 11:29 am

Have to say I don't buy the humble warrior act either but its clearly just a PR thing. Never really seen why it bothers anyone.

by lags72 Fri 11 May 2012, 11:31 am

banbotram - I'm intrigued, perplexed even, by your stance on this. Not least because many of the posts I've seen from you both here and on the old 606 seem very sensible and well reasoned.

In your main article you say "I prefer Roger's tennis to Rafa's any day of the week"

Whilst I won't assume from this that you necessarily have posters of Federer on your bedroom wall, it would be safe to extrapolate from the comment I've quoted that you are by definition - even if in pure tennis terms - a Federer fan.

And yet later in this same thread you introduce a very unpleasant note to the debate, clearly aimed at certain posters who have been giving their views on Rafa's outspoken criticism of the blue clay and court conditions - as is their right.

"You Fed fans command zero respect, due to your constant 'head in the sand' inability to see that the of abuse Nadal, at every turn for being as outspoken as the GOAT, makes you look laughable"

So I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here - or is it just that you were looking for an opportunity to deliberately offend and label other posters by personalising the debate in saying that they 'command zero respect' (merely for expressing their views).

Would you consider retracting that particular statement ?

by Guest Fri 11 May 2012, 11:42 am

I can remember Roger not giving Melzer any credit when he lost to him at Monte Carlo I think. More or less criticised him for the shanks alone. Also was critical of Djokovic. I haven't any beef about his comments around Andy. He has more or less been proven right. Thing is players get frustrated. It happens. Sometimes players can shrug off little niggles in matches that annoys them and other times they can't. I can remember one match I had blaming a bit of old stuck in chewing gum on the court for losing!

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 12:14 pm

reckoner wrote:I suppose the only way for some Murray fans to be part of the conversation is by slating Federer, rather sad really.

It's lazy comments time. I pointed out earlier - that my beef is not at Roger (who remains one of my most 5 most favourite players of all time) but at those who defend him and condemn others for the same 'crime'

Let me make it more clear, that I personally have no issue with our sporting stars being human and giving us 'off court' entertainment (again I cite that Mac is my all time favourite - do you not read? Erm

) and hence find it amusing that there are Fed fans that are so full of dislike for Nadal, it blinds them to their own hero

In order to do this, Fed foibles have to be pointed out

I'm sorry if you then jump to the conclusion, like a Daily Sport reader, that this means I'm slating him. Personally, I'd suggest reading a whole article and the associated comments before diving in - it's often best to look before you leap

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 12:23 pm

lags72 wrote:banbotram - I'm intrigued, perplexed even, by your stance on this. Not least because many of the posts I've seen from you both here and on the old 606 seem very sensible and well reasoned.

In your main article you say "I prefer Roger's tennis to Rafa's any day of the week"

Whilst I won't assume from this that you necessarily have posters of Federer on your bedroom wall, it would be safe to extrapolate from the comment I've quoted that you are by definition - even if in pure tennis terms - a Federer fan.

And yet later in this same thread you introduce a very unpleasant note to the debate, clearly aimed at certain posters who have been giving their views on Rafa's outspoken criticism of the blue clay and court conditions - as is their right.

"You Fed fans command zero respect, due to your constant 'head in the sand' inability to see that the of abuse Nadal, at every turn for being as outspoken as the GOAT, makes you look laughable"

So I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here - or is it just that you were looking for an opportunity to deliberately offend and label other posters by personalising the debate in saying that they 'command zero respect' (merely for expressing their views).

Would you consider retracting that particular statement ?

I'm happy to clarify. I'm a Fed fan when it comes to his all time status and playing Nadal - he's great to watch and I don't think it's correct that Nadal should be the one to challenge his GOAT status (but then again neither do I think it's fair that Lendl got more slams than Mac - such is life!!)

What I should have said about the Fed fans is put, "You 'sycophantic' Fed fans" at is those, unconditionally slaves to the love for Fed, that for me often look daft. Apologies for the lack of clarification. Let me clarify a bit more - it is those that will defend Roger 9 times out of 10, when the facts make it impossible for that stance to be correct (i.e. blind love)

In the interests of balance they also tend to be the best about talking about other Tennis matters

But of course are the most abusive towards Nadal

I knew as soon as I hit the send button, that this article would trigger the usual daft assumptions, but your post is a good one and I thank you pointing out my error

by Guest Fri 11 May 2012, 12:40 pm

It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay? Rolling Eyes

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 12:41 pm

banbrotam wrote:
reckoner wrote:I suppose the only way for some Murray fans to be part of the conversation is by slating Federer, rather sad really.

It's lazy comments time. I pointed out earlier - that my beef is not at Roger (who remains one of my most 5 most favourite players of all time) but at those who defend him and condemn others for the same 'crime'

Let me make it more clear, that I personally have no issue with our sporting stars being human and giving us 'off court' entertainment (again I cite that Mac is my all time favourite - do you not read? ) and hence find it amusing that there are Fed fans that are so full of dislike for Nadal, it blinds them to their own hero

In order to do this, Fed foibles have to be pointed out

I'm sorry if you then jump to the conclusion, like a Daily Sport reader, that this means I'm slating him. Personally, I'd suggest reading a whole article and the associated comments before diving in - it's often best to look before you leap

That's how your badly written post comes over - you've hardly been clear when it comes to expressing yourself. Perhaps more time considering what you would like to say before posting would lessen the need for the million "clarifications" you've posted, rather than blaming the reader?

by lydian Fri 11 May 2012, 12:43 pm

Agree LK...when Nadal talks everything is dissected in minute detail and extrapolation. Just confirms the draw he is in the sport really...

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 12:44 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay?

Well, this is a player that is held up as an example of humility and sportsmanship. So when his behaviour doesn't tally with this image you can hardly blame people for taking exception. If it is so boring, why not post an article on another topic - it's a free forum!

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 12:46 pm

lydian wrote:Agree LK...when Nadal talks everything is dissected in minute detail and extrapolation. Just confirms the draw he is in the sport really...

lydian in fairness this happens when Fed, Murray practically any tennis player says something other than the usual vanilla PR statement.

by Guest Fri 11 May 2012, 12:46 pm

reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay?

Well, this is a player that is held up as an example of humility and sportsmanship. So when his behaviour doesn't tally with this image you can hardly blame people for taking exception. If it is so boring, why not post an article on another topic - it's a free forum!

Wow so let's hang him for one comment eh?

Thought provoking.

I might just join another forum based on the logic and display of intellect on show Rolling Eyes

by lags72 Fri 11 May 2012, 12:47 pm

banbrotram - it was my first contribution to this particular thread so I wasn't actually speaking as one who might, or might not, have been offended.

My post was prompted rather by what I saw as an unwelcome tone being introduced to the thread by needlessly 'personalising' things in relation to other posters, rather than sticking to the fundamental debate on the rights or wrongs of Rafa's remarks, and the fallout they have generated within the tennis world.

The tone and 'label' used just struck me as reminiscent of the latter days of the old 606 where personal - and very often - childish comments began to dominate the forum far more than tennis-related matters. I for one tend to take far less notice of the substance of what a poster says once they decide to include (potentially) offensive remarks aimed gratuitously at others, and in that sense I see such remarks as counter-productive.

All that said, I am much happier with your clarification than I was with the original post

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 12:52 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay?

Well, this is a player that is held up as an example of humility and sportsmanship. So when his behaviour doesn't tally with this image you can hardly blame people for taking exception. If it is so boring, why not post an article on another topic - it's a free forum!

Wow so let's hang him for one comment eh?

Thought provoking.

I might just join another forum based on the logic and display of intellect on show

Well that's a bit disingenuous. It's not just one comment but the pattern of behaviour that goes with it as you probably well know? It's discussed ad infinitum so I'd be surprised if you're unaware.

by time please Fri 11 May 2012, 12:55 pm

reckoner wrote:
lydian wrote:Agree LK...when Nadal talks everything is dissected in minute detail and extrapolation. Just confirms the draw he is in the sport really...

lydian in fairness this happens when Fed, Murray practically any tennis player says something other than the usual vanilla PR statement.

That's absolutely right reckoner - what is a forum for if not to discuss these things in minute detail Wink

Who was it now who said that the worse thing was not being talked about but not being talked about? I had to bold that to make any sense, just shows how it is so easy to sometimes not get someone's drift on the net!

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 12:59 pm

time please wrote:
reckoner wrote:
lydian wrote:Agree LK...when Nadal talks everything is dissected in minute detail and extrapolation. Just confirms the draw he is in the sport really...

lydian in fairness this happens when Fed, Murray practically any tennis player says something other than the usual vanilla PR statement.

That's absolutely right reckoner - what is a forum for if not to discuss these things in minute detail

Who was it now who said that the worse thing was not being talked about but not being talked about? I had to bold that to make any sense, just shows how it is so easy to sometimes not get someone's drift on the net!

I really feel at times there is a group on this forum who just want to censor people they do not agree with - completely defeats the point of a forum but there we are...

by lydian Fri 11 May 2012, 1:02 pm

I actually agree with those comments reckoner and TP...I'm all for open debate, but I think we also recognise that in some quarters when Nadal opens his mouth its often analysed in a negative way much more quickly than others...bar Murray perhaps.

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 1:14 pm

It was like that with Federer on the old 606 - he'd make some innocuous comment and people would be up in arms, queuing up to see who could most wilfully misunderstand what had been said. Compared to that Nadal gets a free ride on these boards, lol.

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 1:56 pm

reckoner wrote:

"That's how your badly written post comes over - you've hardly been clear when it comes to expressing yourself. Perhaps more time considering what you would like to say before posting would lessen the need for the million "clarifications" you've posted, rather than blaming the reader?

"

My article contained the following, place there deliberately so we didn't get away from the point of the article.....

"Personally, I couldn't care less, both are great and McEnroe (my all time favourite) was far more 'outspoken'. That is not the issue. For instance I prefer Roger's Tennis to Rafa's any day of the week (for those who tirelessly assume that I'm some kind of Roger hater)"

I really don't know what more you wanted me to do, to illustrate that I wasn't having a go at Roger. Do you not understand the need to use evidence to make a point?

Hilariously, earlier in this thread you stated "Did Federer really say "Murray wasn't going to win owt"?" Can you tell me who on earth said Federer did??? Are you a red top journalist - who attributes comments to people that weren't made or deliberately misunderstands comments that don't suit?

Otherwise, you have a worrying lack of attention to detail

And please on the old version of 606 - Nadal still got as much abuse as Fed. As someone who as a Murray fan and has no great love for Rafa (great admiration though - you should try it) Nadal fans are far more kinder about Roger than the other way around. Before you misunderstand this comment as well!! Please note, this does not mean that there are no abusive Rafa fans

The vitriol directed to Nadal is so full of utter contempt and hate, plus often racial abuse (references to his inability to speak clearly) that you surely can't agree with it?

It's one of the reasons I rarely venture on these boards. Believe me a black man, I can take the rough with the smooth and have a very caustic tongue myself. But 'legendkillarv2' has it correct it's time to go back to the cerebral quality of MTL, where the quality of Tennis is debated and abusing of players is a rarity.

It's been commented that message boards are becoming the last place of the bigoted, bullys etc. Sadly on here, I see what they mean

by Guest Fri 11 May 2012, 1:57 pm

reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay?

Well, this is a player that is held up as an example of humility and sportsmanship. So when his behaviour doesn't tally with this image you can hardly blame people for taking exception. If it is so boring, why not post an article on another topic - it's a free forum!

Wow so let's hang him for one comment eh?

Thought provoking.

I might just join another forum based on the logic and display of intellect on show

Well that's a bit disingenuous. It's not just one comment but the pattern of behaviour that goes with it as you probably well know? It's discussed ad infinitum so I'd be surprised if you're unaware.

How is that disingenuous? It was a poor day for Rafa. Poor game followed by poor comments. Does it require a real character assassination?

How about we all look at what everyone says and root out those that are genuine and those who are a false representation? Then that way I think everyone would be a t0sser in my book.

For me there are bigger issues in tennis than just oh wait for Rafa to fluff his lines game that most posters play on here. That in itself is pathetic.

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 2:00 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The point is:- Was it Federer or Murray fans who leapt gleefully in to slate Nadal's comments? Yet Federer and probably EVERY other player at some time or another has made a comment that shines them in a bad light so really none of us are in a position to throw stones at Nadal are we?

CC, you continue to be an optimistic, but I have say actually naive fool on these boards Wink

You should know by now that it's perfectly acceptable for Roger to do or say anything. I swear if he robbed a bank - some on these boards would say it was the mental breakdown caused by having to put up with Nadal's grinding game that tipped over the edge

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 2:06 pm

banbrotam wrote:

Hilariously, earlier in this thread you stated "Did Federer really say "Murray wasn't going to win owt"?" Can you tell me who on earth said Federer did???

banbrotam wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Certainly comments about Murray's style after Dubai 2008 became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up.

Amazing!! Nobody now ( or wildly did at the time) disagree's with Roger's comment. Murray wasn't going to win owt' just "waiting for errors"...

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 2:09 pm

reckoner wrote:
banbrotam wrote:

Hilariously, earlier in this thread you stated "Did Federer really say "Murray wasn't going to win owt"?" Can you tell me who on earth said Federer did???

banbrotam wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Certainly comments about Murray's style after Dubai 2008 became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up.

Amazing!! Nobody now ( or wildly did at the time) disagree's with Roger's comment. Murray wasn't going to win owt' just "waiting for errors"...

The full stop after "comment" is where you're confusion is. If I'd have put a comma in then you'd be correct. In other words the start of the next sentence, which you've quoted is my opinion leading into the reasons why

Trust this is OK

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 2:13 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay?

Well, this is a player that is held up as an example of humility and sportsmanship. So when his behaviour doesn't tally with this image you can hardly blame people for taking exception. If it is so boring, why not post an article on another topic - it's a free forum!

Wow so let's hang him for one comment eh?

Thought provoking.

I might just join another forum based on the logic and display of intellect on show

Well that's a bit disingenuous. It's not just one comment but the pattern of behaviour that goes with it as you probably well know? It's discussed ad infinitum so I'd be surprised if you're unaware.

How is that disingenuous? It was a poor day for Rafa. Poor game followed by poor comments. Does it require a real character assassination?

How about we all look at what everyone says and root out those that are genuine and those who are a false representation? Then that way I think everyone would be a t0sser in my book.

For me there are bigger issues in tennis than just oh wait for Rafa to fluff his lines game that most posters play on here. That in itself is pathetic.

I've made a couple of posts saying Djokovic and Nadal were as bad as each other for their rather pathetic whingeing in Madrid. How is that character assassination exactly?

I was accusing you of being disingenuous because you seem to be saying that Nadal is getting stick based on one comment when there is a whole pattern of unsporting behaviour that people object to.

We are sold this image of Nadal being humble and sporting - I don't buy it, neither do others.

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 2:18 pm

banbrotam wrote:
reckoner wrote:
banbrotam wrote:

Hilariously, earlier in this thread you stated "Did Federer really say "Murray wasn't going to win owt"?" Can you tell me who on earth said Federer did???

banbrotam wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Certainly comments about Murray's style after Dubai 2008 became mainstream received wisdom once everyone else caught up.

Amazing!! Nobody now ( or wildly did at the time) disagree's with Roger's comment. Murray wasn't going to win owt' just "waiting for errors"...

The full stop after "comment" is where you're confusion is. If I'd have put a comma in then you'd be correct. In other words the start of the next sentence, which you've quoted is my opinion leading into the reasons why

Trust this is OK

I'm afraid there is way too much in the way of misplaced punctuation in your posts - as I said before rather than calling me a Daily Sport reader or whatever other insult you came up with above perhaps you should concentrate on writing a bit more clearly?

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 2:19 pm

reckoner wrote:We are sold this image of Nadal being humble and sporting - I don't buy it, neither do others.

Who 'sells' it? The media? If so then Roger gets also gets called this. Or is it more valid with it being Roger?

by banbrotam Fri 11 May 2012, 2:21 pm

reckoner wrote:
I'm afraid there is way too much in the way of misplaced punctuation in your posts - as I said before rather than calling me a Daily Sport reader or whatever other insult you came up with above perhaps you should concentrate on writing a bit more clearly?

Kindly don't get away from the point. Writing correctly is not my strong point - nor is it needed on message boards

It is clear this is your misunderstanding as there is a full stop.

i.e. point made - end sentence - go onto the new point

by Guest Fri 11 May 2012, 2:25 pm

reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay?

Well, this is a player that is held up as an example of humility and sportsmanship. So when his behaviour doesn't tally with this image you can hardly blame people for taking exception. If it is so boring, why not post an article on another topic - it's a free forum!

Wow so let's hang him for one comment eh?

Thought provoking.

I might just join another forum based on the logic and display of intellect on show

Well that's a bit disingenuous. It's not just one comment but the pattern of behaviour that goes with it as you probably well know? It's discussed ad infinitum so I'd be surprised if you're unaware.

How is that disingenuous? It was a poor day for Rafa. Poor game followed by poor comments. Does it require a real character assassination?

How about we all look at what everyone says and root out those that are genuine and those who are a false representation? Then that way I think everyone would be a t0sser in my book.

For me there are bigger issues in tennis than just oh wait for Rafa to fluff his lines game that most posters play on here. That in itself is pathetic.

I've made a couple of posts saying Djokovic and Nadal were as bad as each other for their rather pathetic whingeing in Madrid. How is that character assassination exactly?

I was accusing you of being disingenuous because you seem to be saying that Nadal is getting stick based on one comment when there is a whole pattern of unsporting behaviour that people object to.

We are sold this image of Nadal being humble and sporting - I don't buy it, neither do others.

Are you seriously telling me that this thread and others around this issue has not solely been aimed at Nadal more than Djokovic? I think that is blind ignorance.

Nadal is humble. I have never heard him coming out and putting himself on a pedestal above others. Federer is humble for his achievements in his game. As is Nadal.

The sporting issue is a different kettle of fish. The time abuse thing is beyond repproach for me. Nadal has always been more than generous with his comments on Murray, unlike Federer or Djokovic. The way he handles the press for me is far more 'sporting' than anyone else on the tour for someone of his position.

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 2:32 pm

banbrotam wrote:
reckoner wrote:
I'm afraid there is way too much in the way of misplaced punctuation in your posts - as I said before rather than calling me a Daily Sport reader or whatever other insult you came up with above perhaps you should concentrate on writing a bit more clearly?

Kindly don't get away from the point. Writing correctly is not my strong point - nor is it needed on message boards

It is clear this is your misunderstanding as there is a full stop.

i.e. point made - end sentence - go onto the new point

Erm you're the one that implied I got it wrong remember? "Hilariously"? And it turns out your terrible punctuation was the cause of the misunderstanding, Yet you are quite happy to throw as many insults as you could my way... tell me who is the bully again?

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 2:34 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay?

Well, this is a player that is held up as an example of humility and sportsmanship. So when his behaviour doesn't tally with this image you can hardly blame people for taking exception. If it is so boring, why not post an article on another topic - it's a free forum!

Wow so let's hang him for one comment eh?

Thought provoking.

I might just join another forum based on the logic and display of intellect on show

Well that's a bit disingenuous. It's not just one comment but the pattern of behaviour that goes with it as you probably well know? It's discussed ad infinitum so I'd be surprised if you're unaware.

How is that disingenuous? It was a poor day for Rafa. Poor game followed by poor comments. Does it require a real character assassination?

How about we all look at what everyone says and root out those that are genuine and those who are a false representation? Then that way I think everyone would be a t0sser in my book.

For me there are bigger issues in tennis than just oh wait for Rafa to fluff his lines game that most posters play on here. That in itself is pathetic.

I've made a couple of posts saying Djokovic and Nadal were as bad as each other for their rather pathetic whingeing in Madrid. How is that character assassination exactly?

I was accusing you of being disingenuous because you seem to be saying that Nadal is getting stick based on one comment when there is a whole pattern of unsporting behaviour that people object to.

We are sold this image of Nadal being humble and sporting - I don't buy it, neither do others.

Are you seriously telling me that this thread and others around this issue has not solely been aimed at Nadal more than Djokovic? I think that is blind ignorance.

Nadal is humble. I have never heard him coming out and putting himself on a pedestal above others. Federer is humble for his achievements in his game. As is Nadal.

The sporting issue is a different kettle of fish. The time abuse thing is beyond repproach for me. Nadal has always been more than generous with his comments on Murray, unlike Federer or Djokovic. The way he handles the press for me is far more 'sporting' than anyone else on the tour for someone of his position.

Why on earth should I speak for the whole thread? I've told you what I posted and how it is not a character assassination (spare me).

I've also pointed out where you are being disingenuous since you asked.

You say Nadal is humble - I disagree. His recent actions seem to fit my point of view rather better than yours.

by Josiah Maiestas Fri 11 May 2012, 2:44 pm

Nadal is humble. I have never heard him coming out and putting himself on a pedestal above others

Fake modesty requires some kudos now everyone. There are no misconceptions of his humility as ever.

by Guest Fri 11 May 2012, 3:28 pm

reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay?

Well, this is a player that is held up as an example of humility and sportsmanship. So when his behaviour doesn't tally with this image you can hardly blame people for taking exception. If it is so boring, why not post an article on another topic - it's a free forum!

Wow so let's hang him for one comment eh?

Thought provoking.

I might just join another forum based on the logic and display of intellect on show

Well that's a bit disingenuous. It's not just one comment but the pattern of behaviour that goes with it as you probably well know? It's discussed ad infinitum so I'd be surprised if you're unaware.

How is that disingenuous? It was a poor day for Rafa. Poor game followed by poor comments. Does it require a real character assassination?

How about we all look at what everyone says and root out those that are genuine and those who are a false representation? Then that way I think everyone would be a t0sser in my book.

For me there are bigger issues in tennis than just oh wait for Rafa to fluff his lines game that most posters play on here. That in itself is pathetic.

I've made a couple of posts saying Djokovic and Nadal were as bad as each other for their rather pathetic whingeing in Madrid. How is that character assassination exactly?

I was accusing you of being disingenuous because you seem to be saying that Nadal is getting stick based on one comment when there is a whole pattern of unsporting behaviour that people object to.

We are sold this image of Nadal being humble and sporting - I don't buy it, neither do others.

Are you seriously telling me that this thread and others around this issue has not solely been aimed at Nadal more than Djokovic? I think that is blind ignorance.

Nadal is humble. I have never heard him coming out and putting himself on a pedestal above others. Federer is humble for his achievements in his game. As is Nadal.

The sporting issue is a different kettle of fish. The time abuse thing is beyond repproach for me. Nadal has always been more than generous with his comments on Murray, unlike Federer or Djokovic. The way he handles the press for me is far more 'sporting' than anyone else on the tour for someone of his position.

Why on earth should I speak for the whole thread? I've told you what I posted and how it is not a character assassination (spare me).

I've also pointed out where you are being disingenuous since you asked.

You say Nadal is humble - I disagree. His recent actions seem to fit my point of view rather better than yours.

That sentence completely negates your whole point.

What were you saying earlier. You didn't judge on one action alone Laugh

by reckoner Fri 11 May 2012, 3:31 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:It is just the same cycle repeating itself. Nadal says something and then all of sudden everyone jumps on the bandwagon of bashing the guy. Other players make comments after matches and yet it tends to be forgotten or in some cases accepted as 'Oh he said it and has said other things before thats ok' contradictory to say the least.

It was a poor match in general he was involved in and even one Rafa fan refused to watch the rest of the match as it unfolded. Let's get real here. Are Rafa's comments alone that important that everyone must down tools and just slate him again and then bring in the other reasons we don't like him? It gets boring. You either agree with what he says or you don't. Must we sit through another bashing session just because he dislikes blue clay?

Well, this is a player that is held up as an example of humility and sportsmanship. So when his behaviour doesn't tally with this image you can hardly blame people for taking exception. If it is so boring, why not post an article on another topic - it's a free forum!

Wow so let's hang him for one comment eh?

Thought provoking.

I might just join another forum based on the logic and display of intellect on show

Well that's a bit disingenuous. It's not just one comment but the pattern of behaviour that goes with it as you probably well know? It's discussed ad infinitum so I'd be surprised if you're unaware.

How is that disingenuous? It was a poor day for Rafa. Poor game followed by poor comments. Does it require a real character assassination?

How about we all look at what everyone says and root out those that are genuine and those who are a false representation? Then that way I think everyone would be a t0sser in my book.

For me there are bigger issues in tennis than just oh wait for Rafa to fluff his lines game that most posters play on here. That in itself is pathetic.

I've made a couple of posts saying Djokovic and Nadal were as bad as each other for their rather pathetic whingeing in Madrid. How is that character assassination exactly?

I was accusing you of being disingenuous because you seem to be saying that Nadal is getting stick based on one comment when there is a whole pattern of unsporting behaviour that people object to.

We are sold this image of Nadal being humble and sporting - I don't buy it, neither do others.

Are you seriously telling me that this thread and others around this issue has not solely been aimed at Nadal more than Djokovic? I think that is blind ignorance.

Nadal is humble. I have never heard him coming out and putting himself on a pedestal above others. Federer is humble for his achievements in his game. As is Nadal.

The sporting issue is a different kettle of fish. The time abuse thing is beyond repproach for me. Nadal has always been more than generous with his comments on Murray, unlike Federer or Djokovic. The way he handles the press for me is far more 'sporting' than anyone else on the tour for someone of his position.

Why on earth should I speak for the whole thread? I've told you what I posted and how it is not a character assassination (spare me).

I've also pointed out where you are being disingenuous since you asked.

You say Nadal is humble - I disagree. His recent actions seem to fit my point of view rather better than yours.

That sentence completely negates your whole point.

What were you saying earlier. You didn't judge on one action alone

You're quite right - I should have omitted the word recent! thumbsup

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