Heineken Cup - what should it represent?

Following on from the discussion about proposals to change/leave the HC (https://www.606v2.com/t30808-english-clubs-give-2-year-notice-to-withdraw-from-heinaken-european-cup) I thought a side discussion could take place about what people think the premier European rugby tournament should be about.

Personally I believe all top nations should be represented as a showcase of European rugby and to help grow the game. If other nations improve, e.g. through the Amlin, then they too could have a spot in future. I like the way that the Champions League in football has representation from top leagues even though they are not necessarily the top teams (e.g. Swiss and Belgian teams). I believe this is the way forward for rugby as a closed shop will not be conducive to growing the game (if that is in fact what people want???)

I think it would be a travesty if some nations missed out entirely - I don't think that is the ethos of the tournament. However, this is just my view so what is yours?

This is not an argument about how many each nation should get, that can come later. Rather, this is a discussion about whether the HC should consist of just the best teams in Europe or a representation of ALL top nations.

How do you define a top nation? Are Italy a top nation? Or at least any more of a top nation that say Georgia, Romania or Russia?

For me the HEC should be the top clubs in Europe and the Amlin used as a greater show piece event. Not that any Rabo fans will ever agree to that though, they'd rather see Connacht defending for six games and the two Italian teams taking a hiding each round.

I guess I would class the top nations as the ones currently in (Fr, Eng, Ire, Wal, Scot, Ita). I think that is the system we have now, i.e. to represent all top nations. However, the French and English want a merit based system. I can see both arguments, but would prefer all those nations are guaranteed to be there in some shape or form.

Maybe 'top' is the wrong word, but I don't feel that some nations like Spain are ready yet so wanted to distinguish between the two 'tiers'. If they start doing really well in the Amlin then I don't see why they couldn't be included as a 'top' nation in future.

I'll happily pear down the amount of teams in the ERC as the French and English want once each nation is represented.

So now it is 24 teams as follows:
Eng 6
Fra 6
Ire 3
Wal 3
Sco 2
Ita 2
ERC winning nation +1
Amlin winning nation +1

I would happily switch to 16 teams as follows:
Eng 4
Fra 4
Ire 2
Wal 2
Sco 1
Ita 1
ERC winning nation +1
Amlin winning nation +1

For me having everyone included is the most important thing.

I agree Stag, and would be more than happy with that suggested format.

As long as each six nation country is represented in the competition I have no worries, which is kind of what France want, what does worry me though is that for whatever reason the English R.U want a bigger share of the t.v money which I think is just wrong.

Whats more England and France couldn't complain.

"The Rabo" would be giving up 4 places
England give up 2 places
France give up 2 places

France and England give up one third of their places. Ireland and Wales give up on third of their places. Wales and Scotland would give up half the places.

They win and the Rabo nations can continue to do their thing of qualifying by country. It would mean every single derby match would be massive in the Pro 12 also.

Dowlais - I agree I don't like the idea of England wanting the "bigger half" of the pie.

Stag would you agree that the derby games are already massive in our league, I know most of the Welsh and Irish ones are usually a sell out.

red_stag wrote:I'll happily pear down the amount of teams in the ERC as the French and English want once each nation is represented.

So now it is 24 teams as follows:
Eng 6
Fra 6
Ire 3
Wal 3
Sco 2
Ita 2
ERC winning nation +1
Amlin winning nation +1

I would happily switch to 16 teams as follows:
Eng 4
Fra 4
Ire 2
Wal 2
Sco 1
Ita 1
ERC winning nation +1
Amlin winning nation +1

For me having everyone included is the most important thing.

Stag, are you guys happy enough sitting out though now that you are the third best Ireland team?

Dowlais I wouldn't really. Munster v Leinster is always massive whether its in Thomond or Aviva Stadium but I think that Ulster and Connacht matches haven't reached that level in tersm of hype. They may be sell out matches but they are not "must win fixtures" and I think it would really add something to the league.

Cardiff, Ospreys, Scarlets and Dragons battling for just TWO places
Munster, Ulster, Connacht and Leinster doing the same.
A superb head to head battle between the Scots and same with the Italians.

I think it has the potential to really add to the league. And of course the others are all guaranteed Amlin which could be:

4 Fra
4 Eng
2 Wal
2 Ire
1 Sco
1 Ita
1 Spain
1 Romania

If a Rabo team wins the Heineken Cup their Amlin place can go to another Spanish/Romanian/Georgian/Portuguese/German team.

I think it would work very well.

Clive - there is certainly a risk to Musnter that Ulster+Leinster would claim the ERC places but thats what adds to the excitement I feel. It brings something to the Rabo without destroying its core belief.

Stag's suggestion been there for a while now and it 's still the best I can think of. having everybody included is important, having a stronger challenge cup is as well and not all T14 / AP teams have to participate in those cups anyway which would hopefully open up room for more other nations teams in the future.

Should the HC involve ALL top European nations, or just top teams

The problem in this is the 'top' European nations - who are they?

Sometimes this HC discussion uses the term "European Teams" when they really mean 'those European Teams in the RABO'

The (in my opinion) HC should be the best sides in the three professional European Leagues and any inclusion of the lower level sides should be in the Amlin. A lot of the Rabo fans deride the Amlin as they automatically qualify for the HC every year, but its a good competition and has a fair spread of the European countries involved.

And I would stop the beaten sides of the HC parachuting into the Amlin - your either in one or the other.

Staggy the Amlin layout is somewhat lacking in English/French teams, you've guarenteed every Rabo team a European spot but only two thirds of the English and French teams. That won't go down, remember it's the English and French clubs that are at the heart of the tv revenue and sponsorship deals that generate the money.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Staggy the Amlin layout is somewhat lacking in English/French teams, you've guarenteed every Rabo team a European spot but only two thirds of the English and French teams. That won't go down, remember it's the English and French clubs that are at the heart of the tv revenue and sponsorship deals that generate the money.

The less the better in my opinion, if it becomes a privilege to play the Amlin, french teams will give it a serious go and not play they U23 while struggling in the T14. I dont see the point of a team like Mont de Marsan playing in it next year : we know they will struggle in the T14 and will probably go down so what are they doing in an european competition?
plus its not like the challenge cups represent a big tv revenues anyway, not where I live (you often have to watch them on "regional" tv channels)

The best

red_stag wrote:Dowlais I wouldn't really. Munster v Leinster is always massive whether its in Thomond or Aviva Stadium but I think that Ulster and Connacht matches haven't reached that level in tersm of hype. They may be sell out matches but they are not "must win fixtures" and I think it would really add something to the league.

Cardiff, Ospreys, Scarlets and Dragons battling for just TWO places
Munster, Ulster, Connacht and Leinster doing the same.
A superb head to head battle between the Scots and same with the Italians.

I think it has the potential to really add to the league. And of course the others are all guaranteed Amlin which could be:

4 Fra
4 Eng
2 Wal
2 Ire
1 Sco
1 Ita
1 Spain
1 Romania

If a Rabo team wins the Heineken Cup their Amlin place can go to another Spanish/Romanian/Georgian/Portuguese/German team.

I think it would work very well.

We allready have that though stag, the highest placed Welsh sides go through to the HC and the lowest placed side drops down into the Amlin, with your provinces the IRFU pick who represents them so it might be a little different for you lot.

The less the better in my opinion, if it becomes a privilege to play the Amlin,

Staggy when you say less what you actually mean is less for everyone other than the Celtic nations who you guarentee Amlin rugby. This is despite the majority of the financial support coming from England and France they take the hefty cut (again, as you deal out a fairly chunky cut to their HEC places as well). The teams out of the Amlin this year if that was brought in now would include Gloucester, Wasps (quarter or semi finalists this year I can't remember) and Worcester who let's face it deserve European representation more than the likes of Connacht and the Dragons who go through a season hoping to pick up the odd home win and not to lose by too much away from home.

I do agree on the newly dropping of European places for newly promoted teams though as that really is a bit silly.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

The less the better in my opinion, if it becomes a privilege to play the Amlin,

Staggy when you say less what you actually mean is less for everyone other than the Celtic nations who you guarentee Amlin rugby. This is despite the majority of the financial support coming from England and France they take the hefty cut (again, as you deal out a fairly chunky cut to their HEC places as well). The teams out of the Amlin this year if that was brought in now would include Gloucester, Wasps (quarter or semi finalists this year I can't remember) and Worcester who let's face it deserve European representation more than the likes of Connacht and the Dragons who go through a season hoping to pick up the odd home win and not to lose by too much away from home.

I do agree on the newly dropping of European places for newly promoted teams though as that really is a bit silly.

erm...it wasnt staggy , it was me

there is currently not much money in the amlin so what's the deal anyway. cant speak for the AP but in france, the teams that are at the bottom of the T14 clearly will not complain if they are not involved anymore. if it means overall less teams in the HC am happy to have the remaining rabo teams getting automatic qualification for the AC.

Whocares, I think he's refering to Staggy's second post about the Amlin where he only has 4 French and 4 English. There would then be 4 teams from those countries not in any competition (as there are 12 in their leagues).

I would jsut have the rest of the English and French clubs (8 from each) in the Amlin.

Whocares, I think he's refering to Staggy's second post about the Amlin where he only has 4 French and 4 English. There would then be 4 teams from those countries not in any competition (as there are 12 in their leagues).

I was refering to both and failing to make myself clear Griff, apologies all round.

The Amlin isn't taken very seriously at the moment purely because there is a little too much of clubs playing teams from their own league or weaker foreign teams. The games between English and French sides normally draw a fair crowd. Filtering the weaker Rabo teams in would generate a little more interest and raise the profile of the league as teams that don't normally face off start to play each other.

Sam there are 26 teams between France and England - they cannot all get a European Cup spot. I think 8 teams a piece is very very fair which could be more if they win the Amlin or Heineken Cup.

they cannot all get a European Cup spot

Why not? Every Rabo team gets one and currently every AP and T14 team gets one.

The inclusion of a number of European third tier sides is also largely pointless as they will be slaughtered. Surely it's better to bring in the subsidised third tier tournament (as suggested in the Anglo/French demands) which would allow the winning team to feed into the high competition (Amlin) whilst encouraging a competition where those smaller clubs do more than turn up for a pasting?

red_stag wrote:I'll happily pear down the amount of teams in the ERC as the French and English want once each nation is represented.

So now it is 24 teams as follows:
Eng 6
Fra 6
Ire 3
Wal 3
Sco 2
Ita 2
ERC winning nation +1
Amlin winning nation +1

I would happily switch to 16 teams as follows:
Eng 4
Fra 4
Ire 2
Wal 2
Sco 1
Ita 1
ERC winning nation +1
Amlin winning nation +1

For me having everyone included is the most important thing.

Staggy, I've seen the number 20 bandied about as the ideal for which England and France are shooting - so would that make it?:

Eng 4
Fra 4
Ire 2
Wal 2
Sco 1
Ita 1
ERC winning nation +2
Amlin winning nation +2

or some other carve up?

I've seen the number 20 bandied about as the ideal for which England and France are shooting

As the Anglo/French preferred breakdown is:

AP/T14/Rabo top 6 teams plus HEC winners plus Amlin winners. Five pools of four.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I've seen the number 20 bandied about as the ideal for which England and France are shooting

As the Anglo/French preferred breakdown is:

AP/T14/Rabo top 6 teams plus HEC winners plus Amlin winners. Five pools of four.

That sounds pretty good to be honest, i'm all for it. Not sure about the pools though, a bit odd ain't it?

Five group winners plus best three runners up I'd suppose. Top four group winners get home quarters and then it's knock out rugby.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Five group winners plus best three runners up I'd suppose. Top four group winners get home quarters and then it's knock out rugby.

For some reason I had in my head 4 pools of 5, pool winners are at home, runners up away on that proposal. Could be wrong though.

Sam,

Im my mind there is no such thing as "Rabo" teams.

What Wales gets is of no concern to me. I will never accept a system where the Rabo Direct Pro 12 are simply numbered 1-6. It is completely at odds with the ethos of the cup.

Having all 14 French teams in Europe is a joke. Same with all 12 English teams. Its way too much.

If Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy were to all announce the removal of the franchises and instead playing a club game could we all have 12-14 teams each.

Each nation gets a certain amount and what we do with it is our own concern. I think Scotland getting 2 places between Heineken and Amlin Cup is fair. Similarly I think Wales and Ireland should be able to have 4. England (a much larger country) should be allowed to have 8. But its complete overkill IMO to have all 14 French and all 12 English teams in there. Its a nonsense.

Regardless of your views as far as the ERC are concerned there is no such thing as "Rabo teams". For example this season Dragons finished above Edinburgh. However Edinburgh are in the Heineken Cup. The Dragons needed to get above the Cardiff Blues and didnt do so.

I honestly can't believe you feel that England should be allowed have TWELVE teams playing in Europe.

That would mean 8 games instead of 5 thought Kiwi and I can't see the clubs wanting to lengthen the season when it's a general complaint that the season is to long and important games have to played in international windows.

Unless of course if 4 pools of 5 and then the winners go straight into the semi finals. Even then it's an extra weekend on top of what's already there.

Your way would be more interesting and would provide more weeks of entertainment but can't see it working that way.

I honestly can't believe you feel that England should be allowed have TWELVE teams playing in Europe

No I've already said that the promoted team shouldn't be involved so I'd say an absolute max of 11. Then again I'd be inclined to cut further depending on the overall proposals. Brining in some semi pro teams from Spain etc into a competition they are going to roundly demolished in however seems pointless went perfectly good English and French teams play no part. I'm an advocate of the third tier for those teams with only the strongest amongst them earning promotion to the Amlin, not shoving in a set number to provide an 'opportunity' because all it does is generate an easy win home and away for the rest of the group whilst not advancing the sport at all.

this season Dragons finished above Edinburgh. However Edinburgh are in the Heineken Cup.

Given the suggestions currently on the table that might not happen soon. Otherwise the Rabo is really just 4 small leagues where the two smaller rugby nations have little to play for unless they get a decent run together and end up in the play offs.

Some of the suggestions on this page are laughable.

So I'm going to laugh.

I don't agree with national allocations, nor do I agree with "domestic" league qualification.

I think the premier "club" competitiion in Europe should be an elite competition, and that qualification should be based on performance in Europe.

Reduce the HC to 16 teams, 4 pools of 4. Bottom of the pools plays in Amlin next season, 2 of the second bottom also play in Amlin, decided by play-offs.

The 6 best teams in Amlin get promoted to HC next season.

HC becomes elite with meaningful games throughout the pools, Amlin is strengthened and reaches a wider audience.

Rabo, AP and T14 can do their own thing unfettered by Euro distractions, and teams aspiring to play in HC have to put in the hard work in the Amlin.

I'm having trouble seeing eye to eye with Saints' stance. Yes the Rabo has more qualification seeing as more nations are represented and even so the English and French still have a higher representation than each respective nation in the Rabo. That said I still don't believe the Italians should be part of the Rabo.

"What's more, if you were to look at what happens in the RaboDirect Pro12 competition and analyse the players that teams put out, the squads are able to rotate and take breaks in that competition, to some degree," added Robson.

"Teams can rest key players, so for a Heineken Cup match they draft in stronger players and they're fresh. They've largely played less than the English players so it makes it a tougher competition for us.

That's only because they choose to field their strongest side more regularly in their own domestic league than we do in ours. How is it anyone's problem but theirs if they'd rather be English champs than Euro champs? And this is coming from a side that was in the final last year.

Seeing as several English and French clubs have won their share of Euro titles compared to only one nation represented in the Rabo, I can't help but feel this is just a massive whinge tbh.

red_stag wrote:Sam,

Im my mind there is no such thing as "Rabo" teams.

What Wales gets is of no concern to me. I will never accept a system where the Rabo Direct Pro 12 are simply numbered 1-6. It is completely at odds with the ethos of the cup.

Having all 14 French teams in Europe is a joke. Same with all 12 English teams. Its way too much.

If Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy were to all announce the removal of the franchises and instead playing a club game could we all have 12-14 teams each.

Each nation gets a certain amount and what we do with it is our own concern. I think Scotland getting 2 places between Heineken and Amlin Cup is fair. Similarly I think Wales and Ireland should be able to have 4. England (a much larger country) should be allowed to have 8. But its complete overkill IMO to have all 14 French and all 12 English teams in there. Its a nonsense.

Regardless of your views as far as the ERC are concerned there is no such thing as "Rabo teams". For example this season Dragons finished above Edinburgh. However Edinburgh are in the Heineken Cup. The Dragons needed to get above the Cardiff Blues and didnt do so.

I honestly can't believe you feel that England should be allowed have TWELVE teams playing in Europe.

Don't all the English and French clubs that don't qualify for the Heineken play in the Amlin anyway at the moment?

Knowsit17 wrote:I'm having trouble seeing eye to eye with Saints' stance. Yes the Rabo has more qualification seeing as more nations are represented and even so the English and French still have a higher representation than each respective nation in the Rabo. That said I still don't believe the Italians should be part of the Rabo.

"What's more, if you were to look at what happens in the RaboDirect Pro12 competition and analyse the players that teams put out, the squads are able to rotate and take breaks in that competition, to some degree," added Robson.

"Teams can rest key players, so for a Heineken Cup match they draft in stronger players and they're fresh. They've largely played less than the English players so it makes it a tougher competition for us.

That's only because they choose to field their strongest side more regularly in their own domestic league than we do in ours. How is it anyone's problem but theirs if they'd rather be English champs than Euro champs? And this is coming from a side that was in the final last year.

Seeing as several English and French clubs have won their share of Euro titles compared to only one nation represented in the Rabo, I can't help but feel this is just a massive whinge tbh.

Well that's your opinion because as an Ospreys supporter i don't want them resting players in the Pro 12 so they can do well in the HC. I feel like that would just be ripping me off, when i bloody well pay to go see a Pro 12 match i want to see a full strength team.

I still prefer Sorting out the European club competitions conundrum :
https://www.606v2.com/t30205-sorting-out-the-european-club-competitions-conundrum#1271186

GoWales - yes currently all English and French sides are in and I see no problem with it. However the French want to reduce the amount of places in the Heineken Cup by 8 and same with Amlin. However they want to retain their places. I was talking about the 16 team format that I mentioned earlier.

Essentially the French and English want to cut down the size of the competitions and all of the places being cut to come from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy. Sorry- thats not justice. You can understand why we're all so pished off.

Us Irish, in particular, have contributed a huge amount to this competition over the years. Feels like we're being rewarded for our success by the English and French trying to diminish our role and take a bigger slice of the financial pie for themselves. Cheers guys

The way i see it is reducing it to 16 teams, and remove the runner up spot.

HEC: 16 Teams

4 Eng
4 Fra
2 Ire
2 Wal
1 Sco
1 Itl
+ Amlin
+ HEC

4 Pools of 4, winner qualifies, no runner up places, only the best of pool proceed.

Sorry, but France & England have too many teams in there already regardless of size of their countries. Reduce that and only their *better* teams can compete. So each season the top placed teams from each union qualify to the HC, so there is a competition for places but they must work at it so to speak though the year to qualify.

It will be a shame if greed kills a good competition.

I believe that the ethos of the HC is for it to be inclusive of the major European rugby countries. I have no problenm with a smaller contest and no problem if countries with two professional teams have one representative, those with four have two and perhaps 4 each from France and England. How a team qualifies should be down to the individual rugby unions.

A competition of "elite" European clubs, regardless of where they are from is a different ethos and imo not one that appeals.

I doubt that England's club officials are really motivated by anything other than self interest. On structure and qualification, England can organise it's own league any way it pleases and determine rules for qualification (morris dance playoffs for all I care). The notice to withdraw does look a bit like a bullying tactic though - I hope greed and short sightedness doesn't mean that the best English teams are lost from what is a good contest.

Apart from maintaining the status quo, I struggle to understand the majority preference for the inclusiveness of the 6N closed shop HC format as opposed to an elite competition.

The second tier Amlin is there as a development competition, and can be strengthened to become more meaningful.

Financially, the split of money is a commercial negotiation so a union/country could get the same share of the collective whether its teams play in HC or Amlin.

What are the benefits of including average quality teams in the HC?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Apart from maintaining the status quo, I struggle to understand the majority preference for the inclusiveness of the 6N closed shop HC format as opposed to an elite competition.

The second tier Amlin is there as a development competition, and can be strengthened to become more meaningful.

Financially, the split of money is a commercial negotiation so a union/country could get the same share of the collective whether its teams play in HC or Amlin.

What are the benefits of including average quality teams in the HC?

Agreed Dubbya,

It's analogous to supporting a EU dictat that suggests that BT, Deutsche Telekom and France Telecom should have exclusive rights to monopolise the entire European phone market.