CJ Stander to move to Munster.

by **Biltong** Wed 20 Jun 2012, 7:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

Courtesy of Sport 24

Pretoria - The Blue Bulls Company announced on Wednesday that Bulls loose forward CJ Stander has decided against taking the option to extend his contract with the union.

Stander will instead move to Munster, after agreeing terms with the Irish club.

Stander will remain part of the Bulls' Super Rugby squad and will be available to play for the Blue Bulls in the Currie Cup competition.

He will move to Ireland when his contract with the union runs out on October 31.

The Chief Executive Officer of the Blue Bulls Company, Barend van Graan, said that they were unable to match the current offer on the table from the Irish club.

“We identified CJ at schoolboy level already and he was part of our future planning at the Bulls. However we couldn’t match the Munster offer - such is the reality of professional sport.”

Bulls coach, Frans Ludeke, wished Stander well in his decision.

“Quality players like CJ, who have also shown tremendous leadership abilities, don’t come around very often and so it was not a surprise to hear about his overseas offer. We would have loved to have had him with us well into the future, but it makes financial sense for CJ to accept the Munster offer. I have no doubt that CJ will continue to give everything he has throughout the remainder of our Super Rugby campaign as well as our Currie Cup season.”

Stander has captained the Vodacom Blue Bulls at U19 and U21 level as well as South Africa at U20 level.

He made his Super Rugby debut in 2012 and has played in all 13 Super Rugby matches for the Bulls this year.

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:02 pm

rodders wrote:
biltongbek wrote:I have given up worrying about this Rodders, it is what it is, I'll enjoy rugby for as long as it lasts, there after I suppose I just won't care anymore.

Biltong mate, I think its this guys choice to go overseas, just like Jarod Payne but it isn't right to me that he now has a contract that means he can't play for the boks for 3 years.

In Payne's case it is neither here nor there because NZ don't select overseas players anyway and the likes of Strauss and Diack weren't going to make the grade anyway.

But in this case it's just not right, if he was in the frame for SA. You have to point the finger at the player for putting cash above playing for his country but I'm disappointed that the IRFU are facilitating this sort of thing.

Rods, he could be in a Springbok jersey in a year as Dougie will more than likely retire at the end of this season which will free up a NIQ spot.

Considering Kieran Read credits Rob Penney as being a major influence in his career, I wouldn't be surprised if Penney could be a big attraction for a young player like CJ.

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:11 pm

[quote="biltongbek"]

Thomond wrote:Never heard of the guy but I don't watch much S15. Seems to be a very solid signing.

Dowlais, Munster have lost 3 irish international backrows in the last 12 months. We have talent there but we needed someone to bolster the back row.

He has been touted as a future Bok already being in the development squad Heyneke Meyer has selected, hence the shock in SA for him leaving, he would most ikely have been a Springbok by next year, hence the confusion at his departure and why people at home is thinking he is going to play for Ireland in three years.

Article I found this morning.

South African rugby was rocked on Wednesday by the news that one of its brightest prospects – Bulls flanker CJ Stander – had turned down an offer to stay in South Africa and chose to take up a contract with Irish superclub Munster.

While local players moving overseas is nothing new, Stander’s decision came out of the blue for many and could well see him turn out for Ireland in three years' time.

The loose forward was identified by Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer as part of a group of players who have been training along with the Bok squad – in essence to gain experience and players who Meyer believes will become Boks within the next year or so. That group also includes the likes of Stormers Frans Malherbe and Siya Kolisi.

Stander has shown that despite his young age – he still is only 21 – he is one of the brightest prospects for the future, having captained SA Schools for two years in a row and also the SA under-20 side. This season he has commanded a regular place in the Bulls' loose-trio and has been one of their standout performers in the Vodacom Super Rugby competition.

However, it is understood that the offer from Munster was financially appealing, so much so that Stander decided his future was in Ireland for the next few years.

Munster have looked to recruit from overseas to fill player voids and have also received financial backing from the Irish Rugby Union for their venture, hinting that whoever is recruited will be lured into the Emerald Green in the next few years.

This may be a premature statement, but there are also warning signs if young talented players like Stander choose to go overseas rather than vie for a Springbok starting spot.

DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND

Still, the move is a difficult one to comprehend giving Stander’s rising star in the game, and the Bulls insinuated that it was more about the offer he received, something that was denied by his agent.

The same article, but this paragraph was added in:

However, it may be that the Bulls' preference for their own loose trio of Pierre Spies, Dewald Potgieter and Deon Stegmann, coupled with the arrival of Jacques Potgieter and the up-and-coming former SA under-20 captain Arno Botha, may have something to do with the decision.

The Bulls also have current SA under-20 captain Wian Liebenberg and IRB Junior World Cup Player of the Year nominee Shaun Adendorff.

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/sa-rugby/news/120620/Stander_decision_rocks_Bulls_SA

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:15 pm

Sorry I may be lost, I thought Munster had used all their NIQ places? Is this guy a project player or are Munster being given an extra NIQ place due to retirments etc????

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:16 pm

As an aside, are first initials the new 'O's of Irish rugby (BOD, POC, DOC, POM, ROG) ....

Munster now have a BJ, a CJ and a JJ. Very Happy

(and hopefully JP in the background willing to use the chequebook to get us out of a hole).

by **Biltong** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:17 pm

Stag, is it confirmed that he only signed for 2 years?

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:18 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry I may be lost, I thought Munster had used all their NIQ places? Is this guy a project player or are Munster being given an extra NIQ place due to retirments etc????

No, he is a project (as in he hasn't been capped by SA) so fulfills the criteria. Like Straus may never be capped by Ireland, but will be Ireland qualified as long as he isn't capped by someone else.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:25 pm

Sin é wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry I may be lost, I thought Munster had used all their NIQ places? Is this guy a project player or are Munster being given an extra NIQ place due to retirments etc????

No, he is a project (as in he hasn't been capped by SA) so fulfills the criteria. Like Straus may never be capped by Ireland, but will be Ireland qualified as long as he isn't capped by someone else.

How does that work if he is only signed for 2 years Sin? Either he is another NIQ player, or he is a project player signed for 3 years.

How can he be a project if he isn't ever going to be IQ?

by red_stag Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:27 pm

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/provincial/2012/0620/325874-munster-sign-south-african-cj-stander/

http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/sport/munster-sign-stander/

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2012/0621/1224318384535.html

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/10573.php

All of these report including the official Munster website report that it is just a 2 year deal.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:28 pm

Biltong - If Stander really is a future springbok, he will go back to SA. Why would he pick Ireland over South Africa? I can understand your frustrations, but I don't think he will ever be an option for Ireland, even if the IRFU want him to be. Though if we ended up losing the likes of Henderson and Hanrahan etc to other countries, I am sure there would be an outrage from our end.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:29 pm

How many NIQ players do Munster have now then?

by red_stag Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:29 pm

Ah the good old Irish tax system. Keeping our young fellas rooted at home.

Apparently John Hayes still lives with his Mam and Dad.

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry I may be lost, I thought Munster had used all their NIQ places? Is this guy a project player or are Munster being given an extra NIQ place due to retirments etc????

No, he is a project (as in he hasn't been capped by SA) so fulfills the criteria. Like Straus may never be capped by Ireland, but will be Ireland qualified as long as he isn't capped by someone else.

How does that work if he is only signed for 2 years Sin? Either he is another NIQ player, or he is a project player signed for 3 years.

How can he be a project if he isn't ever going to be IQ?

He is signed for 2 years as a project player (our last project Borlase was signed for 2 years). His status can change after a year if he does want to play for SA (which I hope he does). Its just an IRFU admin thing really about Project players.

His comments off munster website:

The player himself expressed his delight at the move saying. " I felt honoured and privileged when Munster approached me and indicated that I am viewed as a player with the potential to represent Munster.

"I spent countless hours on the Club's website to learn more about Munster's history, traditions and community involvement. It goes without saying that I am aware that Munster is a giant in World Rugby.

"I know though that I will join an institution that is much bigger than just being a rugby Club and look forward to be a contributing member of the team and to earn the respect of my future team mates and Munster supporters if selected."

Stander's next engagement for the Bulls is against the Cheetahs on June 30th and he will be involved with the Blue Bulls in the Currie Cup and join Munster immediately after the conclusion of that tournament.

No mention whatsoever of playing for Ireland, just Munster.

by Sin é Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:32 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How many NIQ players do Munster have now then?

Wian (SA)
BJ (SA)
Casey (NZ)
Dougie (NZ)
+ CJ (project - like Payne for you).

by red_stag Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:34 pm

Rory we have 4+1

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:37 pm

The whole point of a project player is that they are signed for 3 years (the residency rule) so that does not add up Sin. If Borlase left after 2 years then he was just another NIQ signing. Same for Stander if he has signed for 2 years. So in other words, Munster have got away with an extra NIQ.

by **Biltong** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:37 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Biltong - If Stander really is a future springbok, he will go back to SA. Why would he pick Ireland over South Africa? I can understand your frustrations, but I don't think he will ever be an option for Ireland, even if the IRFU want him to be. Though if we ended up losing the likes of Henderson and Hanrahan etc to other countries, I am sure there would be an outrage from our end.

Rory, only the future will tell, what is strange to me is why would he leave if he will be a Springbok in the near future?

by red_stag Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:38 pm

Rory it may be the case that it is a 2 year deal with the option of a 3rd. I also think every project player is merely a NIQ.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:43 pm

biltongbek wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Biltong - If Stander really is a future springbok, he will go back to SA. Why would he pick Ireland over South Africa? I can understand your frustrations, but I don't think he will ever be an option for Ireland, even if the IRFU want him to be. Though if we ended up losing the likes of Henderson and Hanrahan etc to other countries, I am sure there would be an outrage from our end.

Rory, only the future will tell, what is strange to me is why would he leave if he will be a Springbok in the near future?

Maybe he thinks he still has a LOT of competition right now (which he does, especially when Burger/Vermeulen etc return) and with 2 years experience in Ireland he may return a better player. Though he was playing against the best opposition he could with a starting place for the Bulls.. I don't know biltong, but I would be very surprised if he actually has aspirations to play for Ireland.

by red_stag Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:44 pm

There has never been a project player who represented Ireland to my knowledge.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:44 pm

red_stag wrote:Rory it may be the case that it is a 2 year deal with the option of a 3rd. I also think every project player is merely a NIQ.

I pretty much agree, though this surely shows there is no point sugar coating it with the "project player" business.

If they never take the 3rd year option, they were always an NIQ player.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:45 pm

If he has only signed for 2 years than SA have nothing to worrie about

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:45 pm

red_stag wrote:There has never been a project player who represented Ireland to my knowledge.

That may change this year though with Strauss. I hope it doesn't, I think Cronin is better personally.

by **Biltong** Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:47 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Biltong - If Stander really is a future springbok, he will go back to SA. Why would he pick Ireland over South Africa? I can understand your frustrations, but I don't think he will ever be an option for Ireland, even if the IRFU want him to be. Though if we ended up losing the likes of Henderson and Hanrahan etc to other countries, I am sure there would be an outrage from our end.

On that point Rory, it all sounds cool when you are on the recieving end of the talent, but as you rightly point out, when the shoe is on the other foot, it is a different story. Not so cut and dried then, is it?

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 12:54 pm

Yeah, I didn't really think about that until today after reading your frustrations. If Ulster lost Henderson (a player born and bred in Ulster) to somewhere like Scotland (same sort of situation with SA and Ireland) I would be absolutely gutted. So no, I totally agree with you that it isn't fair, and the line must be drawn somewhere. Especially with a young player such as Stander.

However, you have to also look at Stander here for choosing the cash over his country. I genuinely don't think he will ever want to play for Ireland, but he has still taken the money over a chance to represent one of the best teams in world rugby. Again though, the guy is pretty young. He shouldn't have been targeted.

by red_stag Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:02 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:he has still taken the money over a chance to represent one of the best teams in world rugby.

He managed to do both.

He signed for Munster!!

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:05 pm

True. Though for most guys (especially in SA I would imagine, more so than players here) playing for your country would be the pinnacle of your career. If he is really that close to representing SA, you have to wonder why on earth he picked to move abroad.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:06 pm

I thought I'd heard that the IRFU was abandoning the "project player" designation? Headscratch

Then again the IRFU's foreign development policy is often confusing. You get NZ to develop a half-back for you (Isaac Boss) and send a promising young loosehead to the Brumbies (Ruarhid Murphy (sp?) ). Common sense would have suggested doing it the other way around surely Wink

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:10 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
red_stag wrote:There has never been a project player who represented Ireland to my knowledge.

That may change this year though with Strauss. I hope it doesn't, I think Cronin is better personally.

Trust me cronin is not better than strauss (yet) strauss has been outstanding the last 2 years

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:15 pm

In the 10/11 season I would agree with you, but this season I think Cronin has dramatically improved. I was never impressed with him until this season. I think he is an outstanding player. Strauss hasn't been as good as Cronin this season IMO.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:26 pm

I must say I don't like this one bit.

I always assumed (why would I do that? IDIOT! Doh

) that when a guy was being signed as a project player, the IRFU would have to sit him down and talk to him about the idea of playing for Ireland and all their opinions on it. This guy looks like he will play for S.Africa and fair play to him I think he is right.

I don't like that he is a project player "just because he hasn't been capped before" that isn't a project in my mind that is just a loop hole excuse that he isn't really an NIQ.

Very unhappy about this. I know Munster need a backrow and maybe they should have got an emergency injury/retirement cover but the IRFU (not Munster) have handled this badly and I am quite angry I have to say.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:27 pm

And I'm about to run out of quota time in work so I can only rant about my feelings on the internet for another 8.5 minutes!

furious

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:41 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:And I'm about to run out of quota time in work so I can only rant about my feelings on the internet for another 8.5 minutes!

Just change the category from "Non-Work" to "Project" Wink

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 21 Jun 2012, 1:44 pm

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 21 Jun 2012, 11:04 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:I thought I'd heard that the IRFU was abandoning the "project player" designation? Headscratch

Then again the IRFU's foreign development policy is often confusing. You get NZ to develop a half-back for you (Isaac Boss) and send a promising young loosehead to the Brumbies (Ruarhid Murphy (sp?) ). Common sense would have suggested doing it the other way around surely

How is murphy gettin on with the brumbies?

by brennomac Fri 22 Jun 2012, 10:24 am

I don't profess to know much about the economics of SA rugby and S15 rugby, but I'm astonished that the Bulls, SA's most successful team (?) claim that they can't match the sort of money Munster are paying Stander. Maybe biltong or another SA poster can tell us more about the rugbynomics of SA

by formerly known as Sam Fri 22 Jun 2012, 10:28 am

brennomac, Munster have recently lost Wallace and Leamy to retirement. I bet they have a chunk of cash available to bid on players with now those two are off the wage budget, even with the IRFU funding half their wages through central contracts.

by **rodders** Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:15 am

The IRFU have helped fund the move so he must be on substantial wages.

by LordDowlais Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:23 am

rodders wrote:The IRFU have helped fund the move so he must be on substantial wages.

Why don't they help any other province like that ? A side like Connacht could do with these types of signings. chin

by **Biltong** Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:25 am

brennomac wrote:I don't profess to know much about the economics of SA rugby and S15 rugby, but I'm astonished that the Bulls, SA's most successful team (?) claim that they can't match the sort of money Munster are paying Stander. Maybe biltong or another SA poster can tell us more about the rugbynomics of SA

Brenno, firstly let me say this. The earnings of rugby players in SA is a closely guarded secret. For all my nous to dig up info I have yet to find a source that provides me that kind of information,

However I can see only two possibilities here.

One Stander said somehwere the Bulls were not asked to match the offer and the decision wasn't based on finances only , hence the reaction from SA because nobody knows what that means.

Secondly, the Bulls already has a truckload full of loose forwards contracted and a few 20 year olds as well, so maybe they didn't see the need to pay more for him.

by LordDowlais Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:29 am

Biltong, I will bet you my house that what ever the Irish are offering him, South Africa were not anywhere near it. You cannot blame the kid, know let us all sit back and see what nationality he chooses, money,sorry I mean Ireland, or the country of his birth.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:32 am

I still don't know how the IRFU are trying to get away with calling him a project player!

by Mickado Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:35 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I still don't know how the IRFU are trying to get away with calling him a project player!

I haven't seen anything officially stating that he's a project player. Only posters on here. You're still allowed 5 NIQ players + 1 project player as far as i know. So next year Munster will have 5NIQ players and no projects.

by **rodders** Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:39 am

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:The IRFU have helped fund the move so he must be on substantial wages.

Why don't they help any other province like that ? A side like Connacht could do with these types of signings.

They do. They help fund all the provinces.

Connacht are getting a fair bit of investment but as they don't regularly play in the HEC and have much smaller crowds I'd imagine its harder to attract top players there and also the IRFU will want to see a return on that investment i.e. success in the HEC and Rabo. At the minute there's only 3 teams which will have a realistic chance of producing that.

by **profitius** Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:43 am

biltongbek wrote:
brennomac wrote:I don't profess to know much about the economics of SA rugby and S15 rugby, but I'm astonished that the Bulls, SA's most successful team (?) claim that they can't match the sort of money Munster are paying Stander. Maybe biltong or another SA poster can tell us more about the rugbynomics of SA
Brenno, firstly let me say this. The earnings of rugby players in SA is a closely guarded secret. For all my nous to dig up info I have yet to find a source that provides me that kind of information,

However I can see only two possibilities here.

One Stander said somehwere the Bulls were not asked to match the offer and the decision wasn't based on finances only , hence the reaction from SA because nobody knows what that means.

Secondly, the Bulls already has a truckload full of loose forwards contracted and a few 20 year olds as well, so maybe they didn't see the need to pay more for him.

I was told by a South African that a low end pro gets about €35k, and top end pro gets about €70k and Shalk Burger is the highest paid on €120k. They get bonuses of about €2k for some matches etc.

by **rodders** Fri 22 Jun 2012, 11:54 am

Ah gees that can't be right, sure the top Irish players are getting 300k and thats not a patch on what they pay in France or Japan.

by Kingshu Fri 22 Jun 2012, 12:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:The IRFU have helped fund the move so he must be on substantial wages.

Why don't they help any other province like that ? A side like Connacht could do with these types of signings.

They do , Connacht can't attract these these types of player, but they have got Parks (will suit them, no matter your opionion, don't get to be an international being completly useless) and big George. I'd go so far as to say that Connachts NIQ players on on about a par with the NWQ players at the regions, and Ulster Munster and Liensters are a cut above.

by Kingshu Fri 22 Jun 2012, 12:05 pm

actually thinking in Connacht get some stick for being the worst team from the Ireland, Wales and Scotland, as they had a rep for finishing with the wooden spoon.

Under Elwood (and increased funding) this is no longer the case and they are no longer the worst team, Dragons are, but it will take them time to shake of this preception of them.

Beating Harliquins and going close away from home helped. More of the Same Connacht, I can see you actually making the H-cup quarter finals.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri 22 Jun 2012, 12:58 pm

Mickado wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I still don't know how the IRFU are trying to get away with calling him a project player!

I haven't seen anything officially stating that he's a project player. Only posters on here. You're still allowed 5 NIQ players + 1 project player as far as i know. So next year Munster will have 5NIQ players and no projects.

Edit: (He would have to be a project because it is the only spot Munster have. BornLazy was released I think)

It's only 4 + 1 this year Mick.

Munster are

Stander

Du Preez
Botha
Howlett
Laulala

Ulster are

Payne

Muller
Pinar
Afoa
Williams

Leinster are

??

Nacewa
Van Der Merwe
Possibly some high profile 2nd row.
??

In a country that produce a bjillion back row players it is debatable how he can be considered a "project" But the "project" label gets muddier and vaguer now that the IRFU are bringing in the new rules next year.

Can Payne be considered a project? Are Ireland short of utility backs? If Leinster signed a project 2nd row. Are Ireland short of 2nd rows?

Possibly less options than in the back row, but it's all a loada meboll1x at this stage. I think that when Strauss was signed 3 years ago, Ireland were a bit stuck at hooker. When Bornlazy was signed Ireland were badly stuck at tighthead.

by Kingshu Fri 22 Jun 2012, 1:09 pm

Was just wondering, remember BJ asking Ulster for more mioney they turned him down, and got Afoa and BJ went to Munster.

If the IRFU allow regigning of NIQ player (which the provinces want) but don't allow a new NIQ player in that position if they leave, that would create problems as players could demand want they want to renew, as you can only replace me with an Irish player.

Imagine it happened a few years ago Ulster would prob have had to pay BJ what he wanted, as they were no Irish alternatives if he left.

If agents know this expect demands to increase, likewise the agent of the most suitable Irish alternative he can ask for nearly whatever he likes

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 22 Jun 2012, 4:25 pm

Yeah I thought it was reduced to 4 + 1 too.

I don't know how this Stander lad is here if he looks so likely of heading back to S.Africa. Can the IRFU insist on a player like Ruddock or Avuv'a moving to Munster saying something along the lines of "you don't have to move, but your job is moving to Limerick."?

What do Ulster lads think of Payne moving back to New Zealand or playing for Ireland? What has he said on the matter? Will be interesting to see him in a back 3 with Gilroy and Bowe too.

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