Argentina in the Rugby Championship

First topic message reminder :

Struggle...

Is the only word that can be used for the Pumas in the upcoming Rugby Championship.

Now the tours downunder its only weeks away until the next tournament in our zone.

For the record...
Since the professional era this is the record against the 3 SH sides:

-Played 28, won 1 (beat Aus 18-16 in 1997) for a 3.6% win rate.
-Average score of 41-17 with 5 tries to 2 scored.

In the same period they have 40 wins from 84 matches against 6N sides at 47.6%.
Notable wins since 2011 over France, Scotland and Italy.

Hardly the credentials to suggest a chance in this championship. Given the other 3 will see this match as must win for any hopes of the title Argentina are in for a torrid time in whats simply the toughest in Rugby to win where NO match is easy...until now.

It would make sense to add Argentinian teams though, it would keep their top players in the same season which would benefit their national team.

Would make sense but the competition would turn crazy... too many clubs already. The players would break aged 25 with the number of games played.

Teams cannot afford to have 50+ players on their books getting regular game time either to spread the load ... they couldn't afford the wage bill esp. given that the north already pays better.

biltongbek wrote:It would make sense to add Argentinian teams though, it would keep their top players in the same season which would benefit their national team.

That would be the common sense solution but it took years from Italy being admitted to the 6 Nations to people realising Italy needed teams in the Rabo Direct to bridge the gap. While the big 3 already have a cosy little arrangement with Super rugby.

Of course as Super rugby has expanded from the Super 10 over the years you have the smaller provinces squealing at being more and more marginalised. Could South Africas Provincial Cup be reorganised to include some Argentinian provinces to help them, or is that not feasable?

Shifty ITM is NZ, we have the Currie Cup, we are already including an Argentinian team in our Vodacom Cup, so yes it is possible. Just don't know how they will find time to increase the number of teams in the Currie cup as it has now been reduced to 6 teams due to time.

biltongbek wrote:Shifty ITM is NZ, we have the Currie Cup, we are already including an Argentinian team in our Vodacom Cup, so yes it is possible. Just don't know how they will find time to increase the number of teams in the Currie cup as it has now been reduced to 6 teams due to time.

Yup sorry I meant the Currie Cup.

Maybe some king of week to week league to work under Super rugby?

Argentina's increasing engagement with the Tri Nations was further cemented in December 2009, when the South African Rugby Union announced that an Argentine team would join the national developmental competition, the Vodacom Cup, starting in 2010. The team, known as Pampas XV, was initially expected to be based in Stellenbosch in the Western Cape,[16] but ultimately found a home in Potchefstroom. Pampas XV won the competition in its second season of 2011.

It seems Argentina are already being included.

The reason I commented on possible expansion of Super Rugby is that it seems to be a very financially driven competition. They have previously had no qualms about changing the structure to get more teams or games in and I could easily see it happening again. I think they currently play 16 games before the knockouts - home and away against same country teams and away against 8/10 foreign teams (not quite as screwed up as our LV= Cup but it's pushing hard). Would it be mad to have say two conferences of 9 playing home and away against all? Or a round robin with 16/17 teams. Either way it would be no more games than they play now.

Big it is totally financially driven, I wouldn't put any thing past them

The way I see it Argentina will bring the players back to Argentina and form 3/4 super clubs, they will be forced to at least semi professinalise the domestic league (something they don't want to do)

Super 20 split into 2 conferences

5 NZ and 5 Aus play home and away.
6 SA and 4 Arg play home and away.

Top 4 in each go into a knock out cup (1st in NZ/AUS v 4th SA/ARG) etc etc

less travelling more derbies.

However I can see that currently ARG cannot afford to bring players home, but if they wait a few years, they will become less valuable in Europe (now they are going to be missing a lot of the season and travel a lot) this will bring they average wages down, plus the 4 nations money Argentina would be recieving, to a point they can afford to bring them home and create the Super teams.

I just hope ARG are putting the foundations in place, ie creating 4 invititation regional teams, based on clubs in a region play against each other at the end of the season, that would be in place with history and clubs knowing which one they feed into, ready to step up to be Super teams when the time comes.

Absolutely delighted Argentina are in the competition first of all. I know there are a lot of creases still to iron out but putting the horse before the cart, fair play to everyone involved in this decision, it will be tough at the start but in the long term this is a good move.

Here is hoping the Argie's acquit themselves well and get a couple of wins. Personally I think they will add a lot to the tournament in terms of culture and variety and I will 100% be rooting for them in every match (you Kiwis, Saffas and Aussies are great but I LOVE Argentina even though they have beaten us in some big games)

Hopefully clubs will be set up in Argentina and some (preferably most) of their players move from France to play at home.

Argentina is preparing the stadium of La Plata for TRC match VS NZ.

Spoiler:

At the request of SANZAR, UAR is pulling the giant screen in the center of the stadium, (as you can see from the photos). SANZAR believes it can interfere with a high kicks.

Spoiler:

On the other hand, as you can see in the pics, is already working for the TRC.
At this moment they has removed the grass blocks, to let the crane remove the giant screen.
The grass of the stadium is modular, the modules can be removed easily. The stadium has several playing fields, which are exchanged for they rest and receive sunlight.

Vamos los Pumas, I hope they do well but they could turn into the Italy of the tornument. I hope not though, hopefully they will cause afew shocks.

Is Felipe not a first choice starter for the Pumas anymore? What about the rest of the old guard, Ledesma, Roncero, Hernandez, Agulla?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Is Felipe not a first choice starter for the Pumas anymore? What about the rest of the old guard, Ledesma, Roncero, Hernandez, Agulla?

Roncero, Hernandez and Agulla will play TRC.
Ledesma and Contempomi are not called to play.

Argie you probably know more about this than I do, who are the guys in Argentina that you are really hopeful for and think could be great?

Is there any area of weakness you feel in your team?

Finally, is there any chance you could try and not beat Ireland in november? Thanks.

What about Fernandez Lobbe? He is one of my favourite players to watch. He is a real leader and he had a great world cup before his injury. Is he still injured or what?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Argie you probably know more about this than I do, who are the guys in Argentina that you are really hopeful for and think could be great?

The team is in a change phase. The big players are in their later years, and is forming a new generation. There are very good players who have won the Vodacom Cup in South Africa, they are very young and need experience, then, the team for the TRC will be a mix of experienced players and very young players.
I recommend following carefully to Manuel Montero, I also like the fullback Lucas Amorosino, and also has an interesting future Martín Landajo, he plays at my club in Argentina, El CASI.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Is there any area of weakness you feel in your team?

Argentina's strength was always defence. But always played a slow rugby.
The main objective of Graham Henry, as advisor, is to make rugby more offensive without losing defense.
Argentina plays very defensive against the big teams, they need to be encouraged to attack more. I think it will be an interesting experience to see

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Finally, is there any chance you could try and not beat Ireland in november? Thanks.

Let me answer that after the TRC,

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What about Fernandez Lobbe? He is one of my favourite players to watch. He is a real leader and he had a great world cup before his injury. Is he still injured or what?

You are in luck
Juan Martin Fenández Lobbe is concentrated in the high performance center in Pensacola USA, along with the rest of the team, is to recover from an injury, and he will be the team captain, replacing Felipe Contepomi.

Brilliant! I look forward to watching him lead Argentina!

What is the starting team likely to be? Will it be similar to the team that played France?

Argiefan, thanks for your input here mate, it is good to hear from an Argentinian fan's perspective.

Looking forward to see you here more often, espevially during thr Rugby Championship

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Brilliant! I look forward to watching him lead Argentina!

What is the starting team likely to be? Will it be similar to the team that played France?

NO, the team that played vs Francia is a B team.

The list of players for TRC is:
Horacio Agulla (Leicester),
Patricio Albacete (Stade Toulousian),
Marcos Ayerza (Leicester),
Marcelo Bosch (Biarritz),
Martín Bustos Moyano (Montpellier),
Maximiliano Bustos (Montepellier),
Gonzalo Camacho (Exeter),
Rafael Carballo (Bordeaux),
Manuel Carizza (Biarritz),
Agustín Creevy (Montpellier),
Tomás Cubelli (Belgrano),
Tomás De la Vega (CUBA),
Julio Farías Cabello (Tucumán Rugby),
Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe (Toulon),
Santiago Fernández (Montpellier),
Juan Figallo (Montpellier),
Agustín Figuerola (Brive),
Alvaro Galindo (Racing Metro),
Lucas González Amorosino (Montpellier),
Eusebio Guiñazu (Free),
Juan Martín Hernández (Racing Metro),
Juan José Imhoff (Racing Metro),
Martín Landajo (CASI),
Juan Manuel Leguizamón (Lyon),
Tomás Leonardi (SIC),
Juan Pablo Orlandi (Racing Metro),
Martín Rodríguez (Stade Français),
Rodrigo Roncero (Free),
Federico Sánchez (Bordeaux),
Leonardo Senatore (Harlequins),
Tomás Vallejos (Harlequins),
Nicolás Vergallo (Stade Toulousian).

NOTE: CASI, SIC, CUBA, Belgrano and Tucumán Rugby are Argentine clubs.

I am really looking forward to see what Argentina can bring to the table. Glad to have you on the forums mate!

I can't see them wining away but they will definitely compete with aus and sa at home

biltongbek wrote:Argiefan, thanks for your input here mate, it is good to hear from an Argentinian fan's perspective.

Looking forward to see you here more often, espevially during thr Rugby Championship

Thank you very much, I feel me very comfortable in this forum, and I hope to provide information about Argentina. And again, I apologize for my poor English.

Well, I am very excited about the Rugby Championship, more variety, home and away, it should create a lot more excitement.

The thing about this season is the team that goes to Argentina and loses are effectively out of the race for the trophy, plus no team wants to be the first one to go down against Argentina.

Plus we have no idea what effect Graham Henry will have on their attacking nous.

From what I remember he may not assist against the All Blacks?

Does that mean matchday only, or at all?

Argie fan wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Argiefan, thanks for your input here mate, it is good to hear from an Argentinian fan's perspective.

Looking forward to see you here more often, espevially during thr Rugby Championship

Thank you very much, I feel me very comfortable in this forum, and I hope to provide information about Argentina. And again, I apologize for my poor English.

Not much wrong at all mate. We learn as we go along.

is graham Henry coach of argies ??

No alive, he is on special assignment there to assist them for a specific period, I beleive it is up until the end of the Rugby Championship

Ok got it. Hope they do well .

I wish we were in that too. Really has to improve quality of players and interest of the sport in Argentina

No brainer !

alive555 wrote:is graham Henry coach of argies ??

Argentina's coach is Santiago Phelan, Henry was engaged, in a great economic effort by the UAR (Argentine Rugby Union) to be advisor of Phelan.

Speaking of money, let me give you information that sure you don't know. SANZAR does not give even a dollar to the UAR, because the TV contracts were signed before the addition of Argentina to the championship. That's not a good way to collaborate with the weakest! All the economic benefits of the tournament will be shared between three. NZ, SA and AU.
Argentina will only receive the sale of tickets to stadiums in Argentina itself. No TV earnings for Argentina. Incredible.

Returning to henry, he is advisor of Phelan and can sit on the bench against Australia and South Africa, but is not allowed to do against New Zealand.
But who can know what they talk before the game against New Zealand?

surly they must be able to get the money for the games shown in Argentina, sing an agreement to with Argentine TV company to show games in Argentina and be allowed to keep the money for that themselves, untill they is a new TV contract to be done when all 4 unions are involved.

Well that sucks! Anyone know when the last deal was done and when it'll expire?

Man that's going to hurt. No chance of a one off 'good will' payment from SANZAR i suppose?

biltongbek wrote:Argiefan, thanks for your input here mate, it is good to hear from an Argentinian fan's perspective.

Looking forward to see you here more often, espevially during thr Rugby Championship

I agree with Biltong on this one. Great to have someone so passionate and knowing a lot about Argentinian rugby. And your English is better than that of some of us Irish hooligans!

Argie fan wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Brilliant! I look forward to watching him lead Argentina!

What is the starting team likely to be? Will it be similar to the team that played France?

NO, the team that played vs Francia is a B team.

The list of players for TRC is:
Horacio Agulla (Leicester), *
Patricio Albacete (Stade Toulousian), *
Marcos Ayerza (Leicester), *
Marcelo Bosch (Biarritz), *
Martín Bustos Moyano (Montpellier),
Maximiliano Bustos (Montepellier),
Gonzalo Camacho (Exeter),
Rafael Carballo (Bordeaux),
Manuel Carizza (Biarritz),
Agustín Creevy (Montpellier),
Tomás Cubelli (Belgrano),
Tomás De la Vega (CUBA),
Julio Farías Cabello (Tucumán Rugby),
Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe (Toulon), *
Santiago Fernández (Montpellier), *
Juan Figallo (Montpellier),
Agustín Figuerola (Brive),
Alvaro Galindo (Racing Metro),
Lucas González Amorosino (Montpellier), *
Eusebio Guiñazu (Free),
Juan Martín Hernández (Racing Metro), *
Juan José Imhoff (Racing Metro),
Martín Landajo (CASI),
Juan Manuel Leguizamón (Lyon),
Tomás Leonardi (SIC),
Juan Pablo Orlandi (Racing Metro),
Martín Rodríguez (Stade Français), *
Rodrigo Roncero (Free), *
Federico Sánchez (Bordeaux),
Leonardo Senatore (Harlequins),
Tomás Vallejos (Harlequins),
Nicolás Vergallo (Stade Toulousian).

NOTE: CASI, SIC, CUBA, Belgrano and Tucumán Rugby are Argentine clubs.

The lads I marked with a * I would rate as some serious players you could do well with these guys. Great to see some of the team playing in Argentina too.

Delighted

AUSTRALIAN Rugby Union John O'Neill has fired a warning shot across the bows of European clubs after Argentinian captain Felipe Contepomi revealed he would skip the inaugural Rugby Championship for his club's pre-season in France.

Contepomi, the Pumas' talismanic five-eighth, declared last month he would all-but certainly be a non-starter for Argentina in their first tournament alongside New Zealand, Australia and South Africa due in August and October due to commitments with Stade Francais.

The decision has sent shockwaves of concern through not only Argentina, but SANZAR and the IRB as well. There is a worry other Pumas' stars - many of whom play professionally in Europe - could follow suit and pick club over country, leaving Argentina with an understrength team.

Under IRB regulation 9, European clubs are required to release players for the six matches of The Rugby Championship if selected.

As part of an IRB/SANZAR push to help Argentina join a major global competition, the player eligibility laws were specifically amended to make sure the Pumas could get access to their stars.

But Contepomi's decision to return to France for an off-season holiday and Stade Francais' summer training prompted O'Neill to sternly remind European clubs and Argentina's players of their obligations.

"The three SANZAR countries have taken a very big leap of faith in bringing Argentina in, and so has the IRB. There is a financial risk as well as a reputational risk," O'Neill told The Daily Telegraph. "The key part of the whole equation is Argentina be at full-strength.

"The IRB regulations have been amended to widen the window to ensure that the European clubs are forced to release the players.

"So we expect full compliance with the regulations and we expect Argentina to be at full-strength."

O'Neill, who chairs the IRB's influential regulation committee, has particular interest in this issue.

The problem, as the European clubs see it, with The Rugby Championship is that while it falls in their off-season, their players won't get their mandated six weeks rest.

It's not unheard of for European clubs to privately persuade their contracted players, particularly from poorer nations, to declare themselves ineligible for Tests so they don't lose them for any matches.

O'Neill says he would take any such underhanded tactics seriously if Contepomi or other Argentinians were secretly made to withdraw.s from TRC.

"The regulations are abundantly clear if there is any sort of coercion. I am now chairman of the regulations committee and if there is any evidence of a player being coerced not to make himself available I would like to see that complaint, and with evidence, brought forward," he said.

Contepomi will be sorely missed by the Pumas. The 34-year-old is vastly experienced having played 70 Tests since 1998 - including four World Cups - and plying his trade for Bristol, Leinster, Toulon and Stade Francais. His leadership and goal-kicking has helped Argentina make the World Cup quarter-finals in the last two tournaments.

Contepomi was also in fine form in June, leading an understrength Pumas to victory over Italy and France.

"To play in the Four Nations [Rugby Championships], you have to prepare in July. The Argentine federation has an agreement with the European clubs -- those that play in the June internationals won't take part in the new championship," Contepomi said recently.

"I am going to take four weeks vacation and then I will take part in pre-season training with Stade FranGais. If the coaches want it, I will always be here. But I don't think I can play in the Four Nations."

Argentina meet the Wallabies on the Gold Coast on September 15 and then at home in Rosario on October 7.

That's quite disgraceful, ain't it? What do you reckon Argie?

So essentially the European clubs have trained these guys, paid them, homed them and given them all their rugby opportunities to date but woe be tide any club that tries to protect their investment from the big bad TRC!

Just playing devil's advocate here but it must be remembered that there are two sides to every story!

From a players point of view,

"To play in the Four Nations [Rugby Championships], you have to prepare in July. The Argentine federation has an agreement with the European clubs -- those that play in the June internationals won't take part in the new championship," Contepomi said recently.

You can't really expect Contepomi at 34 to play a full club season, then play summer tests, followed by the 4 nations, and then straight back into the middle of a club season, and he was at a world cup the summer before.

He does need those 4 weeks rest he's taken, Argentina should have rested him durning the summer. As I see it he is the only major player this will apply to everyone else was rested for those games.

I do see that this is the start of Argentina having to bring players home if they want to compete and not have any of these issues in future. As a European based player can only play in summer tests or 4 nations but not both.

Ah, when it's put like that, probably fair enough. Thought maybe there was going to be wholesale pull outs, but perhaps not. Apologies, got that wrong.

You can't really expect Contepomi at 34 to play a full club season, then play summer tests, followed by the 4 nations, and then straight back into the middle of a club season, and he was at a world cup the summer before.

I suspect that Contepomi's contract is up for renewal at the end of the season and by taking the madatory 6 week rest period at the end of the 4N he will be missing until December time. This is going to seriously effect his bargaining power in what will be probably his last professional contract before retirement.

A lot of Argentinian players are going to have similar issues. Tigers told Agulla they wouldn't be renewing his contract because of his international committements (though Ayerza was given a new 3 year deal during the same period). Montpellier may also be looking at some of their Argentinian Internationals as being dead weight, they have about 6 and having 6 internationals missing for the first half of every season is tough, especially, if they are being paid full first team wages.

O'Neill trying to stir up trouble again eh? He has no argument.

The sooner the ARU get rid of him the better World and Australian rugby will be.

It sounds to me like he does have an argument. If Argentina are obliged to field their best side, and their best side isn't playing then it's pretty black and white isn't it?

I feel for these players because they need their rest like anyone does and they know what side their bread is buttered on but at the end of day it boils down to what's best for the individual against what's best for Argentina. If Argentina don't field their best sides and cop hidings for a couple of years then I don't think they'll keep getting invited back.

Well maybe O'Neill should make the Australian Super rugby teams take up Argentinian players.

Contepomi can either play for Argentina and not play for his club or play for his club and not play for Argentina. it's pretty simple and it's the same with all the other players. I doubt Contepomi would be selected anyway he's not good enough and he's too old. There haven't been any problems with other players have there? Most likely because Stade Francais are counting on him to back up their squad.

I can see that Argentine players are going to be offered much much lower contracts than was the case before they joined the 4 nations.

This means that the UAR may be able to match the new offers from clubs, and bring the vast majority home, and form some super clubs with them, keeping them in the same season as the rest of the Southern Hemp?

And it's also the Argentinian Union's fault for staying amateur, they've had a lot of opportunities to.

I agree that Argentine players should be assimilated into not only Australian clubs but SA and NZ clubs as well. Maybe each country should have to make space for 1 Argentine player per club on average. 15 clubs, 15 players. Sounds good.

Allowing S15 teams to take on Argentinians certainly appears to be the fairest way of dealing with the issue. Maybe, eventually the Argentinians will be allowed to field their own franchise, like they do in SA (have i just made that up?)

1 more Super Rugby Franchise and give it to Argentina in a set number of years time so their players can plan their return home en masse and that franchise will be strong from the outset. That's a good idea, though just keep your hands off of Marcos Ayerza, he's a Tiger now.

The Aus franchises could do with some Argie beef in the pack

Carpe Diem wrote:So essentially the European clubs have trained these guys, paid them, homed them and given them all their rugby opportunities to date but woe be tide any club that tries to protect their investment from the big bad TRC!

Just playing devil's advocate here but it must be remembered that there are two sides to every story!

You need to consider though that with the inaugaral season of jioning the Rugby Championship this was always going to be an issue, and sure you could argue that these players are developed and paid by these clubs, but consider the opportunity for Argentina to truly step onto the global stage.

Sometimes sacarafices need to be made by all parties.

Truth is these european clubs have known about this for some time.