Chinese - cheating dopers or fair & fabulous freaks of nature?

Simple really, given some extraordinary results in the pool and China's already seedy record on matters of doping and generally respecting fair competition, do you think some of their athletes are currently doped up or not?

16 year old female beating Lochte's final 50 metres. Not sure that's even biologically possible? How can her muscles develop the power of a 30 year old man? I smell a rat...

It does seem a bit dodgey.

However they do have a fairly large pool of kids to choose from.

A one in a billion freak child is more likely to appear in China or India than anywhere else on numbers alone.

yeh, that was why i put in the 'just lucky' option, as that was basically the excuse one of the main Olympic guys used - China just got lucky and managed to find the 1 freak needle in the 1.2bn person haystack.

I still think they dope.

I suppose it comes down to the idea that when something appears too good to be true, it probably isn't.

I don't want to think they are doping, and I think we should stick to innocent until proven guilty. For now, we can only assume she is innocent.

Swimming is a sport where the young tend to do best.

I thinks she's just phenomenally talented. The Chinese takeover was always going to happen one day, and it's started in the pool. One day it will make it's way onto land, like evolution or something.

Not sure of the specifics but I'm pretty sure all medalists are tested, so if she was passed as negative then I can't see how anybody can possibly call her a cheat.

Also, again, not sure on how the Medley works - so this may be nonsense - but could it be the case that the final leg is the Chinese girl's preferred stroke, whereas Lochte's preferred stroke occurs earlier in the routine?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19062639

Apparently no Chinese have been tested positive at all.

At first I thought something dodgy is definitely going on but now after watching the races and hearing some interviews i'm thinking quite different.

1. She was already like no.2 in the world apparently
2. Lochte was quite clearly easing up in the last 50m as he has no threat whatsoever, especially with phelps languishing in 4th. The women's race was much closer so no easing up.
3. many other athletes and swimmers have improved their times or PB's at olympics by a few seconds. That 15 year old from lithuania won gold out of nowhere and just peaked at the right time.
4. This olympics is the most cleanest in history probably with more testing than ever. the top 5 of all swim events are tested after the race. That chinese girl would of been tested and she's even swimming tonight, so therefore she's tested clean.
5. Chinese......1billion people, a superhuman swimmer was always going to be developed and is probably just the phelps of china.

also yer lochte is not a great freestyler (front crawl) and got beaten easily in the 100m free i think to that french bloke agnel, whereas she (the chinese girl) probably is her strongest stroke

Pretty much any other country I'd let it fly (if doping tests came back negative) however with China I'd find it easier to believe massive State investment in the doping programme to find ways to stay one step ahead of ADAs and get away with it. It's classic communism and from a country that legalises Intellectual Property theft and patent infringement.

John wrote:At first I thought something dodgy is definitely going on but now after watching the races and hearing some interviews i'm thinking quite different.

1. She was already like no.2 in the world apparently
2. Lochte was quite clearly easing up in the last 50m as he has no threat whatsoever, especially with phelps languishing in 4th. The women's race was much closer so no easing up.
3. many other athletes and swimmers have improved their times or PB's at olympics by a few seconds. That 15 year old from lithuania won gold out of nowhere and just peaked at the right time.
4. This olympics is the most cleanest in history probably with more testing than ever. the top 5 of all swim events are tested after the race. That chinese girl would of been tested and she's even swimming tonight, so therefore she's tested clean.
5. Chinese......1billion people, a superhuman swimmer was always going to be developed and is probably just the phelps of china.

also yer lochte is not a great freestyler (front crawl) and got beaten easily in the 100m free i think to that french bloke agnel, whereas she (the chinese girl) probably is her strongest stroke

All very good points, especially number 3. Despite the full suits being banned (although the women effectively still wear them) swimmers are still breaking records set with them, and times have been pushed hugely across most events over the last few years. Id say that shows training and technique hasnt been all it could be, and the swimming world in general is still going through a revolution. Its not unreasonable to believe the Chinese might just be ahead of the game in that.
Also look at their divers. they dominate those events, which cant all be down to drugs as it relies on skill more than fitness.
The amount of resources sunk by the Chinese into these events in the run up to Beijing was huge, and they are clearly continuing to learn from that and develop incredible athletes.

We know that drug use is commonplace in American sports, is it racism that means we assume the Chinese must be whilst not questioning the likes of Lochte and Phelps whios achievements are far greater than any individual Chinese.

Iam Thorpes on TV talking about how he improved one of his times by 5 seconds in a year and broke a world record at 16.
This isnt as freakish as its being made out to be.

Im not surprised people are insulted by this.

We should actually be questioning the American coach who is completely out of order and massively unprofessional, and has tarnished a teenager's achievements. He's like a white Kanye West.

Anyone is innocent until proven guilty... I'm disappointed to see people making such accusations.

Except the Chinese have already had athletes sent home/banned from attending due to doping including one of their female swimmers who tested positive after winning a recent world championships.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Except the Chinese have already had athletes sent home/banned from attending due to doping including one of their female swimmers who tested positive after winning a recent world championships.

So have many countries, including the US. Jessica Hardy, for example, who won a bronze with the relay team in London, failed a drug test before Beijing and was banned for a year. Does this mean that the 17 year old Missy Franklin's phenomenal powers of recovery in swimming a 200 metres freestyle semi-final and then being able to win a final just 13 minutes later can be called into question?

Not as many as China. And no other country has exhibited China's blatant disregard for equality and competition as China has. The country is corrupt to the core.

Has there been any recently? Im certainly not aware that any atheletes have tested positive at the games. I know the Chinese refused to pick one swimmer who had served their ban from 2008, but the only scandal from the recent worlds I can find was the Brazilian guy not being banned and more recently the aussies admitting they had a problem with their swimmers getting addicted to using caffine and sleeping pills.
If they are still widely using PEDS in Chinese swimming they are a lot better at hiding it than they were previously, including getting reports of bans removed from the internet

I think it is a disgrace that the American coach is suspecting foul play. Let's wait and see what the drug tests show before casting judgments. Agree fully with comment Ian Thorpe made earlier this morning.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Not as many as China. And no other country has exhibited China's blatant disregard for equality and competition as China has. The country is corrupt to the core.

The US has a long history not only of doping, but the covering up of doping by authorities there;
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/photoessay/top10-doping/index4.html

How many Chinese medallists have either been shown, or admitted, to being on drugs?

The BBC are reporting that Becky Adlington's last 50m of the 800m was also faster than Lochte's time - he must really have throttled back.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19062851

Oh well that's it, Adlington must be doping too.

Hang on people : yes her last lap was very fast , but if you look at the whole race she is nowhere near the men so that argument doesn't really hold up. If you show me a woman outpacing the men over the whole race distance then I would be suspicious , but this is just a great performance and no need to cast a shadow over it.
Yes the Chinese swimmers have "form" from years ago , but that should not be a reason to doubt all their current stars ...

Any winner might be cheating , but in the absence of any real evidence I reckon we should assume anyone who tests clean , is clean.

Accusations without evidence just sound like sour grapes.

IMO that swim is strange and should be investigated...she should be tested,

HOWEVER

if she is clean and didnt cheat then fair play to her

innocent until proven guility though

Just to draw a final line under this, read this:


http://www.dermothunt.com/blog/?p=178

Daily mail type response from that American then. Imbecile.

Balding as well???!

ShahenshahG wrote:Balding as well???!

Why does her hairline have anything to do with it?

Just checking its not Andy Parsons

GG wrote:16 year old female beating Lochte's final 50 metres. Not sure that's even biologically possible? How can her muscles develop the power of a 30 year old man? I smell a rat...

It is easily possible, biologically. At her age, the body grows faster and stronger than at any stage other than infancy. With the right conditioning, diet and technical training it should not be considered impossible

It is true that they have a dodgy history but the USA isn't exactly whiter than white when it comes to drugs abuse. Pots and kettles spring to mind.

The matter has been investigated by the IOC and Ye's sample has come back clear. I'm more suspicious of the American team's coach for making this suggestion than I am that China are cheating.

The swimming event is a traditional high medal earner for the USA. They are being challenged at these Games as never before and the clear threat is from China. Given the American public's obsession..... even to the extent of fiddling the medals table at Beijing..... with being able to call themselved "#1" to fall behind China in the pool must be a very bitter pill to swallow.

The American swimming team must be under great pressure from their public and if they are unable to beat the Chinese in the pool, then it isn't beyond the bounds of probability that they wouldn't stoop to attempting to discredit the Chinese.

The easiest way to do that is to make pre-emptive statements about drugs abuse. If the sample does indeed reveal abuse, they are vindicated in an "I told you so" way that will enable them to throw out accusations in future with impunity. If the sample comes back clean, they can then mutter "Using masking agents" and the mud still sticks.

We should be wary of making judgements without evidence, or at face value from people who have a vested interest in discrediting an opponent.


.

CF wrote:IMO that swim is strange and should be investigated...she should be tested,

HOWEVER

if she is clean and didnt cheat then fair play to her

innocent until proven guility though

All athletes in the games are investigated and tested routinely. As the games organisers pointed out she has been tested, and will continue to be subject to in and out of competition testing.
The "suspicious" nature of this result has been exagerated too, as its been pointed out already its hardly unprecedented and misrepresented by the American coaches rant. Theres even been another teenager do a similar thing at these games without raining an eyebrow.
China has invested a lot in cleaning up its athletes over the last few years, they only put so much resources into them in the first place to build national image. Having them busted as drug cheats doesnt help that, quite the opposite. If they are using things its likely to be something thats not on the banned list, like the Aussies were.
Whilst China does have itself to blame with its past history if accusations are chucked out I cant help but agree with the linked blog above, theres an element of racism here.

How about we investigate the British Mens gymnasts whove gone from decades of being nobodies to olympic medal winners? Course wouldve been a silver had the British judges score stood for the Japanese chaps horse...

Jennifer1984 wrote:

GG wrote:16 year old female beating Lochte's final 50 metres. Not sure that's even biologically possible? How can her muscles develop the power of a 30 year old man? I smell a rat...

It is easily possible, biologically. At her age, the body grows faster and stronger than at any stage other than infancy. With the right conditioning, diet and technical training it should not be considered impossible

How does any of that make it 'biologically possible' for a not fully developed girl to better a 27 year old man??

I have not seen one arena where strength and endurance are so fundamental where women out perform men. It just doesn't happen. That's to take nothing away from female competitors, they're still phenomenal, but take someone like Paula Radcliffe - unbelievabley brilliant but even her world record (blasting every other female competitor ever out the water) is still a long way off the men's WR.

A 27 year old man not remarkable in his own field slowing down at the end because hes miles ahead against the rest vs a 16 year old gold medallist who is trying her heart out?

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Jennifer1984 wrote:

GG wrote:16 year old female beating Lochte's final 50 metres. Not sure that's even biologically possible? How can her muscles develop the power of a 30 year old man? I smell a rat...

It is easily possible, biologically. At her age, the body grows faster and stronger than at any stage other than infancy. With the right conditioning, diet and technical training it should not be considered impossible

How does any of that make it 'biologically possible' for a not fully developed girl to better a 27 year old man??

I have not seen one arena where strength and endurance are so fundamental where women out perform men. It just doesn't happen. That's to take nothing away from female competitors, they're still phenomenal, but take someone like Paula Radcliffe - unbelievabley brilliant but even her world record (blasting every other female competitor ever out the water) is still a long way off the men's WR.

She didnt beat Lochtes time though, she swam faster going flat out than he did when coasting...looking at he whole distance he was noticeably faster and clearly capable of even more. If youre going to rant about something at least bother to check your facts first

And can you explain how it would be biologically impossible for a teenage girl to beat a 27 year old man?

Rebecca Addlington's final 50m in the 800m freestyle at last years World Championship was faster than either Locthe's or Ye's.
That was after swimming 750m, not 350.
Is she as drug cheat?
The Lithuanian girl who won the breastroke has improved her time by around 4% in a year, compared to Ye improving her time by 2% since 2010.
Is she a drug cheat?

Lower testosterone levels for a start. If it wasn't an issue then why would there be such a concern over Castor Semenya?

When, in the history of sport, has a child beaten an adult or a woman beaten a man at a strength and endurance event?

The greatest female marathon runner ever cannot get within 12 mins of the mens WR. 10 secs is pretty much qualifying standard in the mens 100m but women can't even break 10.5 (WR 10.49).

Who lifts more weight do you think? Men or women?

For the record a) I've gone past discussing this Chinese swimmer and am responding to Jennifer and PSW gender specific points; and 2) I'm not trying to discredit female athletes, just point out facts fully supported by unquestionable evidence.

Let's hope that the millions of young girls who watched Ye's brilliant swim will be inspired to take up the sport and that they're not dissuaded by this American coach's bitter jealousy.

Its pretty disgusting but typically arrogant that a US coach comes out and makes slanderous accusations with no evidence, compounded by a news media that just loves to jump on the bandwagon.
Even in sport the US has to lead the free world .....no doubt they will invade the Chinese changing rooms, destroy them completely, award the re build to Halliburton, set up a sympathetic regime and find the source of the imaginary dope used so they can then corner the market

It's only a matter of time before they turn on the French!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's only a matter of time before they turn on the French!

Who will admit to it immediately and give all their medals to the US.

You forgot the shrugging.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Lower testosterone levels for a start. If it wasn't an issue then why would there be such a concern over Castor Semenya?

When, in the history of sport, has a child beaten an adult or a woman beaten a man at a strength and endurance event?

The greatest female marathon runner ever cannot get within 12 mins of the mens WR. 10 secs is pretty much qualifying standard in the mens 100m but women can't even break 10.5 (WR 10.49).

Who lifts more weight do you think? Men or women?

For the record a) I've gone past discussing this Chinese swimmer and am responding to Jennifer and PSW gender specific points; and 2) I'm not trying to discredit female athletes, just point out facts fully supported by unquestionable evidence.

Theres lots of teenage girls who can swim faster than me (even when I was 27), especially when if I wasnt trying. But Ok yes the point we were making there is just playing around with the literal interpretation of what you said to make you seem stupid, not really addressing the issue.
All she did was swim faster on one split of the race when he was cruising. What is impossible about that? The sections where he was trying he was far faster. She hasnt improved her best time by an unprecedented amount, and swimming records are regularly broken because frankly the standards of competition havent been very good historically ...especially in the womens events. Your argument is not based on the facts of what happened, nor was your assertion that China had filed drugs tests and sent athletes home from the games.
Its quite clear you want to beleive that the lass cheated, and are then trying to invent arguments that fit that. But if you look at the actual evidence its pretty flimsy and largely built on an assumption that the Chinese cheat because they are evil, essentially the argument of someone who watched too many Fu Man Chu movies.

Crimey wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's only a matter of time before they turn on the French!

Who will admit to it immediately and give all their medals to the US.

Bazinga.

none of the 3 mate- there have just heavily invested in olympic sport and have the population and resources to make it work.

By the way sadly i think many cheat(dope), and i wouldnt be surprised if they and many other countries did on a mass scale- but id rather take the approach innocent untill provenguilty

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Lower testosterone levels for a start. If it wasn't an issue then why would there be such a concern over Castor Semenya?

When, in the history of sport, has a child beaten an adult or a woman beaten a man at a strength and endurance event?

The greatest female marathon runner ever cannot get within 12 mins of the mens WR. 10 secs is pretty much qualifying standard in the mens 100m but women can't even break 10.5 (WR 10.49).

Who lifts more weight do you think? Men or women?

For the record a) I've gone past discussing this Chinese swimmer and am responding to Jennifer and PSW gender specific points; and 2) I'm not trying to discredit female athletes, just point out facts fully supported by unquestionable evidence.

Theres lots of teenage girls who can swim faster than me (even when I was 27), especially when if I wasnt trying. But Ok yes the point we were making there is just playing around with the literal interpretation of what you said to make you seem stupid, not really addressing the issue.
All she did was swim faster on one split of the race when he was cruising. What is impossible about that? The sections where he was trying he was far faster. She hasnt improved her best time by an unprecedented amount, and swimming records are regularly broken because frankly the standards of competition havent been very good historically ...especially in the womens events. Your argument is not based on the facts of what happened, nor was your assertion that China had filed drugs tests and sent athletes home from the games.
Its quite clear you want to beleive that the lass cheated, and are then trying to invent arguments that fit that. But if you look at the actual evidence its pretty flimsy and largely built on an assumption that the Chinese cheat because they are evil, essentially the argument of someone who watched too many Fu Man Chu movies.

This.

mowgli wrote:Its pretty disgusting but typically arrogant that a US coach comes out and makes slanderous accusations with no evidence, compounded by a news media that just loves to jump on the bandwagon.
Even in sport the US has to lead the free world .....no doubt they will invade the Chinese changing rooms, destroy them completely, award the re build to Halliburton, set up a sympathetic regime and find the source of the imaginary dope used so they can then corner the market

and this.

This episode perfectly illustrates the US still trying to fight the big red dog, their attitude that sporting brilliance cannot emanate from what they call a totalitarian regime, that only a country that prides itself on militarism, evades social responsibility and exports it's own unique form of imperialism can produce sporting anomalies

Phelps just lost butterfly final....better have Chinese food tonight!

The USA have big issues with china. But what do they expect - with money , drive, the genetic motivation they clearly have and the massive population its just a logical outcome that they will keep getting the most medals for a long time to come!

Chad Le Clos to be accused of being on drugs tonight?