Cut the nose to spite the face

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Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:13 pm

Did they just cut the nose to spite the face ?

Yes indeed ECB cut their nose to spite their face.

With 7000 runs, 88 tests @ 50+ average, a big 100 in his last overseas innings in Lanka to keep England hanging in as No. 1 and another big hundred in what was defnitely his LAST test to yet again keep them hanging by a flimsy thread as No.1....KP's status as their biggest superstar in the last 3 decades and a legend in English cricket is already confirmed.


The intent obviously was to "hit back and hurt back".......instead of finding ways to reconcile and move forward.
Unfortunately ECB's timing was as bad as their intent.
.
If it was repraminding and putting down a newbie with 20 odd tests and 1500 runs.....then ECB's intent to "hit back and hurt" may have worked.......but here they have probably added martyrdom to an exisiting superstardom.

KP could have finished with 9000 or even 10,000 runs in the next 3 years....even without those extra 2,000 runs runs..nothing changes in his standing as a cricketer...the loser is English cricket.

An extraordinary batsman, who served England well for long, a flawed genius who acknowledged his flawed emotionalism and one who took severeal steps towards reconcillation....the super star who was made a martyr today by the bureaucrats who did a classic " cut their nose to spite their own face"......is how history would sum it up when dust settles over this issue.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:16 pm

So if it was a younger player, with less experience doing this, and the ECB reacted in this way it would be fine? But because it is KP, it is wrong? No one man is bigger than the team
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by GSC on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:18 pm

Another............. well balanced.... and neutral..... argument clap

Riveting....stuff as always

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:19 pm

Olly wrote:So if it was a younger player, with less experience doing this, and the ECB reacted in this way it would be fine? But because it is KP, it is wrong? No one man is bigger than the team

did I say it would have been fine ?

I said they would have been successfull in hitting back and hurting whihc is their intent.

the intent would have been as malicious then as it is now....only that then they might have succeeded in their malicious intent.,...now even that has failed.

They have turned him into a martyr.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:23 pm

Olly wrote:So if it was a younger player, with less experience doing this, and the ECB reacted in this way it would be fine? But because it is KP, it is wrong? No one man is bigger than the team

Olly makes a fair point. If Ravi Bopara had acted in a similar way, many of those now supporting Pietersen would be hurling grenades at the Essex batsman.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:29 pm

KP_fan wrote:

An extraordinary batsman, who served England well for long, a flawed genius who acknowledged his flawed emotionalism and one who took severeal steps towards reconcillation....the super star who was made a martyr today by the bureaucrats who did a classic " cut their nose to spite their own face"......is how history would sum it up when dust settles over this issue.

Possibly.

An alternative view might be - An extraordinary batsman whose massive talent was exceeded only by his disregard for his team mates and lack of commonn sense.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:36 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
KP_fan wrote:

An extraordinary batsman, who served England well for long, a flawed genius who acknowledged his flawed emotionalism and one who took severeal steps towards reconcillation....the super star who was made a martyr today by the bureaucrats who did a classic " cut their nose to spite their own face"......is how history would sum it up when dust settles over this issue.

Possibly.

An alternative view might be - An extraordinary batsman whose massive talent was exceeded only by his disregard for his team mates and lack of commonn sense.

Yeah....if ECB get's to write the history sure those will be the words.

However unfortunately for ECB in the free electronic world and blogosphere of today unlike 30 years back......they cannot manufacture and impose opinions.

Also ECB takes the No.1 ranking today.........beating WICB and BCCI laughing
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by GSC on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:38 pm

Alternatively your words will be chosen if rabid KP fans get to write it over neutral opinions.

Seriously, at least try to maintain an air of neutrality.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 6:16 pm

KP_fan wrote:

However unfortunately for ECB in the free electronic world and blogosphere of today unlike 30 years back......they cannot manufacture and impose opinions.

KP_fan - I think this is where you are missing a point and Pietersen has at best been rather naive.

'30 years back' and more it was not unknown for England Test cricketers to have a strong grumble in person to their opponents about the England set up and team mates. A certain fiery fast bowler from Yorkshire particularly comes to mind.

However, generally he and others got away with it as there was no clear evidence of what had gone on and been stated. That has all changed with the electronic age. Pietersen seems more than willing to embrace such technology but incapable of realising that it leaves a clear and permanent record that can come back to haunt him.

If he really feels the need to complain about the England Test team, he should at least have the common sense to appreciate that there will be consequences if he communicates his views in a modern way that can easily be shown to others.

I don't know enough about the current situation to properly comment upon the actions of the EWCB but it cannot be overlooked that Pietersen has brought a lot of the problems on himself - and us!

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by skyeman on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 6:40 pm

Shame for all.

KP recently TWEETED that he very much hopes to get back into the England fold.

KP please use your mouth (wisely) and not technology Shocked

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Mike Selig on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 6:51 pm

Can I just first of all say I wish people would stop pretending that complex issues such as this one are (indeed can be) black and white? They're not. In fact there are so many issues at stake here that it is ridiculous to think it could be.

1) The dressing-room atmosphere factor.

Let's start off by saying that Pietersen is not a nice person. His primary concern is himself, but beyond having that streak of selfishness and obvious arrogance, he just simply isn't very nice. I know this through conversations with people who have been involved at various times with this England team, and county cricket. This is not meant to be seen as criticism of KP - I would argue that some selfishness and arrogance is required to be an all-time great in any sport (although Pietersen isn't that yet, and probably never will be now IMO), so how can this be a bad thing?

Now it is very easy to have someone like KP (personality wise) in a team as long as he is performing and the team is winning. As long as this was the case, the rest of the team can simply shrug their shoulders, ignore KP's moods and rest content in the knowledge that by playing for himself he is helping the team win.

The problem is England aren't really winning at the moment. First they got hammered in the UAE, then they failed to beat a very mediocre SL side, then came scratchy performances against the WI, and now the SA series. This is no longer a unified England dressing room. Moreover KP failed miserably in the UAE; when he goes off on one, the other players can thus turn around and say "it's very good for you to say this now, but where were you 9 months ago?"

2) KP as a player.

Let's get this one out of the way. Certainly in England's best XI, one of their 3 best batsmen (alongside Cook and Bell) and 5 best players (add in Anderson and Swann - I am going by overall quality and not just recent form). He is not however amongst the very very top batsmen in the world at the moment. What he is is a genuine match-winner whoom every team in the world fears, and would want in their team (based purely on cricketing ability). He is a very special player, but will be remembered more as a Dennis Compton or Brian Lara then a Tendulkar.

Whatever. Based purely on cricketing ability he gets into any side in the world.

It should also be noted that he practices incredibly hard (reportedly harder than anyone else in the England side). Whatever accusations you can throw at KP, lazy isn't one of them.

3) The build-up.

What follows is conjecture, but it is likely this situation has been building for the best part of a year. It is noticeable that Swann and KP don't get on all that well, and are probably the 2 biggest egos in the team. It is also true that recent ill-feeling has coincided with Swann's patchy form. I don't believe for a second that Swann had anything to do with the mock twitter account, but I think it is likely that jokes were made in the dressing-room about it, and not necessarily in the best of spirit.

4) The current bust-up.

The facts are still hazy, but certainly KP's comments after the test were incredibly ill-timed and thought out. It then frankly took him a lot longer than it should have to apologise and attempt to seek a truce. But he eventually did, and that could and maybe should have been that.

So what are these texts? We don't know for sure, but it seems likely KP did send them, and A. Flower is not the type to overreact, so either they were as derogatory as is being made out (in which case there can be no excuse) or it's simply a case of the straw that broke the back. Having been involved as a coach in a couple of dressing-room bust ups, we all have our point of no-return. Quite possibly Flower has reached his, which is not good news for Pietersen.

5) My conclusion.

My personal sympathy will side with the coach - if KP did indeed send those texts then there is no defence possible. There is no excuse for an international cricketer, no matter how talented, to behave as he has done off the pitch in recent times. The least we can and should require of our athletes is to behave as international cricketers whether on the field or not. Flower has taken a strong stance, and IMO the right one, in particular in light of England's recent struggles. Even should they lose this series (and they may not, sometimes this kind of thing can galvanise a team into action) they can now build from fresh, without what has obviously become a corrosive effect, regardless of how good he is.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 7:34 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
KP_fan wrote:

However unfortunately for ECB in the free electronic world and blogosphere of today unlike 30 years back......they cannot manufacture and impose opinions.

KP_fan - I think this is where you are missing a point and Pietersen has at best been rather naive.

'30 years back' and more it was not unknown for England Test cricketers to have a strong grumble in person to their opponents about the England set up and team mates. A certain fiery fast bowler from Yorkshire particularly comes to mind.

However, generally he and others got away with it as there was no clear evidence of what had gone on and been stated. That has all changed with the electronic age. Pietersen seems more than willing to embrace such technology but incapable of realising that it leaves a clear and permanent record that can come back to haunt him.

If he really feels the need to complain about the England Test team, he should at least have the common sense to appreciate that there will be consequences if he communicates his views in a modern way that can easily be shown to others.

I don't know enough about the current situation to properly comment upon the actions of the EWCB but it cannot be overlooked that Pietersen has brought a lot of the problems on himself - and us!

1)Really is it proved what KP texted ? If yes what did he text ?


2)and what about Flower who publicly stated door is closed for KP for T20 world cup when he "un-retired" himself couple of weeks back.
Note the emphasis is on publicly.........Flower could have his opinions about KP and he can express them to the ECB / selectors...why he can say something / anything about a KP in public to the media ?
what action was taken against Flower for stating to the media what he should be saying only in closed door meetings ?

3)what about an explanation from ECB.....HOW the discussions between KP and ECB in closed doors were leaked to media ?
Who was fired or reprimanded for this act of indiscipline?
or because there are too many suspects involved in a murder....every one gets away...and it is deemed a murder was not comitted ?

from where many neutrals would look at in the absence of answers to the above ..the situation appears like...
-coach / ECB disliked a player
-coach / ECB disparaged him publicly
-coach / ECB leaked his private discussions in public to further manipulate public opinion against him
-as set-up and choked by by coach /ECB..... the temperamental player broke emotionally in public
--some of his emotional utternaces and some unverifable texts were used as a flimsy guise, to take actions , chop his head off ....and set an example for others

they targeted him--they fixed him--they nailed him.....maan Tailban would be proud of trhis modus operandi Shocked





Last edited by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by gboycottnut on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 7:45 pm

"30 years back' and more it was not unknown for England Test cricketers to have a strong grumble in person to their opponents about the England set up and team mates. A certain fiery fast bowler from Yorkshire particularly comes to mind.

However, generally he and others got away with it as there was no clear evidence of what had gone on and been stated. "

30 years back there wasn't Internet access available which allowed players to put themselves into difficult compromising situations. Just imagine what a certain Bob Willis would have come out with after that Headingley 1981 test match had Twitter been around back then.


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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by msp83 on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 7:47 pm

If only Koaches and board CEOS could score the runs and take the wickets for the team when needed.
Andy Flower was a widely respected batsman of true world class,, and as a coach he has earned the respect over the last 3 years.
But as I maintained in the Chris Gayle situation, the success of the coach is not on enforcing his personality but bringing together players, who are human and not robots for a collective. Human beings are different and they are all not programmed to behave the same on every single issue at all points of life.
KP of course has been a bit of a trouble for quite some time. But at the same time other things have to be brought into the context. The way he became part of the English cricket fraternity is a starter. He's the kind of player who would want to be asured of his being wanted and loved. Anyone here remember his reaction after scoring a hundred, thing 152 at the HQ during the last SA tour? He has to always battle the outsider tag and its not easy at all. Particulary after what happened with the captaincy debacle and all.
I remember Graeme Swann has had a few rather unflattering things to say about Pietersen in his book. Was he dropped for any test match because of that? England has had very tallented but highly egotistic cricketers in the past, Fred Trueman, Geoffrey Boycott, Ian Botham, and to a lesser extend Andrew Flintoff. All of them are English cricket legends.
Andy Flower, who gave up his career for democracy in his country, could and should have handled the situation far better. Particularly after KP's video interview of yesterday, this was far, far too much from an organization that used its power to organize a targeted leak campaign and witch hunt against a dificult star player who was putting some tough demands on them.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 9:12 pm

msp83 wrote:If only Koaches and board CEOS could score the runs and take the wickets for the team when needed.
Andy Flower was a widely respected batsman of true world class,, and as a coach he has earned the respect over the last 3 years.
But as I maintained in the Chris Gayle situation, the success of the coach is not on enforcing his personality but bringing together players, who are human and not robots for a collective. Human beings are different and they are all not programmed to behave the same on every single issue at all points of life.
KP of course has been a bit of a trouble for quite some time. But at the same time other things have to be brought into the context. The way he became part of the English cricket fraternity is a starter. He's the kind of player who would want to be asured of his being wanted and loved. Anyone here remember his reaction after scoring a hundred, thing 152 at the HQ during the last SA tour? He has to always battle the outsider tag and its not easy at all. Particulary after what happened with the captaincy debacle and all.
I remember Graeme Swann has had a few rather unflattering things to say about Pietersen in his book. Was he dropped for any test match because of that? England has had very tallented but highly egotistic cricketers in the past, Fred Trueman, Geoffrey Boycott, Ian Botham, and to a lesser extend Andrew Flintoff. All of them are English cricket legends.
Andy Flower, who gave up his career for democracy in his country, could and should have handled the situation far better. Particularly after KP's video interview of yesterday, this was far, far too much from an organization that used its power to organize a targeted leak campaign and witch hunt against a dificult star player who was putting some tough demands on them.

some good points there. There were two clear ways for Flower to handle this:

1) Want to resolve the problem ( i.e have KP in the team)....he sees it early, acts proactively, with flexibilty and finds ways of accomodating a solution...which someone in his poistion of power and early actions would have enabled.

2) Wants to break it ( no KP in the team)...sees the problem early, stirs it up subtely such as letting Swann say what he wants to write what he wants to against KP, leaking private discussions with KP in publioc, making statements about antiKP in public that should be made privately.....
Drive KP to further rebellion and emotional break down and use that as guider to break it completely.

Flower chose the 2nd path....let it grow and break.......he would rather "control" a No. 5 team then have a star bigger than him in the No.1 team.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by GSC on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 9:28 pm

Lmao do you lot read what you post?

Flower, the coach under which England have rocketed up to #1, actually wants to lose just to spite poor, innocent KP. You guys really need to think these things through.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 9:32 pm

KP_fan wrote:

Flower .... would rather "control" a No. 5 team then have a star bigger than him in the No.1 team.

And Flower texted that to you, I presume.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 9:59 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
KP_fan wrote:

Flower .... would rather "control" a No. 5 team then have a star bigger than him in the No.1 team.

And Flower texted that to you, I presume.

Yeah there is nothing called Perosnality Analysis...things in thjis world become known only when they are explicitly sms-ed Very Happy


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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 10:00 pm

GSC wrote:Lmao do you lot read what you post?

Flower, the coach under which England have rocketed up to #1, actually wants to lose just to spite poor, innocent KP. You guys really need to think these things through.

since he did not choose path 1).....and instead chose path 2)...that is indeed what it implies
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by GSC on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 10:00 pm

Right.

And I'm implying you should engage your brain and think about this properly
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 10:06 pm

GSC wrote:Right.

And I'm implying you should engage your brain and think about this properly

I have reviewed many times.......and concurr...he / ECB would rather take a mid table position and appear to be "in complete control"...then have a super star bigger than him /them and be on top.....

the fact would be further validated at the end of Eng's winter tour of India.....they would have dropped to somewhere in the midts of the table and still in fall
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by GSC on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 10:06 pm

Review it again.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 10:26 pm

GSC wrote:Review it again.

I will at the end of the year...and acknowledge if it proves otehrwise.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by skyeman on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 10:37 pm

Flower will always demand the highest standards, both on and off the field from his players.

To suggest otherwise is nonsence.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Biltong on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 10:44 pm

I think saying the ECB has now made KP a martyr is taking things a little too far.

They refused to make public the content of the tweets. That in itslef means they feel it will be more damaging to let it be known, so they rather keep it away from pulic scrutiny.

KP may be a very good cricketer, but it is a team sport. If a player is out of line once, you can take it as a one off blow out, when a pplayer does it a second time, he needs a stern warning, if he is a continuous bad influence on team morale then it becomes a problem.

A lot of what is being discussed here is speculative and assumptions.

The fact that KP has been dropped from the team, suggests that the tweets and relationship between not only Flower and KP, bur also the team and KP has been damaged to a point where the ECB is taking a stand.

The problem has to do with trust and respect, whatever was said in those tweets may have irrevocably damaged both respect and trust.

If that is the case, there isn't much hope that it can be repaired. Wat if the team stood together and said to Flower they have had enough, it is either him or them. Unfortunately KP can't be 11 men, he is only one.

Just saying.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by skyeman on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 10:51 pm

Well at least one less SA in the the side (no offence bt) for others to have a dig at. Very Happy

Still think though with sensible heads he can make it back Wink

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Biltong on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 10:58 pm

skyeman wrote:Well at least one less SA in the the side (no offence bt) for others to have a dig at. Very Happy

Still think though with sensible heads he can make it back Wink
How many left after he is out? Whistle
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 12:21 am

There have to be limits. No matter how flexible and accomodating you are (and past experience shows us Flower is plenty of that) there have to be limits. And these limits are the same for everyone, you don't make special allowances because it's KP (you of course make allowances for every player differently in other regards, but limits are absolutes).

I have no idea what limits Flower has set, but suggest that if the rumours are true then that is the wrong side of any sensible limits. As is walking off smiling when you've just got out (as Gayle did - WI were right to drop him initially). As is turning up for a game you've been made 12th man without your whites (as happened to me).

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by DouglasJardinesbox on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 4:21 am

This stinks of double standards. I think you'll find 'consistency' features highly in any management book. The ECB are consistent indeed....of having these double standards. In any office environment, your first move when signs of trouble appear is to move quickly with an aim to resolve. We have seen the opposite here.....

A few years ago, #5 in the rankings would have been welcome......

I'd be happy if KP retires from all international cricket. As long as Flower is shown the door as well......and Strauss if his batting doesn't move up 3 gears...

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Hibbz on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 7:25 am

I'm totally biased towards Kevin because I just adore watching him bat and therefore in no position to give comment as to who's in the right and who's in the wrong but I will say this, my interest in and my desire for England to win the 3rd test just dropped massively.

Maybe once the match starts I'll be enthusiastic but right it's just how I feel.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 8:15 am

Yeah...answeribility from ECB is the key here...
How does Flower get away talking stuff about KP to media that should be discussed only closed door with ECB ?
How does ECB get away leaking private discussions and not holding anyone responsible ?

It is pure 100% one sided targetting of KP.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by eirebilly on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 8:43 am

KP is a martyr? To whom?

This whole thing is a joke with all parties at fault. The ECB for really not managing this well, Kp for seriously being dumb and looking for trouble and KP's publicist for advising him to breach his contract and make the video interview.

KP had genuine worries about the schedule and the ECB did'nt entertain the idea of at least reviewing the system with a possibility of change which is wrong in my books.

KP has made an absolute arse of himself since, as he has done at many other clubs (and country SA) throughout his career. The text messages (have not seen them but they have been deemed bad) where the final straw and left the ECB with no other choice than to drop him. He is a huge loss and nobody wins out in these situations.

Both KP and the ECB really have to take long hard looks at themselves here. Ridiculoes from both sides and have both embarrassed cricket through this.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Fists of Fury on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 9:04 am

Hibbz wrote:I'm totally biased towards Kevin because I just adore watching him bat and therefore in no position to give comment as to who's in the right and who's in the wrong but I will say this, my interest in and my desire for England to win the 3rd test just dropped massively.

Maybe once the match starts I'll be enthusiastic but right it's just how I feel.

Worryingly, I feel similar. A crushing defeat to show that brilliant individuals, as opposed to "team trust and unity" win Test matches, probably would't go amiss.

For the ECB to talk of team trust and unity less than a month after leaking confidential information of their meetings with Pietersen to the media is utterly ludicrous.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 9:07 am

DouglasJardinesbox wrote:In any office environment, your first move when signs of trouble appear is to move quickly with an aim to resolve. We have seen the opposite here.....

Irrelevant because this is clearly not "the first signs of trouble". Those appeared probably in Sri Lanka, or at least when KP retired from ODIs. The management did move fairly swiftly, with the obvious message being "you're not special, you're part of a team, act like it". KP obviously didn't read the warnings.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 9:08 am

KP_fan wrote:How does Flower get away talking stuff about KP to media that should be discussed only closed door with ECB ?

Yes, of course, Flower as head coach shouldn't be allowed to discuss selection issues with the media... Whatever.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 9:15 am

eirebilly wrote:KP is a martyr? To whom?

This whole thing is a joke with all parties at fault. The ECB for really not managing this well, Kp for seriously being dumb and looking for trouble and KP's publicist for advising him to breach his contract and make the video interview.
.

Really was he dumb ?
Or was that the deal struck between ECB....KP you rub your nose on the ground and show solidarity etc publicly.....and we will give you what we comitt.

He did his part...and instead of doing their part to the deal.....ECB stuck a knife in his ribs.


The saga of treachery and betrayal will come out when KP speaks.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 9:20 am

Mike Selig wrote:
KP_fan wrote:How does Flower get away talking stuff about KP to media that should be discussed only closed door with ECB ?

Yes, of course, Flower as head coach shouldn't be allowed to discuss selection issues with the media... Whatever.

yes off course...Flower comitted a grave breach by making an airy fairy public opinion dismissing KP's return discussions ......when formal discussions were still ongoing with ECB.


There is a special treatment for Flower...and also Swann who wrote about KP in his book....and none of this dressing room harmony / respect your team mates mantras applied to Swann

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 9:28 am

here is as early as Oct 2011 that Michael Vaughan observed the dressing room harmony was shattered....and read on to see the culprit was Flower's darling boy Swann...
and what was the disciplinary action meted out to Swann by Flower or ECB ?? just some verbage on disappointment

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/michael-vaughan-blasts-graeme-swann-86428


Michael Vaughan blasts Graeme Swann over his dig at KP


MICHAEL VAUGHAN believes England’s dressing-room harmony has been damaged by Graeme Swann throwing the book at Kevin Pietersen.

MICHAEL VAUGHAN believes England’s dressing-room harmony has been damaged by Graeme Swann throwing the book at Kevin Pietersen.
In his new memoirs, Swann observed that Pietersen – sacked as England skipper after only three Tests in charge for demanding the removal of coach Peter Moores – was not a “natural leader”.

England’s team spirit is being tested in India after a heavy defeat in Delhi left them 2-0 down in their five-match series against the World Cup holders.


Now former England captain Vaughan, who gave Pietersen his international debut in 2004, is concerned that Swann’s comments may have cut deeper than anyone realised.

Vaughan said: “I can understand Swanny thinking that Kevin is not a natural leader because of the type of person he is, but he wasn’t really given a chance.

“It will probably linger in Kevin’s mind for the rest of his career that he never had a fair crack at the England captaincy and I don’t know what impact Swann’s book has had in the dressing room, but I’m sure it’s had some effect.

“I’ve never played in a side where one of your team-mates has made comments about a current colleague in his book like that.


“It’s the kind of thing you save for your last book, when your career’s over.

“Coach Andy Flower has already expressed his disappointment and I agree – while you’re still team-mates, you just have to zip it.

“Right man for the job or not, you can’t judge an England captain after only three Tests.

“I was only three games into my stint and we were 2-1 down against South Africa, when Ray Illingworth pronounced I wasn’t tough enough to be captain, but I like to think I did all right in the end.

“It takes a year to find your feet and for your team to start looking at you as their leader, and in that regard Kevin was treated harshly.”


He warned: “Kevin needs to be loved. All the flamboyant players who like the limelight, the ones I call X-factor players, are insecure.

“They enjoy the limelight because they want people to see them, but they need a bit of loving to deal with that insecurity.

“Kevin has always responded more to the carrot than the stick.

“You have to remind him, and make sure he believes, that he’s the one man who can do things no other player can do.





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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 9:32 am

Vaughan's observation not even being in the dressing room back in Oct 2011 were prophetic.

So why did Flower not see it ?

Or did he see it and turned a blind eye ?

passive encouragement ?
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Biltong on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 9:43 am

KP_fan wrote:Vaughan's observation not even being in the dressing room back in Oct 2011 were prophetic.

So why did Flower not see it ?

Or did he see it and turned a blind eye ?

passive encouragement ?

It is difficult to know what Flower saw and how he acted upon it. We might never know the full extent of this.
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Fists of Fury on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 9:58 am

Apparently the texts were solely about Strauss - there is one suggestion that KP gave Steyn advice on how to get him out Laugh

Like he needed it - Strauss cannot buy a run these days!

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:07 am

Fists of Fury wrote:Apparently the texts were solely about Strauss - there is one suggestion that KP gave Steyn advice on how to get him out Laugh

Like he needed it - Strauss cannot buy a run these days!
Exactly. A right armer bowling around the wicket or a left armer from over the wicket. Or any spinner who can bowl a few dot balls and Strauss will get out trying to sweep. I can tell that. Why do you need KP for that? Laugh

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by KP_fan on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:10 am

Biltong wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Vaughan's observation not even being in the dressing room back in Oct 2011 were prophetic.

So why did Flower not see it ?

Or did he see it and turned a blind eye ?

passive encouragement ?

It is difficult to know what Flower saw and how he acted upon it. We might never know the full extent of this.

some things are quite simple and binary.

Was Swann punished ?
Yes or No?
No Shocked

So Swann got away with special treatment after confirmed breach of dressing room morale.....because his book is for all to see.

KP got beheaded for text messages the content of which is unvalidated
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Fists of Fury on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:11 am

Is anyone of the opinion that this series should be Strauss' last, by the way? Not because of any issue with KP, obviously, but because of his inability to successfully see off the new ball on the majority of occasions?

Sadly, I think his time might be up, but he may linger on given our lack of an obvious replacement - unless Trott were to open.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Toadfish on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:12 am

One thing that is very clear from all this is that KP is a tool. If you can’t see that I fear must be leaning that way yourselves. Team sport is about trying to achieve synergy and if you have one man threatening this in any way you have to act and I for one am glad they have. Perhaps in the short term it might have a detrimental effect on the team i.e. the loss of talent but I think they will be the better for it in the long run. The one day team certainly didn’t feel his absence?

As for those prats who harp on about England not liking winners it’s funny that these comments usually come from the same people who let their team down on numerous occasions and justified it by claiming they were the ‘talent’. The likes of Flintoff, Gough, KP and in other sports Gascoigne, Henson, Cipriani etc bring a lot on their day but what’s the use if they end up bringing down those around them? Great players should inspire greatness in those around them and in this respect KP is found wanting.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:14 am

Swann was warned about future conduct after publishing his book.

KP has been warned numerous times.

In any case surely anyone can see there is a difference between writing a book and criticising your captain in texts sent to your opposition during a game?

Regardless of any wrong-doing from the ECB (and I agree with Eirebilly that they should have handled Pietersen's concerns about workloads better, and their policy that you have to play ODIs if you want to play T20s is foolish) what KP did is unacceptable and inexcusable.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:16 am

Fists of Fury wrote:Is anyone of the opinion that this series should be Strauss' last, by the way? Not because of any issue with KP, obviously, but because of his inability to successfully see off the new ball on the majority of occasions?

Sadly, I think his time might be up, but he may linger on given our lack of an obvious replacement - unless Trott were to open.

Off-topic, but I would say it's looking that way. Although your assessment about his batting is harsh, he's got quite a few starts this series hasn't he?

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:22 am

People saying that the ECB have had enough. Enough of what? Enough of the time spent at the No.1 spot in the Test rankings? So lets gift it away by dropping our best player. clap

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:27 am

Fists of Fury wrote:Is anyone of the opinion that this series should be Strauss' last, by the way? Not because of any issue with KP, obviously, but because of his inability to successfully see off the new ball on the majority of occasions?

Sadly, I think his time might be up, but he may linger on given our lack of an obvious replacement - unless Trott were to open.
Root looks fairly decent to me. Scored a 222 not out on a green top in a team total out of 360. Also a hundred for the Lions against the West Indies although even Strauss got runs against WI, so thats probably not a great indicator. But he looks a good, solid player of seam bowling. I have not seen him play spin but he is not too bad from what I've heard.

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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

Post by eirebilly on Mon 13 Aug 2012, 10:33 am

KP_fan;

Are you seriously implying that KP is totally innocent in this whole affair?
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Re: Cut the nose to spite the face

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