Cut the nose to spite the face

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Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Did they just cut the nose to spite the face ?

Yes indeed ECB cut their nose to spite their face.

With 7000 runs, 88 tests @ 50+ average, a big 100 in his last overseas innings in Lanka to keep England hanging in as No. 1 and another big hundred in what was defnitely his LAST test to yet again keep them hanging by a flimsy thread as No.1....KP's status as their biggest superstar in the last 3 decades and a legend in English cricket is already confirmed.


The intent obviously was to "hit back and hurt back".......instead of finding ways to reconcile and move forward.
Unfortunately ECB's timing was as bad as their intent.
.
If it was repraminding and putting down a newbie with 20 odd tests and 1500 runs.....then ECB's intent to "hit back and hurt" may have worked.......but here they have probably added martyrdom to an exisiting superstardom.

KP could have finished with 9000 or even 10,000 runs in the next 3 years....even without those extra 2,000 runs runs..nothing changes in his standing as a cricketer...the loser is English cricket.

An extraordinary batsman, who served England well for long, a flawed genius who acknowledged his flawed emotionalism and one who took severeal steps towards reconcillation....the super star who was made a martyr today by the bureaucrats who did a classic " cut their nose to spite their own face"......is how history would sum it up when dust settles over this issue.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 11:30 am

I am disappointed. I saw the title of this thread (without looking at its creator) and thought it was about Pietersen's book after he was axed from the England team. Now that REALLY IS cutting off your nose to spite your face. Wink


Last edited by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by seanmichaels on Tue 12 May 2015, 11:31 am

Pietersen is a c*nt.


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Post by LivinginItaly on Tue 12 May 2015, 11:46 am

For me the stupid thing in this whole saga is the ECB's decision to rule out ever picking KP. They have created this whole situation with urine poor PR skills and unnecessary announcements. There is no need to announce that KP's England career is over. They could have just not picked him for the squad citing numerous reasons (IPL involvement, lack of first class practice, others performing better, team rebuilding, giving new players a chance etc). When the selectors moved on from any past player they didn't feel it was necessary to rule out any further selection. So why they deemed it was necessary with KP is beyond me. Maybe they thought they would close the situation once and for all, instead they have backed themselves into a corner. Now it is impossible for them to reverse the decision with admitting they were wrong....something they will never do.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 12 May 2015, 12:03 pm

Bad PR skills and even worse Legal ones. Allowing themselves to be gagged from saying anything official until Pietersen published his "memoirs" was really dumb.

As you say last summer there would have been plenty of grounds for not selecting him on form grounds. Yet by "sacking" him they created this problem we have now. And lets face it a huge score against the worst First Class bowling attack in the world is good for the ego but, especially when they drop you four times before you reach a ton, not really indicative of how a player would go against Boult, Southee, Johnson, Harris and Starc.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 12 May 2015, 12:26 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Bad PR skills and even worse Legal ones. Allowing themselves to be gagged from saying anything official until Pietersen published his "memoirs" was really dumb.

As you say last summer there would have been plenty of grounds for not selecting him on form grounds. Yet by "sacking" him they created this problem we have now. And lets face it a huge score against the worst First Class bowling attack in the world is good for the ego but, especially when they drop you four times before you reach a ton, not really indicative of how a player would go against Boult, Southee, Johnson, Harris and Starc.

Tiger - I realise your idea of being well balanced is to increase the size of the chip on each of your shoulders but your comment about Pietersen being dropped ''four times'' before reaching ''a ton'' is simply untrue.

Yes, I was there but don't just take my word for what was witnessed. As described by Niall O'Brien, the Leics keeper, Pietersen was ''a world apart''.

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Post by Rowley on Tue 12 May 2015, 1:44 pm

Have to say when Pietersen was dropped/sacked I agreed with the decision. He had become a sideshow whose form did not justify the obvious effort in managing his "personality" shall we say. However have to say I am softening a little. If you highlight a certain player as being the root cause of the teams problems, you are by dint saying that the players removal will solve these problems. The evidence on the pitch and the general demenour of the team suggests this is not the case. As such you can't help but feel the ECB should perhaps be magnanamous to admit their error.

I am also coming round to the idea that they are treating KP somewhat shabbily. Accepted he can be difficult and to some extent brings some of his woes on himself, but what even his staunchest critics would not deny is his genuine desire to play for England. Understanding what we can of the situation it appears KP was told if he was to curtail his international commitments, get his head down in the county game and score some runs there may be a way back. KP thus far has done his part, to have the door slammed so definitively in his face seems unnecesarily cruel.

Shutting the door on him for the whole summer also seems slightly odd, if we find ourselves 2 down after two in the Ashes with top order batsmen failing to deliver in both tests and KP is still scoring for fun in the county game are they really saying there is no possibility they will give him a call? Seems more than a little pig headed to my mind.

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Post by msp83 on Tue 12 May 2015, 3:41 pm

The moment they picked one of the boys from the club to become the director or whatever, it was clear that all that was wanted was the cosy club to remain cosy.
Let all of them from the right families and schools with the ability to say for everything remain in the club.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 12 May 2015, 4:04 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Azzy wrote:If scoring 326 against Leicestershire was so easy, how comes it's not a weekly occurrence?

Very Happy

I could equally ask if KP is so great how come he doesnt do that on a weekly basis?

The problem remains that Div 2 of the CC is simply not a place with a igh enough standard of cricket to DEMAND selection purely on runs scored. Taylor had a season where he averaged over 60 there (when the quality was higher than it is now) and still couldnt get a cap till he moved up a division.

Im not completely dismissing his claims and clearly he has refound some form and confidence but the idea that one innings suddenly proves his point is completely unfounded. And its still doesnt change that Englands middle order is stacked with runs at the minute, unless they shift to 4 bowlers (they wont) there isnt a place for him in the test squad and thats where the focus is for england now.
I do believe he would genuinely strengthen the limited overs sides but England dont give a toopenny fluff about those right now, and wont want all the drama of having him back in just for some meaningless games which are being used to blood and develop players for the next 5 years.

KP has to shoulder some of the blame for this by cashing in and publishing that book. Its him who burnt his bridges by attacking people still involved with team so publicly. Its very frustating for everyone because if he wasnt such a rampant ego maniac and self publicist he probably wouldve had a much better career, rather than one which promised a lot then stalled badly.
England have been pushed in telling him firmly to F off by the level of clamour every time he picks up a bat, if anything its the level of noise his fan boys ..led by himself on twitter and the media...thats pushing the england set up to try and draw a permanent line under it just so they can concentrate on something else.

If England want an attacking middle order batsman then Hales is scoring as many runs against far superior bowling attacks,will be around for years to come rather than a stop gap, and doesnt come with all the baggage. As much as KP may be a good player if picking him was going to be the solution to all englands woes then frankly the side is in such a terminal mess we might as well all give up anyway.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 4:25 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Azzy wrote:If scoring 326 against Leicestershire was so easy, how comes it's not a weekly occurrence?

Very Happy

I could equally ask if KP is so great how come he doesnt do that on a weekly basis?

The problem remains that Div 2 of the CC is simply not a place with a igh enough standard of cricket to DEMAND selection purely on runs scored. Taylor had a season where he averaged over 60 there (when the quality was higher than it is now) and still couldnt get a cap till he moved up a division.

Im not completely dismissing his claims and clearly he has refound some form and confidence but the idea that one innings suddenly proves his point is completely unfounded. And its still doesnt change that Englands middle order is stacked with runs at the minute, unless they shift to 4 bowlers (they wont) there isnt a place for him in the test squad and thats where the focus is for england now.
I do believe he would genuinely strengthen the limited overs sides but England dont give a toopenny fluff about those right now, and wont want all the drama of having him back in just for some meaningless games which are being used to blood and develop players for the next 5 years.

KP has to shoulder some of the blame for this by cashing in and publishing that book. Its him who burnt his bridges by attacking people still involved with team so publicly. Its very frustating for everyone because if he wasnt such a rampant ego maniac and self publicist he probably wouldve had a much better career, rather than one which promised a lot then stalled badly.
England have been pushed in telling him firmly to F off by the level of clamour every time he picks up a bat, if anything its the level of noise his fan boys ..led by himself on twitter and the media...thats pushing the england set up to try and draw a permanent line under it just so they can concentrate on something else.

If England want an attacking middle order batsman then Hales is scoring as many runs against far superior bowling attacks,will be around for years to come rather than a stop gap, and doesnt come with all the baggage. As much as KP may be a good player if picking him was going to be the solution to all englands woes then frankly the side is in such a terminal mess we might as well all give up anyway.

Absolutely spot on. And as Simon Hughes points out - his test average has been heading southwards for the last TEN matches he played anyway so it was not just about the form in Australia in any case.
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Post by msp83 on Tue 12 May 2015, 4:39 pm

England middle order is full of runs? That's as strange as Strauss nonsense today!. Its only been Root and Ballance. Bell has been far too inconsistent for almost 2 years now, even in the West Indies, he couldn't score 200 runs despite starting the 3 match series with a ton. And Stokes or Ali, whoever is the all-rounder, they haven't convinced as a top 6 batter.
And when we dismiss Pietersen's triple ton effortlessly, it is interesting to see the same people going gaga on Cook's hundred against the West Indies, his first in 2 years....... Perhaps they are confused because the hundred came against a side that was ones represented by Holding, Marshall, Ambrose and Walsh?

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Post by msp83 on Tue 12 May 2015, 4:41 pm

And Cook's average has been heading where exactly for the last couple of years?

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 12 May 2015, 5:22 pm

msp83 wrote:The moment they picked one of the boys from the club to become the director or whatever, it was clear that all that was wanted was the cosy club to remain cosy.
Let all of them from the right families and schools with the ability to say for everything remain in the club.

Calm down, dear.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Tue 12 May 2015, 5:24 pm

There does have to be some element of trust or understanding in any team, and I highly doubt Pieterson has that with some of the England players at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, great innings but when you talk so publicly about your supposed friends and team mates, you only have yourself to blame if you don't get asked to play again.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 6:14 pm

PaulHv2 wrote:There does have to be some element of trust or understanding in any team, and I highly doubt Pieterson has that with some of the England players at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, great innings but when you talk so publicly about your supposed friends and team mates, you only have yourself to blame if you don't get asked to play again.

Absolutely.

Some of the players he attacked in his book have retired ie Swann and Prior but two others are still in the team in Anderson and Broad who he labelled as 'bullies'. So where is the merit in selecting a 34-year-old who has character assassinated the leading wicket taker in English test history (Anderson) and Broad (in top ten most wicket taking Englishman in test history).
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Post by msp83 on Tue 12 May 2015, 6:18 pm

So OK, I get it now, Kevin Pietersen was sacked for the book he published in October last year........
Oh wait!!

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Post by msp83 on Tue 12 May 2015, 6:20 pm

Think #Strausslogic is catching on to some here, perhaps they should apply for the 'consultant' post!

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Post by Azzy on Tue 12 May 2015, 6:31 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:So where is the merit in selecting a 34-year-old who has character assassinated the leading wicket taker in English test history  (Anderson) and Broad (in top ten most wicket taking Englishman in test history).
The merit is:

- He wants to play and be part of the team
- He's apologised to everyone he needs to apologise to
- Broad should never play for us again anyway, his fear of the short ball is going to see our tail going down the crapter against Australia
- He's the best batsman available for selection. Better than Cook, Root, Ballance. Miles better than Bell, Lyth, Carberry, Robson, Compton, Trott
- We're not so blessed with talent that we can afford to leave out generational talents. We're not Australia in the mid 90s.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 6:33 pm

msp83 wrote:So OK, I get it now, Kevin Pietersen was sacked for the book he published in October last year........
Oh wait!!

No he is not getting back into the team for being disruptive with afore-mentioned book. Pietersen sees Anderson and Broad as bullies. And you are advocating putting him back into the same team as them? That would A. Bound to have an effect on team moral B. How would KP mentally cope against two bullies?

But hey lets stop for a moment here. If they were such bullies as KP claims in his book then do you not steer clear of bullies? Heck ask anyone being bullied and you don't hang out where bullies are - you avoid the area like the plague. Unless, of course, it was all BS in his book? Wink
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 6:40 pm

Azzy wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:So where is the merit in selecting a 34-year-old who has character assassinated the leading wicket taker in English test history  (Anderson) and Broad (in top ten most wicket taking Englishman in test history).
The merit is:

- He wants to play and be part of the team
- He's apologised to everyone he needs to apologise to
- Broad should never play for us again anyway, his fear of the short ball is going to see our tail going down the crapter against Australia
- He's the best batsman available for selection. Better than Cook, Root, Ballance. Miles better than Bell, Lyth, Carberry, Robson, Compton, Trott
- We're not so blessed with talent that we can afford to leave out generational talents. We're not Australia in the mid 90s.

Point one - Why does he want to be part of a team full of bullies? Or was that BS in his book. Anyone that has ever been bullied will tell you they avoid areas they hang out like a plague.

Point two - He says. But frankly his word is worth what exactly?

Point three - Broad will soon pass Bob Willis in all-time wicket taking and is primaily a bowler so who batting form is secondary.

Point four - No he isn't. In his last ten tests he has averaged 34. Ballance is averaging over 50 as is Root and Cook's is probably better as well and the rest in any case have no bullying issues with the rest of the team.

Point five - He is past his best. Read up on Simon Hughes thoughts on him which I fully agree.
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Post by msp83 on Tue 12 May 2015, 6:44 pm

So did KP give a copy of the upcoming book to Paul Downton in Jan 2014? Was it after reading it that Downton realized he would be disruptive?
As I said, #Strausslogic at work!!

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 6:48 pm

KP is so dense he probably had the ECB proof read it for him. Laugh
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 12 May 2015, 8:53 pm

PaulHv2 wrote:There does have to be some element of trust or understanding in any team, and I highly doubt Pieterson has that with some of the England players at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, great innings but when you talk so publicly about your supposed friends and team mates, you only have yourself to blame if you don't get asked to play again.
How about they be men, put their differences aside and do what they're paid to do and play cricket together. I work with tw*ts everyday, so do you and Bob around the corner - doesn't mean we don't work in a team together.
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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:02 pm

It does amaze me that some people seem to believe that the current England captain, the former England captain, the former England coach(es), the current England coach, the head of the ECB and the chairman of selectors, some of whom had tried desperately to reintergrate KP after 'textgate', all just suddenly decided to take and/or support the unprecedented move of sacking him from his position, not because he had done something wrong, but because they all just decided they didn't like him very much.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:04 pm

Completely different environment playing in a competitive sports team, to working in an office. Not even remotely the same and can't be compared.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:09 pm

Olly wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:There does have to be some element of trust or understanding in any team, and I highly doubt Pieterson has that with some of the England players at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, great innings but when you talk so publicly about your supposed friends and team mates, you only have yourself to blame if you don't get asked to play again.
How about they be men, put their differences aside and do what they're paid to do and play cricket together. I work with tw*ts everyday, so do you and Bob around the corner - doesn't mean we don't work in a team together.

But there are your basic tw*ts and there are those into character assassination, betraying team-mates and breaking team rules on more than one occasion. And as Hoggy Bear says are all of those people he lists wrong and KP right. And I say again if Anderson and Broad are bullies as he accuses in his book WTF does he want to work alongside bullies again for? Something stinks in KP's book and I'd say it isn't his team-mates.
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Post by Azzy on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:12 pm

Flintoff, Vaughan and plenty of others all say KP is a great guy in the locker room. Only when the Cosy Club (TM) was incorporated did things turn against KP. I'd say they were fed up of the world-class superstar, with the money, media coverage, charisma and women getting all the credit for the team's success, and they set out to get rid of him.

Cosy Club 2-0 English cricket

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:19 pm

Azzy wrote:Flintoff, Vaughan and plenty of others all say KP is a great guy in the locker room. Only when the Cosy Club (TM) was incorporated did things turn against KP. I'd say they were fed up of the world-class superstar, with the money, media coverage, charisma and women getting all the credit for the team's success, and they set out to get rid of him.

Cosy Club 2-0 English cricket

Sorry? I must have missed their books dishing dirt. Oh no that was KP wasn't it? I say again - he 'claims' Anderson and Broad are bullies well ask anyone who has been bullied and they certainly don't want to be in the company of people that have bullied them. It leads me strongly to believe his allegations were BS to sell his book.
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Post by LivinginItaly on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:38 pm

I might be wrong but i believe KP was claiming that certain members of the England team bullied other members of the team, which was supposedly also noticed by the opposition. But correct me if i am wrong, i don't think KP ever said he was a victim of their bullying. Can you really see KP being bullied by Anderson and Broad? Hence why he doesn't have a problem with playing in the same team as them again. The comments against bullying as i understand it were initially made to the captain and coach in order to try and protect some of the less strong characters in the England team.

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Post by Azzy on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:40 pm

You only have to look at the number of talented English players who have 'failed' to integrate with the England team over the last ten years. Compton. Robson. Finn. Carberry. Ambrose. Bopara. Saj Mahmood. Plenty of guys who haven't been given a fair chance, and it is highly unlikely that at least some of those are due to them not fitting in with the Cosy Club (TM).

And I think you'll find Graeme Swann's book began this cycle of attrition. Swann, who is a renowned big mouth, bottler, quitter, money-chaser and quite frankly a dishonourable person. If Swann says one thing, I'll believe the other, as he's as two-faced as you get. Swann, who helped - who else - Prior and Broad - run the Twitter parody account.

KP has been the victim of the greatest cover-up, and the most damaging cricketing years, in English history. Give it another few years and I'm sure we'll find out exactly how toxic the dressing room was with the Cosy Club ruling the roost.

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Post by JDizzle on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:45 pm

Christ, you know you need to put the tinfoil hats away when we are suggesting that Saj Mahmood was dropped for not integrating with the rest of the team, and not that he couldn't land it on the cut strip.

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Post by Rowley on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:48 pm

JDizzle wrote:Christ, you know you need to put the tinfoil hats away when we are suggesting that Saj Mahmood was dropped for not integrating with the rest of the team, and not that he couldn't land it on the cut strip.

I think that is why my test career never really took off. I have always believed it was my inherent lack of fitness or anything resembling sporting ability. Maybe there were darker forces at work all along.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:51 pm

Azzy wrote:You only have to look at the number of talented English players who have 'failed' to integrate with the England team over the last ten years. Compton. Robson. Finn. Carberry. Ambrose. Bopara. Saj Mahmood. Plenty of guys who haven't been given a fair chance, and it is highly unlikely that at least some of those are due to them not fitting in with the Cosy Club (TM).

And I think you'll find Graeme Swann's book began this cycle of attrition. Swann, who is a renowned big mouth, bottler, quitter, money-chaser and quite frankly a dishonourable person. If Swann says one thing, I'll believe the other, as he's as two-faced as you get. Swann, who helped - who else - Prior and Broad - run the Twitter parody account.

KP has been the victim of the greatest cover-up, and the most damaging cricketing years, in English history. Give it another few years and I'm sure we'll find out exactly how toxic the dressing room was with the Cosy Club ruling the roost.

Good heavens, is this a serious post, or one parodying the rabid KP defenders?

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Post by Azzy on Tue 12 May 2015, 10:35 pm

Deadly serious. I don't like KP as a person, I don't think we should have Saffers, Aussies or Kiwis playing for England, but that's where we are. I stopped supporting the England football team when Gary Neville and Rio Ferdinand took the England squad to the brink of a strike on the eve of a game - I am now doing the same under the Cosy Club (TM) regime. They have zero interest in what is good for English cricket. What's the message, work hard, score runs, be a good little boy and keep your mouth shut or else you'll never play for us?

Pathetic.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 10:48 pm

Azzy wrote:Deadly serious. I don't like KP as a person, I don't think we should have Saffers, Aussies or Kiwis playing for England, but that's where we are. I stopped supporting the England football team when Gary Neville and Rio Ferdinand took the England squad to the brink of a strike on the eve of a game - I am now doing the same under the Cosy Club (TM) regime. They have zero interest in what is good for English cricket. What's the message, work hard, score runs, be a good little boy and keep your mouth shut or else you'll never play for us?

Pathetic.

Azzy you know there is far more to it than that. He'd already transgressed with Text-gate and got re-integrated into the side and probably warned about his future conduct so the when he lost his place in the side - it is simple you keep your gob shut, go away and work to get back into the side. Simples. But no he then brings out a ruddy book slating team-mates with allegations I find fanciful to say the least. What the hell did he expect after that? Go on tell me.

In any line of work now it is a sackable offence to even go onto Facebook and criticise management in any way. This book went far further and yet you are saying he still should get back in the side?? Sorry...no, no and thrice no.
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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 12 May 2015, 11:44 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Azzy you know there is far more to it than that. He'd already transgressed with Text-gate and got re-integrated into the side and probably warned about his future conduct so the when he lost his place in the side - it is simple you keep your gob shut, go away and work to get back into the side. Simples. But no he then brings out a ruddy book slating team-mates with allegations I find fanciful to say the least. What the hell did he expect after that? Go on tell me.

In any line of work now it is a sackable offence to even go onto Facebook and criticise management in any way. This book went far further and yet you are saying he still should get back in the side?? Sorry...no, no and thrice no.

Craig - I follow the tenet of your argument and have a lot of time for it (imo previous posts demonstrate we are both reasonable men Wink ).

However, didn't Graves by jumping the gun in every sense (he's still not yet even in office) and offering Pietersen an olive branch effectively create a new starting date for this messy saga? I rather think he did. Since then, Pietersen has played ball on and off the field. The ECB have now managed to create a situation whereby many - myself included - who are not immediate supporters of Pietersen the man feel he has been hard done by and in his words tonight ''led down the garden path''.

As a side issue (and this is not aimed at you, Craig), I am glad that comments disparaging his triple century appear to be quietening down. Posts that he was dropped four times before reaching three figures are simply untrue (he offered a very hard low return chance to Naik in the 90s - that was it then, there were other difficult chances and half-chances later). The innings was masterful as he exhibited patience that turned into dominance that turned into mayhem whilst brilliantly marshalling the tail. That doesn't mean he has to be selected for England but it makes a nonsense of anyone suggesting that as a batsman (regardless of any other issues) he is no longer worthy of consideration.

The above leads on to something that Strauss said which particularly irked me. He talked of ''planning for the future''. That seemed a secondary excuse for ditching Pietersen as if he was soon to become too old. Serious question - when does the future begin? Doesn't it include this summer's Ashes series?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 11:48 pm

Of course I have said in multiple threads the ECB have handled this dreadfully - no two ways about it but it doesn't change the end decision and neither should it.
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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 13 May 2015, 12:08 am

I still have difficulty accepting the validity of a decision when it has been made and explained so appallingly.

Ah well, I believe there may be something interesting from Surrey at lunchtime.

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Post by KP_fan on Wed 13 May 2015, 4:18 am

Strauss is in an unenviable position.
Started his job with an agenda which was as much his own, as given by someone ( can't say who).

And the agenda same Flowersque---Trust, comfort, happy dressing room...instead of 'do what you can to win'
The KP saga has diverted attention from the debacle in WI or that Eng has fallen to No.5 in test rankings....that's the bottom half.

So Strauss's job is unenviable....because he has eight difficult tests ahead....NZ are the team of 2015 and 'then comes Aus.

The team that picks mentally weak Trott and leaves out their best spinner Treadwell and hence loses to the no.8 test side will find it highly improbable to over come even NZ.

And while conveniently side-lined now......it will be obvious sooner...it's only about winning.
And teams have to do all they can to win.
Professional sport is not a non Profit NGO
But rather a bottom line driven corporation.

So if they can't beat NZ cook will lose his job ( as a captain) and somewhere midst of Ashes Strauss may have to eat the humble pie and be forced to bring back KP
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Post by kingraf on Wed 13 May 2015, 6:28 am

To be honest... all Strauss had to say was

- KP averages 34 in his last ten matches
- KP's chronic fitness issues represent a concern
- Joe Root has scored more hundreds in his 25 Test career than KP has in his last 50 Tests. Ergo that's our #4.
- We only really have an openers slot left, and KP is somewhere near the back of the line for that.

Even if you ignore Textgate, seems reasonable enough. What I've really liked is a guy like Graeme Smith playing hypocrite on a rarefied level. He got Lance Klusener fired for less, and had Gibbs' contract torn up after his auto... and yet he doesn't understand why Strauss would even...

Doos
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Post by msp83 on Wed 13 May 2015, 7:23 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Azzy wrote:Deadly serious. I don't like KP as a person, I don't think we should have Saffers, Aussies or Kiwis playing for England, but that's where we are. I stopped supporting the England football team when Gary Neville and Rio Ferdinand took the England squad to the brink of a strike on the eve of a game - I am now doing the same under the Cosy Club (TM) regime. They have zero interest in what is good for English cricket. What's the message, work hard, score runs, be a good little boy and keep your mouth shut or else you'll never play for us?

Pathetic.

Azzy you know there is far more to it than that. He'd already transgressed with Text-gate and got re-integrated into the side and probably warned about his future conduct so the when he lost his place in the side - it is simple you keep your gob shut, go away and work to get back into the side. Simples. But no he then brings out a ruddy book slating team-mates with allegations I find fanciful to say the least. What the hell did he expect after that? Go on tell me.

In any line of work now it is a sackable offence to even go onto Facebook and criticise management in any way. This book went far further and yet you are saying he still should get back in the side?? Sorry...no, no and thrice no.
He 'lost his place'!!!!. Sorry that is , well I don't know how to describe that. He was not dropped on form grounds, it was not even a drop as such, he was sacked, his contract paid out, his character assassinated, all these without a credible explanation....... So how exactly was he supposed to work his way back? By licking the boots of Alastair Cook, Paul Downton and others? What on earth are you talking about?
And you talk about textgate, and I see you are silent on the parity twitter account set up by Stuart Broad and others. Of course you must be believing the ECB version that it was created in Broad's house by a friend without his knowledge? Of course you would consider it in great team spirit that Matt Prior and a few other players followed this disparaging twitter account? Of course you would consider it brilliant management by Strauss and Flower that they took no action on this attempt at raising the spirits of the side? #strausslogic!!!!
As an aside, have you read Graeme Swann's book?

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Post by kingraf on Wed 13 May 2015, 7:39 am

Textgate is a lot worse than the Twitter account. The Autobiography though was the death knell. And I can't believe it was written without him realising this was the point of no return. The CEO was wrong to give him false hope, but that's what happens when non cricketing people are in charge.

Also it's worth noting that KP hasn't exactly been pivotal to continued success.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 13 May 2015, 1:07 pm

msp83 wrote:Exactly which rule says that criticizing your employer on social media is a sackable offense?
It is a common law/rule within all companies I know of. Run a check on it if you wish and you will find it is correct.
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Post by Azzy on Wed 13 May 2015, 1:09 pm

alfie wrote:Yeah I can't disagree with much of that , guildford.

Point by point :  I am in no doubt that Pietersen is still good enough to play for England. The innings you were just privileged to witness merely underscores that. But I suppose the question is whether or not he is still good enough to make his selection practically compulsory ? Having regard to age , fitness issues , and arguably a recent falling off in consistency , I'd suggest that is not quite so obvious...
Incidentally : it does seem he did indeed "marshall the tail" rather well in this innings. Which is interesting ; because one of the things that annoyed me in Australia in 2013 was that he made virtually no effort to do so. Symptom of disconnection ?

From all accounts he does seem to be happily settled at Surrey . Perhaps because he isn't there all that often ? Strike that , was a joke really ...but it is somewhat at odds with his past record in more than one place , is it not ? Perhaps the "last chance " thing is apposite ...or perhaps it is a sign of growing maturity.

Point three is the hard one for me. I was surprised when Graves stuck his oar in ( but then I was surprised when KP was defenestrated in the first place !) ... But to be honest I was even more surprised he actually did go to such trouble to take him up on his offer.  Having done that , I agree it must have been galling to be put off again.( Not that I would have been rushing to pick him ; but I'd have preferred not to have seen him blanked for the while summer in advance)

Thing is though (and here I'm feeling awkward about trying to see this from all angles and coming across as totally indecisive ) : Graves was able to fly a kite without much in the way of consequences  - and without access to much direct knowledge of all the background. Strauss , though , was at the centre of it all ; and is directly responsible for what goes on from here : he has much more to lose if his decisions bring harm rather than gain for England. And whatever sympathy one might have for Pietersen , it is surely England's interest that must come first , would you not agree ?
I am quite sure Strauss has made his decision from a belief that this is best for the team : suggestions that he is just victimizing KP out of spite are ludicrous , in my opinion  - though if there is some subconscious bias working in there , is it so surprising ? And who should we blame for that ?
The ECB clearly messed up the whole thing 16 months ago . But we can't undo that now.  I think "unbanning" him is a step in the right direction ; but I'd have preferred to have had him left with at least the possibility of selection later in the summer. Presume Strauss doesn't fancy the risk of a KP return during the Ashes so elected to rule it out from the off. He was quite candid that it was a "Trust" issue ; and that even after the summer he could offer no guarantee things would change. One could say he at least has not led KP any further up the garden path...perhaps it is a pity he didn't have charge of things in early 2014...

I do have some sympathy for KP . But I can be a bit ruthless when it comes to team versus individual ; so I am staying on the "sorry , mate , but that's how it is " side of the issue.
That is a measured, well-written assessment of the situation. I wish we had people like you running the ECB instead of the Cosy Club (TM) and Colin "Wackadoodle" Graves.

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Post by Pal Joey on Wed 13 May 2015, 1:13 pm

Due to overwhelming popularity I have split KP_fan's article.
Please continue the discussions here:

http://www.606v2.com/t58961-kp-of-the-overflow-continued#3025568
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